Daz VRAM implications/limitations with Daz and GPU choice.

[Crepusculum]

Hey Guys,
My buddy and i want to (eventually) create an AVN, and we're new to DAZ and rendering as a whole, at first my instinct was to get a 4080 (sigh, yes i know), but then i read some posts in the DAZ forum talking about how VRAM is the actual limit, as in "With enough VRAM you could do anything, and the GPU speed will determine how long it takes, but if you have less VRAM, what you can do is limited, no matter how fast you do it." - They even called a GPU with low ram a "Paperweight with LEDs" (for rendering)

If this is true, that made me realize going for a 4080 (16GB) would be a bad decision.
On the BadIK thread a few examples were given for progress, such as screenshots from E2, E4 and E9:




Seeing those the first time i thought "Processing power increased each time!", is this actually what more VRAM can allow? not speed/power?
In the post they spoke about: Significantly more actors, Improved lighting system, Soft shadows, Volumetric smoke, Ambient occlusion, Higher quality textures, etc. Which to my newfound understanding, are ALL limited by VRAM, not rendering speed?

So first, i would like to ask if my understanding is correct (VRAM is the true limit of how pretty/full a scene can look), and second, a recommendation.
Putting experience aside, i would like to theoretically be able to create scenes like the one from E9, is that something that can be performed with 24GB of ram? or maybe two NVLINKed 3090s? (Im not sure if memory pooling works for DAZ)?

If VRAM is the actual most important parameter, would a 3090TI and a 4090 be able to produce the exact same complexity in a scene, only at different speeds?
Thanks!

 

[mickydoo]

Yes your terminology is right.

If you can afford it a 4080 go for it, remember though a big fast card wont make you render any better, you will just put out shit renders at a faster rate.

 

[Crepusculum]

Yes your terminology is right.

If you can afford it a 4080 go for it, remember though a big fast card wont make you render any better, you will just put out shit renders at a faster rate.

Thank you,
So a 4090/3090, both with 24gb can produce the same renders at different speeds.

Also, are you saying 16gb will produce shit renders? As in 16 isn't remotely enough? Does that mean 24Gb also isn't enough?

 

[mickydoo]

I'm saying any card will produce shit renders, they just do it at different speeds. If you are going to fork out a few grand on a card, you still need to learn how to render. My card only has 8 gig and I plod along just fine.

 

[GNVE]

More VRAM is more Better generally speaking. So when choosing between a 4000 series GPU or a 3000 series GPU with more VRAM I'd go for the 3000 series GPU with more VRAM.
However that doesn't mean you cannot make the same scenes with less VRAM. I've made decently populated scenes with my 2070 like this one:

It just means that you will need to use workarounds more often to render the scene in parts and stitch them together after the fact.

Another thing to think about is that VRAM will only be used when rendering. While making the scene you also want a decent CPU and lots of regular RAM. As you can build up your scene better before cutting it into pieces for rendering.

But as Mickeydoo said. no amount of money can make you good at rendering in itself. (I am not amazing at it but I do well enough for what I want to do.) It takes some practice to gain the skills necessary so before spending a lot of money just try to render some scenes with whatever you have and see if you like it.

 

[Crepusculum]

Right, of course, i know this is an art form and i am in no way trying to take away from the amazing work people can do.
And to a novice like me, that scene looks really really good, wouldn't have imagined that this didn't require a super expensive rig!

I'm new to this and wanted to make sure i understood correctly.
it DOES however, seem like low VRAM can (and like you said, CPU, RAM) can indirectly actually put a cap on quality and skill, because, for example, i assume that all of the things that were mentioned in the BaDIK post (Improved lighting system, Soft shadows, Volumetric smoke, Ambient occlusion, Higher quality textures) require more processing power - and while simply adding them won't make me better, i won't be able to add them and get better at utilizing them if i lack the power/VRAM to do so.

I neglected to mention that my buddy and i are both games, so we're already were going to buy an expensive GPU anyway - so a small adjustment or adding a few hundred $ is not a difficulty decision.

