Walkthrough Mods in VN, the revenge

[demonbra]

Some time ago some of us were exchanging our thoughts about mods in VN, especially Walkthrough mods, in this thread.

Recently I found a game that perfectly illustrated my point on that matter :

Beauty and the Thug.

I liked the graphics, the story hooked me, was a bit repetitive but it was okay. And then, poof, I finished the current build.
So I thought “okay, let’s see what’s left, what did I missed.”
I took a look in the gallery and SUPRISE ! It appeared that I missed 2/3 of the sex scenes !
What ? How ?

I didn’t especially tried to prevent MC from having sex. Sure I rejected one character, but other than that, I tried to build a relationship with most of them.

Using the gallery mod I discovered that I missed a lot of things, even with characters I actively tried to “build a relationship” (to say it politely).

And this is exactly what I wanted to point out :
Arbitrary variables, arbitrary decisions with hidden consequences, are the reason why WT mods exist… It’s even worse here because the game is some kind of Sand-Box with a scripted calender and a time limit, so if you waste some opportunities, you’re fucked, you missed a lot of content for your entire playthrough.

2/3 of the game… that Dev took the time to create... and I missed... without real reason.
Maybe I was very “bad” at this game and other people managed to see more without “cheating”, but I won’t waste more time trying other possibilities. I will take a look again after a few updates , but for now I am not going to spend more time to try to find the “right” path to see the content I would have wanted to see in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed playing it. But I find it very frustrating to learn that I should have get more if I had been aware of the “right” way to play the game.

 

[Meaning Less]

If you enjoyed the experience like you said I don't see the issue. If anything this is a good motivator to start another playthrough and make different choices to unlock stuff you missed, that's how people play vns and why there are hundreds of save slots in renpy.

And if you are already tired of the game you could just go directly for the walkthrough now, or even faster the gallery unlocker.

 

[demonbra]

If you enjoyed the experience like you said I don't see the issue. If anything this is a good motivator to start another playthrough and make different choices to unlock stuff you missed, that's how people play vns and why there are hundreds of save slots in renpy.

And if you are already tired of the game you could just go directly for the walkthrough now, or even faster the gallery unlocker.

IDK if you played it yourself but it's not a game I will enjoy playing again and again. Besides, I already looked at the content I missed, so there is no real point doing it.

As for the gallery, it only shows the render, not the associated dialogues. So it spoiled me the images, without really showing me the scenes.
So no, I won't play again before a while.

 

[Meaning Less]

IDK if you played it yourself but it's not a game I will enjoy playing again and again.

My question to you would be which experience would make for a more fulfilling first playthrough experience?
1. Having to stop and ponder what action you wish to take during each dialogue and dealing with their consequences as you go.
2. Just clicking the green button without even thinking or being surprised regardless of how weird the choice you are making is, just because you know it will be the choice that will unlock more scenes.

I don't know about you but I always go with a blind playthrough first on every game, it is much more satisfying to figure out what choices lead to what consequences on your own. Missing content is not a problem but an actual feature of vns.

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you enjoyed the experience like you said I don't see the issue.

Totally agree.
Of course, a walkthrough permit to see more content, but it them come with a price: You enjoy the game less, because you don't play it anymore as it please you, but as you're told to.

It always amaze me to see that there's completion fanatics even on the adult scene. Of all games, they are the ones that fully and totally focus on enjoyment, whatever carnal or purely mental. Yet there's people who still play them compulsively, trying to reach a 100% and complaining when they can't.

 

[demonbra]

Totally agree.
Of course, a walkthrough permit to see more content, but it them come with a price: You enjoy the game less, because you don't play it anymore as it please you, but as you're told to.

It always amaze me to see that there's completion fanatics even on the adult scene. Of all games, they are the ones that fully and totally focus on enjoyment, whatever carnal or purely mental. Yet there's people who still play them compulsively, trying to reach a 100% and complaining when they can't.

I can say the same thing :
If you play without WT, you might enjoy the game more, but you will miss half the content. Which is exactly what I did. I played as I wanted to play but missed 2/3 of the scenes...

Now we already had this conversation and my intention was not to start this debate again.

I already agreed in the past that hand-holding is killing video games, games in general, not only porn oriented ones.

