What payment system would you like to see, and what is your opinion about the current payment system.

[Klauw1988]

Small disclaimer: This thread isn't made to post any developer nor patreon or shame anyone. So no finger pointing. Also let's keep it civil, we are all adults here.

Hello everyone,

I see common messages about people who are complaining about false promises, developers that go off radar, Patreons that are still active while the game has been abandoned etc. It seems like this has become a issue among the community. So, that's why I wanted to create a topic to talk about it and hear your opinion about.

I wouldn't only ask your opinion about bit, but also what could change in your eyes. What is reasonable for you? Do you want to support a developer monthly or just one time? What do you think about buy a game once and receive all the updates in the future for free? What can a developer do better? When can a developer ask money for something? Should news about a project also cost money? How should they communicate? What are reasonable prices? etc.

The reason why I ask this, is so people can relief their frustration and above all help developers to do better and how to prevent "scamming". I also wanted to start with my own novel and i'm a little bit scared in using Patreon right now, due all the messages I read on this forum.

Me personally, I have supported developers in the past. But eventually I stopped with it, because they go off radar, takes to long to make new updates and so fort. To be honest I want to have a system where you have a sort of Steam platform, but just for adult games. You pay once for a game, and recieve future updates for free. People can also post reviews about the game and the developer can also use a sort of news page, just like Steam. Wouldn't that be a great idea?

I have no problem in supporting a developer on Patreon, but if you pay monthly, then I would also like to have monthly new content. That's just my opinion about. But it seems like Patreon is just a simply way to "milk" money and just go off radar while people keep paying for it.

How do you guys all feel about this?

 

[realakali]

Never have and never will pay someone on Patreon or similar subscription services for content that you may never receive. Sure, there are developers that have proven to be (quite) consistent. But there are no guarantees and the whole model is just wrong in my eyes. Almost all of these devs claim to do this in their spare time and that they need the money to keep working on the project. That makes no sense in the first place. It would be a better reason to ask for money to work on a game full time, but that would at least somewhat ensure that the game gets finished at some point.

In my humble opinion, if anything, Patreon (and similar subscription models) lead to MORE failed projects and disappointed customers.

I think I have said it in a different thread before: I would happily pay for a finished game or even kickstart a project to receive a finished product at one point (although I would be very picky about what project to support that way). But paying someone on a regular basis potentially for what could be eternity and never be happy with the result(s) just feels dumb.

I have played hundreds of games found here and can think of maybe a handful that I would I found worthy of paying for.

This is also a reason why I rather supported this platform with a donation instead of paying several random devs.

 

[♍VoidTraveler]

What is reasonable for you?

Complete the game, and i will pay for it if i like it. Like it was in the good ol' days.
But that modus operandi probably ain't happening anymore, different times and all that. Heh.

Do you want to support a developer monthly or just one time?

One game, one payment.
Is what i'd like but people these days seem to love to throw their money around on various "early accesses" so.. you'd probably be foolish not to take advantage of modern trends, at least to some extent.

What do you think about buy a game once and receive all the updates in the future for free?

Fine by me, i doubt anyone would dislike that, but this probably not happening in this era of DLC.

What can a developer do better?

Everything they want to.
Such things have no upper limit and depend on hard work and passion.

When can a developer ask money for something?

When they have proved themselves, and gathered some followers of their work.
In fact, chances are your followers themselves will ask to support you if they like you and your work.

Should news about a project also cost money?

Don't be ridiculous, of course not.
There is a reason why companies pay for advertisement.

How should they communicate?

Places like F95, places like Steam, places like Discord... plenty of ways.

What are reasonable prices?

That i cannot say, too many variables involved. Do you own research.

 

[Ifartedtoolong]

Itchio already has the buy it option and once you buy it all updates after that are free and when a new update is posted all you have to do is download it. At the top of the page will be the words. You own this adult visual novel. Purchased for X amount X days ago.