We're probably going to purchase a 3090TI 24GB and a 4080 16GB (each gets one) that way we have an answer for simpler renders that we want to churn out quickly, and still have 24GB to work without limit, or, a very high limit, if i understood correctly.

 

[MidnightArrow]

Path tracing renderers are deterministic. They produce the same output no matter if they're rendering on a 4090 or a CPU. The GPU can only determine how quickly the calculations are done, which is limited by how many textures it can fit onto its VRAM.

"Significantly more actors"

Daz figures are very texture heavy, so this is correct. Note that those images also use billboards, which are flat pictures of figures.

"Improved lighting system"

Aside from the speed calculations are done, the GPU has no effect on the lighting.

"Soft shadows"

The GPU has no effect on shadows, unless they mean it resolves noise faster?

"Volumetric smoke"

This is a feature of the render engine. A faster GPU will help, but it won't look any different.

"Ambient occlusion"

Iray doesn't have ambient occlusion, it's a path tracing renderer.

"Higher quality textures"

You can fit more high-quality textures into VRAM, but it won't look any different than if you render on the CPU.

 

[drconfused]

I haven't checked much about E9 but do wonder if they are using canvases as well.

 

[mickydoo]

This is done on a 3060ti with 8 gig or vram


Thats spot rendering things together. The more characters you put in a scene the harder it is to light the scene correctly in the first place, way before you hit the render button. Thats about render number 15000 I have ever done, it just takes practise.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Hey Guys,
My buddy and i want to (eventually) create an AVN, and we're new to DAZ and rendering as a whole, at first my instinct was to get a 4080 (sigh, yes i know), but then i read some posts in the DAZ forum talking about how VRAM is the actual limit, as in "With enough VRAM you could do anything, and the GPU speed will determine how long it takes, but if you have less VRAM, what you can do is limited, no matter how fast you do it." - They even called a GPU with low ram a "Paperweight with LEDs" (for rendering)

If this is true, that made me realize going for a 4080 (16GB) would be a bad decision.
On the BadIK thread a few examples were given for progress, such as screenshots from E2, E4 and E9:

Seeing those the first time i thought "Processing power increased each time!", is this actually what more VRAM can allow? not speed/power?
In the post they spoke about: Significantly more actors, Improved lighting system, Soft shadows, Volumetric smoke, Ambient occlusion, Higher quality textures, etc. Which to my newfound understanding, are ALL limited by VRAM, not rendering speed?

So first, i would like to ask if my understanding is correct (VRAM is the true limit of how pretty/full a scene can look), and second, a recommendation.
Putting experience aside, i would like to theoretically be able to create scenes like the one from E9, is that something that can be performed with 24GB of ram? or maybe two NVLINKed 3090s? (Im not sure if memory pooling works for DAZ)?

If VRAM is the actual most important parameter, would a 3090TI and a 4090 be able to produce the exact same complexity in a scene, only at different speeds?
Thanks!

People in red circles a simple 2D planes. I guess if you didn't see it, he did a good job. Last one is more tricky but could be achieved with several tweaks (degraded shaders, convert rigged figures to simple OBJ, render in layers front to back, converted into 2D planes...). A good chunk of VRAM will surely help & it's super comfy, but it's not everything tho.

That said I will go for VRAM pool for your typical Daz/Iray VN if money is not the problem.

 

[Crepusculum]

Path tracing renderers are deterministic. They produce the same output no matter if they're rendering on a 4090 or a CPU. The GPU can only determine how quickly the calculations are done, which is limited by how many textures it can fit onto its VRAM.

"Significantly more actors"
Daz figures are very texture heavy, so this is correct. Note that those images also use billboards, which are flat pictures of figures.
"Improved lighting system"
Aside from the speed calculations are done, the GPU has no effect on the lighting.
"Soft shadows"
The GPU has no effect on shadows, unless they mean it resolves noise faster?
"Volumetric smoke"
This is a feature of the render engine. A faster GPU will help, but it won't look any different.
"Ambient occlusion"
Iray doesn't have ambient occlusion, it's a path tracing renderer.
"Higher quality textures"
You can fit more high-quality textures into VRAM, but it won't look any different than if you render on the CPU.

ooofff, i have a lot to learn then, i was so bombarded with all of the fancy terms, seems like most of them are irrelevant.
it sounds like when you made a scene there aren't tons of fancy effects to throw at it to make it look better, its all about the artist.