But this one is a perfect example of a game I can barely play without a WT. Because if you play like you feel to, you won't see much. At least that's my experience with it. And I find it a shame as I liked playing the way I played and am not very interested to play differently.
Edit : and not because you rejected some characters or fetishes, but because you made some decisions that somehow block some content, using some dark magic that is beyond my understanding for now (like : if exibition >= 10 ).

Just give it a try if you have 30min-1h free. Otherwise it doesn't bring much to talk about it.

We already exchanged our experiences and opinions on games in general.

 

[Uthuriel]

Totally agree.
Of course, a walkthrough permit to see more content, but it them come with a price: You enjoy the game less, because you don't play it anymore as it please you, but as you're told to.

Huh... almost like reading a book... who knew...

 

[anne O'nymous]

If you play without WT, you might enjoy the game more, but you will miss half the content.

And so ? There's games that are designed in such way that you can't have more than half the content, and they are still entertaining and enjoyable that way.
Plus, it's not like you payed for the game and therefore feel the need to have enough content for your money.

I played as I wanted to play but missed 2/3 of the scenes...

And so ? It's only when I started to works on my mod for it, that I seen more than 1/10th of Super Powered, what never prevented me to enjoy playing it ; I wouldn't have made a mod for it else.

Now we already had this conversation and my intention was not to start this debate again.

Then why starting a new thread ? And don't answer, "because the original one is old", you necroed it to point to this thread. You totally wanted to start the debate again.

Huh... almost like reading a book... who knew...

i get that you have read many books. They are straight forward, you know, like Kinetic novels. You don't need to look at something else in order to know what page you should read next in order to have the full content.

 

[Uthuriel]

...

So? I still use a WT for most AVNs I play...
I don't give a shit about the bad endings... I want the good one(s).
I play to win and not to lose, otherwise I'd be playing NTR games.

 

[demonbra]

Then why starting a new thread ? And don't answer, "because the original one is old", you necroed it to point to this thread. You totally wanted to start the debate again.

So let me rephrase : I am not interested in having this conversation again IF we simply throw the same opinions and remarks at each other.
I only did this because after playing this one particular game, I remember that we had this conversation in the past and I thought I could point it as an example. And as it wasn't my thread and nobody likes necro-posts I created a new one, while giving credit to the original. My objective was not to have it all over again.
And as I already said, I agree for the most part.

As for your other points. I don't know what to say, so I'll just leave it to that.

 

[Jaike]

I haven't played the game, but sounds like your issue is in essence about "rewards" hidden behind blind, maybe "illogical" choices. Like a MC decides to buy flowers for his wife, there's a choice between red and white roses. White roses: "O their my favorite, lets have sex!" Red roses: "How could you, you knew I'm allergic for red roses. I wanna divorce!"

I think players who're in it for the rewards mostly want three types of choice: Blind consequential choices where the branches are different but all interesting in their own way, that's btw very labour-intensive, choices to opt in or out for certain, perhaps controversial content, and "logical" choices for "better" results. That type one is very subjective, because what's logical and good, is very different for someone who wants romance than for someone who likes creepy loser MCs. Of course in many games it's obvious what playstyle is needed.

Now a dev can have good storyline reason for hiding a reward behind a blind dilemma, but that kind of player isn't going to like that type of choice.

 

[woody554]

if you want to have meaningful choices, every choice cuts out a story branch. the only way you can get all scenes is if none of the choices make ANY difference and you're just railroaded along.

 

[demonbra]

I haven't played the game, but sounds like your issue is in essence about "rewards" hidden behind blind, maybe "illogical" choices. Like a MC decides to buy flowers for his wife, there's a choice between red and white roses. White roses: "O their my favorite, lets have sex!" Red roses: "How could you, you knew I'm allergic for red roses. I wanna divorce!"

I think players who're in it for the rewards mostly want three types of choice: Blind consequential choices where the branches are different but all interesting in their own way, that's btw very labour-intensive, choices to opt in or out for certain, perhaps controversial content, and "logical" choices for "better" results. That type one is very subjective, because what's logical and good, is very different for someone who wants romance than for someone who likes creepy loser MCs. Of course in many games it's obvious what playstyle is needed.

Now a dev can have good storyline reason for hiding a reward behind a blind dilemma, but that kind of player isn't going to like that type of choice.

