VN What makes Sandboxes in most VNs bad? How would a dev get around common complaints about sandbox VNs?

creeperawmann

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Mar 5, 2020
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Not sure if Sandbox is the right word since its not really a 'real' sandbox but everyone knows what I mean

Milfy City

Summertime Saga

Big Brother

Man of the House

Midnight Paradise

so on and so on... we've all played games like these, you click on the rooms you want to go to, locations on the map, you click on the characters and progress that way, all these games are extremely popular. It feels like everyone likes the idea on paper but a vast majority of people complain about the sandboxes and say they are grindy, boring, and tiresome. What would be an ideal way around this? I'm interested in making a game that is a sandbox but I'm well aware of the criticisms that it has.
 

creeperawmann

Member
Mar 5, 2020
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255
The way I thought about maybe getting rid of some of the grind would be to have their faces appear in the rooms on the gui/locations on the map and if they have a scene that progresses and helps with their story their icon would have a little star or some sort of marker showing that they have a new event at their location, and obviously if they don't have a star/marker then they don't have a new event so you won't need to waste your time clicking on them.
 
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bobdickgus

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Apr 9, 2020
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Sandbox in these games usually masking lack of content with enforced tedium. Gating scenes behind locations and set times, usually multiple events on the same day/time slot so have to spend another week to see the next one which is totally rubbish.
These sandboxes have 0.1% of the content of a decent actual sandbox game which take teams of many people years to produce.
 

MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
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Aug 17, 2019
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The most common complaint you'll typically see for a sandbox is some variant of not having enough content versus their development time. Everything will basically lead to a dead end in early releases, so developers stretch out content by forcing players to search everywhere for something to artificially lengthen play time. Much in the same way RPGM games tend to do.

The games you listed have all been in development for actual years at this point. They've had time to get content, but I'm sure if you look early i their game threads, you'll see a lot of complaints about it being a sandbox, as well. So, the easiest way around avoiding the issues you see with other sandbox games is to pack the initial release with a lot of content. Not a working demo, not a POC, but a fully working, non-buggy, game. Second on that list is making an actually good UI, something SS did fairly well - even if it's more along the lines of BAD in that it's more of a quasi-sandbox than an actual one.

In short - do some of your own research. Look at game threads of newer sandbox games and see where the audience for it lies. What are they complaining about? What are they praising? Then see if it's possible for you, as something of a newbie, to emulate realistically.
 

Reaper297

New Member
Jun 24, 2020
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This is just my opinion, but I honestly think the biggest issue a lot of games on here suffer from, both sandbox and linear, is usually just poor planning or a lack thereof. The lack of content, grind, nonsensical stories, and repetition are, in my eyes, all symptoms of that one core issue.

I've lost count of the games released on here that started off strong only for development to come to a standstill months later because the developer realized they had no idea where their game was going. Even worse is when they try to reboot their game and they either fall into the same issues, or they simply get overwhelmed and just drop the game entirely. That's not even counting all of the games that get abandoned a week or so after the initial release.

So I guess I'd say the biggest thing you should focus on is actually planning your game out. Start small. Take a look at games you like and start picking them apart. Figure out what you like and dislike about those games, what works and what doesn't. Use that info to figure out how you want your own game to play and then prototype it. Once you've got it to a point where you like it, hand it out and have some friends/strangers test it. Use their feedback to make changes where needed and rinse and repeat until you've gotten it to a point where you're happy with the prototype. Then plan out your actual game.

Plot out your story so that it has a defined beginning and end(s). Figure out who your characters are, how they change or grow throughout the story. Plan out your scenes and dialogue. Figure out your medium(text based, visual novel, 3D, 2D), your assets(art, renders, models, sprites, sounds, music), and your budget if need be.

Once you've got all that figured out, pick your tools and start creating.
 

Deleted member 6168082

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Jun 5, 2023
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Sandboxes are repetitive as hell, especially when you are forced to grind to get money to buy some shit to progress the story. If I have to cheat, what's the point of even playing it? why make it a sandbox then if people will just cheat?

If the minigames were more fun to play and not repetitive, maybe that could make it a bit more enjoyable to play. Also, the lack of hints/help in these games suck ass. Help guide me on what I'm supposed to do and if I have to do something beforehand, explain it to me.

Content wise, even if it lacks content, if it's enjoyable, will the lack of content matter? just curious about this. I think something new needs to happen with them. A Dev needs to change it up from the norm. Easier said than done but I believe it can be done.

They should take all the complaints and just work to figure out a balance for all of them to workout. A decent amount of content + A better Hint/Help system + No Repetitive shit + No grinding, unless it's fun and enjoyable (I know, different people = different results but if you can hit a balance, it might be okay?) if we have to grind money, give us job options or so that are fun to do.