This is done on a 3060ti with 8 gig or vram
View attachment 2268001

Thats spot rendering things together. The more characters you put in a scene the harder it is to light the scene correctly in the first place, way before you hit the render button. Thats about render number 15000 I have ever done, it just takes practise.

Ok, i don't know what spot rendering is (yet!) but this render looks incredible.
We're only getting started and have much to learn, starting from the terminology

View attachment 2269043

People in red circles a simple 2D planes. I guess if you didn't see it, he did a good job. Last one is more tricky but could be achieved with several tweaks (degraded shaders, convert rigged figures to simple OBJ, render in layers front to back, converted into 2D planes...). A good chunk of VRAM will surely help & it's super comfy, but it's not everything tho.

That said I will go for VRAM pool for your typical Daz/Iray VN if money is not the problem.

No, i haven't noticed, does he use those in the E9 image as well?
And doesn't VRAM pooling require NVLINK (which isn't supported on new GPUs?)

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

No, i haven't noticed, does he use those in the E9 image as well?
And doesn't VRAM pooling require NVLINK (which isn't supported on new GPUs?)

I doubt it from the look of it but he could as well made & inserted few of them in the pack, to make thing less obvious. A "fake people" 2D plane is just an image (in that case a figure with its shadow), shawn on a plane with an opacity mask (made either via a canvas or PS) aligned to your camera. But again, there is more than one way to render such a scene without going all-in with vanilla assets, it's difficult to determine which one he chose.

By VRAM pool, I mean total amount of VRAM not Nvlink'd cards, my bad.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Yes your terminology is right.

If you can afford it a 4080 go for it, remember though a big fast card wont make you render any better, you will just put out shit renders at a faster rate.

lol

 

[Crepusculum]

I doubt it from the look of it but he could as well made & inserted few of them in the pack, to make thing less obvious. A "fake people" 2D plane is just an image (in that case a figure with its shadow), shawn on a plane with an opacity mask (made either via a canvas or PS) aligned to your camera. But again, there is more than one way to render such a scene without going all-in with vanilla assets, it's difficult to determine which one he chose.

By VRAM pool, I mean total amount of VRAM not Nvlink'd cards, my bad.

Ok i see
it looks like high VRAM can be circumvented in many many many ways, the better you are.
so it looks like unless we really get good at this and start doing very complex scenes, the 16GB option won't be very restrictive.
It also looks like Daz3D is getting some efficiency/utilization updates these days, which is nice to see.

lol

Lol yeah that " put out shit renders at a faster rate " was painful, yet also true!

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Ok i see
it looks like high VRAM can be circumvented in many many many ways, the better you are.
so it looks like unless we really get good at this and start doing very complex scenes, the 16GB option won't be very restrictive.
It also looks like Daz3D is getting some efficiency/utilization updates these days, which is nice to see.


Lol yeah that " put out shit renders at a faster rate " was painful, yet also true!

In a way yes, that one way to put it.
Keep in mind rendering time (ie raw power) can also be circumvented in many way (without destructive behavior).
16gb should do just fine for 95% of your scenes. It's a more difficult debate than in the past as 4/8gb gap is way more sensible matter than a 16/24gb one, maybe more akin to personal preference. I would go for VRAM all things considered but it's not some obvious choice.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Ok i see
it looks like high VRAM can be circumvented in many many many ways, the better you are.
so it looks like unless we really get good at this and start doing very complex scenes, the 16GB option won't be very restrictive.
It also looks like Daz3D is getting some efficiency/utilization updates these days, which is nice to see.


Lol yeah that " put out shit renders at a faster rate " was painful, yet also true!

I think we all were there and maybe we still are.
Nothing wrong with that.
It's a learning process like any other hobby. GPU is an asset but doesn't mean it makes great renders. That is you. You alone.

 

[Crepusculum]

Thank you everyone for your kind help.