It wasn't as horrible as a blind binary choice. I rapidly gave it another shot, so I can stop being vague.

But I agree, those are the main choices types.

- Interesting, but half blind path can be great if the story is complex and appealing. Then I would want to play again, but not to reach a goal, but because I legitimately ask myself "what would have happened if I chose B instead of A". I honestly don't remember having this reaction in many porn games... But I agree it's difficult and it requires a lot of work (like, to double the game...). Can happen in games with a dark and a light path. Once you've done one you probably want to test the other.

- Content choices don't need any more comments. I consider them a must have, but that's really just my opinion.

- Logical choices... Is where the problems arrive ^^

I guess we could add to your list "completely blind choices but with one being good and the other(s) bad". My personal favorite... I didn't see those very often (thank god) but a few Devs are quite fan of them.


What happen in this game is a bit different. I think I locked some content away because I hadn’t enough points in certain variables. But the way to get the variables isn't clear at all. You don't have that many "question choices", but more a choice between different activities that can unlock different features (you don't know which ones) and even after testing different combinations you still don't know what does what, or if it does anything at all...
So that plus the fact that you are time limited... At the end I missed 2/3 of the content. Let's say 1/2, with the rest being stuff I am not interested in.

I don't quite understand the game design strategy behind this system and I feel this game is almost begging for a WT mod. But juddging from the comments it seams that I'm the only one.

 

[demonbra]

if you want to have meaningful choices, every choice cuts out a story branch. the only way you can get all scenes is if none of the choices make ANY difference and you're just railroaded along.

True. But that's not really what I am nagging about here.

 

[Jaike]

But I agree, those are the main choices types.

- Interesting, but half blind path can be great if the story is complex and appealing. Then I would want to play again, but not to reach a goal, but because I legitimately ask myself "what would have happened if I chose B instead of A". I honestly don't remember having this reaction in many porn games... But I agree it's difficult and it requires a lot of work (like, to double the game...). Can happen in games with a dark and a light path. Once you've done one you probably want to test the other.

- Content choices don't need any more comments. I consider them a must have, but that's really just my opinion.

- Logical choices... Is where the problems arrive ^^

I guess we could add to your list "completely blind choices but with one being good and the other(s) bad". My personal favorite... I didn't see those very often (thank god) but a few Devs are quite fan of them.

Just making clear, I intended it as a list of the choice types that reward-focused players may like. Didn't intend to put bad types on it.

What happen in this game is a bit different. I think I locked some content away because I hadn’t enough points in certain variables. But the way to get the variables isn't clear at all. You don't have that many "question choices", but more a choice between different activities that can unlock different features (you don't know which ones) and even after testing different combinations you still don't know what does what, or if it does anything at all...
So that plus the fact that you are time limited... At the end I missed 2/3 of the content. Let's say 1/2, with the rest being stuff I am not interested in.

I don't quite understand the game design strategy behind this system and I feel this game is almost begging for a WT mod. But juddging from the comments it seams that I'm the only one.

Ah, the good old stat-based approach. Honestly it really can be very logical for the story to hide content behind stat thresholds. But often it just feels an arbitrary roadblock. I remember a game with a female protagonist where some scenes with men didn't show if the "lesbian" stat was too high. And then some on here refer to that game as a "bi game".

 

[demonbra]

Just making clear, I intended it as a list of the choice types that reward-focused players may like. Didn't intend to put bad types on it.

Oh, thanks for the precision, I didn't got your point fully.

Ah, the good old stat-based approach. Honestly it really can be very logical for the story to hide content behind stat thresholds. But often it just feels an arbitrary roadblock. I remember a game with a female protagonist where some scenes with men didn't show if the "lesbian" stat was too high. And then some on here refer to that game as a "bi game".

HAHAHAHA. Haven't seen this one.
What annoys me especially here is that some characters are locked behind fetish points. Like this one girl in the sex-shop who is locked if you don't have enough anal points... But you can still have several scenes where you make-out with her without that. What ??? Of course it had to be one of the characters I was interested in...
So my natural reaction was to spend time (in a time limited game, keep it in mind...) to see her, except it doesn't bring anything... You have to do other actions (which I still haven't figured out).

Pure dating-sim / video game logic...

 

[anne O'nymous]

I play to win and not to lose, otherwise I'd be playing NTR games.

Bait too big, will not works.