Not every sandbox game sucks but most do, to me anyways, especially when they have the issues mentioned above. Until something changes, sandbox is just not my go to for these games... I don't care how good the renders/sex scenes/LIs look
 

MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
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Aug 17, 2019
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This is just my opinion, but I honestly think the biggest issue a lot of games on here suffer from, both sandbox and linear, is usually just poor planning or a lack thereof. The lack of content, grind, nonsensical stories, and repetition are, in my eyes, all symptoms of that one core issue.
You advice is good, and should be taken by a newer developer nine times out of ten. But it's more general advice to newer developers than it is aimed at the actual post's topic. A sandbox VN and a linear/choice-based VN are completely different in most ways. Sure, this could apply to some sandbox games, but certainly not to all. Planning should be done irregardless, and is often what separates a bad game from a good one, but I don't know if it's right thing to throw over an entire genre of these games. There are far, far more to it than that.

Lack of content has nothing to do with planning. It's more based in that sandboxes take much longer to develop versus their more linear counterpart. More code, often more rendering, more story branching, more UI, more everything. There's so much for (often) one person to do that it just takes forever to put out a hefty amount of content. So, in a rush to make something off off the dozens of hours they work on something alone, they put out a nuts and bolts copy. Often criticized by the lack of said content because they pressured to put it out earlier than they should have.

The grind itself is often a result of the lack of content. They artificially lengthen the game by forcing a grind to make up for the lack of said content and making everything feel longer. Nonsensical stories/repetition can be found anywhere. Everyone can write a basic story, not everyone can write what is effectively a full-on novel. Could that be a lack of planning? Sure. But you could also call them a bad writer.

I'm not disagreeing with you, to be clear. You should plan. But there's layers to a conversation like this that "poor planning or a lack of thereof" just doesn't answer.
 

kinrean

Member
May 12, 2018
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i agree with what other have say mostly , but for me the worst is the clicking, it always make you click alot of pointless stuff, like walk / move to 1 place / searching around the map/ changing a set of clothing. the clicking waste alot of time and it can hurt the hand too.

i think if you want to make a sand box game you need to make game like a strategy game and not a story game. make the game around the system and not around the story.
 

GNVE

Active Member
Jul 20, 2018
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Well the number one mistake a lot of devs make is to start with "I want to make a sandbox game" rather than "I want to make a game. What should it be about? What game mechanics suit that type of game/story?" A sandbox is a mechanic not a type of game. As others have said some devs have a fully linear story in mind but force it into the mold of a sandbox.

Another issue is trying to be real life simulator. I don't know if you've noticed but real life is mostly boring with a few interesting bits in between. Most entertainment cuts out the boring bits and only shows the good stuff (can you imagine a TV show showing the main character sleeping for 8 entire hour long episodes). Even IRL our brains cuts out a lot of boring stuff (like not really remembering the commute to work). Recently I played a game that forced me to take a shower each day. I.e. busywork that I will assume the main character does in other games when not being shown.

Having to many locations. It is easier to fill up the sandbox when the location list is home, work, gym rather than living room, kitchen, dining room, tv room, game room, downstairs toilet, hall closet, entrance, stairs etc. This many locations also has the downside of the number of clicks a player does to get somewhere to increase exponentially. (where you generally want to limit those to three or less if at all possible).

Grind is an issue as has been said but it just means that whatever you are forcing the player to do is not interesting enough. Of course what is interesting to me may not be interesting to you. There are however things no player will find interesting. Think of the visit the gym 300 times to get character X interested in you. (I.e. click map, click gym, click exercise click map, click home, click sleep, repeat.)

Someone already said that it's an issue when three dozen things happen at one time. The opposite is also true however totally empty times. There are quite a few games where (late) night only exists so you can click on the bed to go to sleep. If it isn't used it shouldn't exist. I understand that if you only have morning, afternoon, evening that night exists in this world but isn't interesting so skipped.
 

Michelangelo da Mouso

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Nov 19, 2018
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Having to many locations. It is easier to fill up the sandbox when the location list is home, work, gym rather than living room, kitchen, dining room, tv room, game room, downstairs toilet, hall closet, entrance, stairs etc. This many locations also has the downside of the number of clicks a player does to get somewhere to increase exponentially. (where you generally want to limit those to three or less if at all possible).
I wanna believe it’s possible to create many areas without turning them into a labyrinth... but not everyone has the vision, planning, and technical skills to pull it off.

Often what happens is you start with an idea, and you keep building on what you’ve built, adding more and more, without ever looking back. In the end, you end up with a monstrous creation of epic proportions that devours the players' patience.


I'm not disagreeing with you, to be clear. You should plan. But there's layers to a conversation like this that "poor planning or a lack of thereof" just doesn't answer.
Ah, that, and the fact that people don't remove things that aren't fun.

To make a good game, you either have to be crystal clear on what’s fun or you need to be willing to change and remove things you've done in the past that aren't as entertaining as you thought they’d be. This is another sin of AVN devs.
 

exer

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Aug 16, 2017
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Something I haven't really seen mentioned is that anyone can always criticize anything. No matter how much planning you do or content you have or polish you put in a release, someone will still say something negative about it. For the simple fact that not everything is for everyone. These games that people complain about are incredibly successful, and a big part of that is because of the things being criticized.

And it boils down to a bit of a lack of understanding of how games work. Both from a lot of devs and from players. For one, a game can't be too easy. If everything gets handed to the player without them feeling like they earned it, then it isn't rewarding. Being rewarded for your efforts is a big part of what makes games fun. One of the most common ways to do this, is to make the player grind. By doing the grind people are then rewarded with the thing they wanted. The anticipation and work makes the reward satisfying. You just have to balance it so that the grind is worth the reward, and if you can disguise the grind to feel like gameplay then you've really succeeded. Which is the hard part. When a game first comes out, it's going to be basically impossible to get this balance. Especially when it comes to a sandbox game. Since you either have to only put in content meant for the first bit of the game, which is all the baby mode tutorial stuff that just gets handed to the player, and that's just not particularly engaging or fun. Or you have to add in some stuff meant for later to keep the player playing for longer and to better represent the game as a whole, but that will require a lot of grinding. Again, balance is what's important, but also impossible to get right at first. Unless you want to work for a full year or two without any kind of support or any kind of feedback if anyone will even like the game or not. Since until you have something out, you'll never really know if people like the idea enough to try it or not.

Another common way that game devs make a game rewarding, is forcing a player to do something they don't want to do. I always use the MJ stealth sections in Spider-Man PS4 as an example. Everyone hates those sections, because instead of swinging around the city beating up people with superpowers, you're forced to sit and wait and sneak around super slow with no real tools to help you. But these sections serve an incredibly important purpose to the game. By forcing you into a slower section and taking away all the tools you normally have, when you get back to being Spider-Man, it's incredibly refreshing and so much fun. The player has more fun than they were before, because they had to spend time doing something they didn't like. Without those sections, by that point of the game, the gameplay would start getting dull. You'd effectively be desensitized to it. So having a section people don't like and breaks up the normal gameplay flow, makes the game more fun for longer. People pretty universally say it's bad, but those "bad" sections make the game better. The length is even well balanced. They're just long enough for people to get annoyed, but not long enough to get people annoyed enough to drop the game. Just like before, it's all about having a good balance so that the game feels rewarding enough to be worth the investment.

In the context of adult games, things like area navigation and minigames that people complain about are the same things that keep them interested in the game. Again, these games people are criticizing have a ton of supporters and make a lot of money. Whether intentional or not, they're clearly designing their games in a way that's engaging. Trying to take out things just because people say they didn't like it, isn't a good idea.

So try not to just take criticism at face value. First try to figure out if the critcism is valid or not. If it is, then maybe it's not something to include. However, if it serves a purpose and it's just the player complaining without an understanding of why it's in the game, and still continues to play the game, then it's not something you're going to want to take out. That's something you should make sure to keep in. If someone doesn't like sandbox games, and complains about a staple of sandbox games, then it's not really valid criticism either. You're making a game for people who do like sandbox games and are there for those staple systems. Don't take things out just because someone who doesn't like the genre doesn't like them.

Also keep in mind, just because a certain type of person is vocal, that doesn't always reflect the real majority. The games you listed are all very popular games that got a lot of support. If the vocal criticisms about the games being things like "dull" or "boring" were valid, then the games wouldn't have ever gotten any support. Always look to your actual audience and supporters for feedback, not rando comments on piracy sites. The people who like the project enough to support it by following you places like Patreon or Twitter or Discord or whatever you use, that's your audience. That's who you should be worried about.

And lastly, don't worry about people saying you need to have things like a lot of content in a first release. I'd honestly argue the opposite. It's far more important to have a product out as early as possible, for a couple of reasons. For one, no matter how much content is in that first release, it's still a first release. Most people avoid games until they've had consistent updates. If you work for a year or two and release a game with hours and hours of content, people will still avoid it because it's a first release. It's better to get a proof of concept out, and see how that does after a few updates. I've made the mistake of working too long on a project before releasing anything. I spent years working on a game and then it released and no one played it, no one engaged with it or followed it, and it was DOA. Even after updating it, it still got nothing. People just weren't interested in the core premise, or characters, or whatever it was that kept people from trying it. A failure like that is always a possibility. Way better to get something more like a POC out and see if people try it. What I've done with my current project is release it as more of a POC and then dedicate a certain amount of time to pushing out continual updates. Since no one really plays first releases, I'm not judging on the project's success or failure until I hit that time and number of updates.
The other reason I'd argue against waiting to put something out is because the longer you wait, the longer you go without potential support. There's no reason so spend 2 years working for free on a project that people may just not like. On top of that, if you release earlier and get a good amount of support early on, you can make a better game in the same amount of time. Since if you're getting enough support, you can do things like hire other people to help work on the game or maybe switch to dev full time. Both cases mean you get to work more and make a better overall game.

Anyway, I've probably rambled enough. Hopefully that made sense and was potentially helpful. Good luck with your game!
 

DuniX

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Dec 20, 2016
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The problem with Sandbox games is they pretty much need an actual Gameplay Systems to make them work, like Business Management or Combat or something.
Without that you are entirely dependent on the number of events that you can implement, and whether linear or sandbox the amount of content you can implement would be about the same.