 

[Klauw1988]

That i cannot say, too many variables involved. Do you own research.

I don't have to do my own research, it's about what you think it's a reasonable price. Some people find triple A games to expensive for 60 US dollars, no matter how much content it offers. And others are happily to pay even 100 US dollars for a triple A game with less content. Just want to hear your opinion, how much are you willing to spend on a single game for example. What is the price cap in your opinion.

Some people say, 1 US dollar is equally to 1 hour of gameplay. So, if you sell a game for 20 US dollars, it needs to have atleast 20 hours of content. And other people disagree with this statement.

I just want to hear what you think about it, not "search" on Google. You are a member of this community, and I just want to know your opinion.

 

[Klauw1988]

Itchio already has the buy it option and once you buy it all updates after that are free and when a new update is posted all you have to do is download it. At the top of the page will be the words. You own this adult visual novel. Purchased for X amount X days ago.

Itchio is indeed a very interesting platform. I will look in to that for myself. Thanks.

 

[Ifartedtoolong]

For itchio it depends on what the DEV picked for payment option some do the buy now while others do the download now name your own price. The download now option has where you can pick **no thanks, just take me to the downloads** but this option will only get you the older version if there is one but you won't be able to get the latest version and I'm not sure if you get the other updates if you do pay the minimum.

 

[Hadley]

Simple Steam Early Access. You pay for the full Game and thats it. That gives the Dev a incentive to actually finish the Game and not milk subs for years and years *cough* summertime *cough*.

 

[Ambir]

One time payment is the only ways I'm willing to pay for games. For now, I only really know itch.io or steam for it, and they are the only sites I have used to buy games, so far. (Well, there are others I've used, but the only ones where I shop regularly are itch.io and steam)

Never used patreon to pay a developper, and if I can help it, I never will. Although, if there is a good deal that is worth the money (such as one guy who was giving away a 50$ 3d model of my choice for his 10$ patreon tier), I'm open to using the platform for a one month cycle.

 

[おい！]

It has to be the.................

payment of course.

 

[moskyx]

Small disclaimer: This thread isn't made to post any developer nor patreon or shame anyone. So no finger pointing. Also let's keep it civil, we are all adults here.

Hello everyone,

I see common messages about people who are complaining about false promises, developers that go off radar, Patreons that are still active while the game has been abandoned etc. It seems like this has become a issue among the community. So, that's why I wanted to create a topic to talk about it and hear your opinion about.

I wouldn't only ask your opinion about bit, but also what could change in your eyes. What is reasonable for you? Do you want to support a developer monthly or just one time? What do you think about buy a game once and receive all the updates in the future for free? What can a developer do better? When can a developer ask money for something? Should news about a project also cost money? How should they communicate? What are reasonable prices? etc.

The reason why I ask this, is so people can relief their frustration and above all help developers to do better and how to prevent "scamming". I also wanted to start with my own novel and i'm a little bit scared in using Patreon right now, due all the messages I read on this forum.

Me personally, I have supported developers in the past. But eventually I stopped with it, because they go off radar, takes to long to make new updates and so fort. To be honest I want to have a system where you have a sort of Steam platform, but just for adult games. You pay once for a game, and recieve future updates for free. People can also post reviews about the game and the developer can also use a sort of news page, just like Steam. Wouldn't that be a great idea?

I have no problem in supporting a developer on Patreon, but if you pay monthly, then I would also like to have monthly new content. That's just my opinion about. But it seems like Patreon is just a simply way to "milk" money and just go off radar while people keep paying for it.

How do you guys all feel about this?

If you are an aspiring dev, all what you need is honesty*. Try to plan your workflow in advance and make promises accordingly to what you can possibly achieve, keep your word and be transparent about any possible setback. Pausing pledges when you see you're not going to meet a promised deadline is encouraged in order to build that trust. Providing weekly info about development should be a must; you can put an extended progress report behind a minor paywall, so that your paying supporters feel that they are following the development closingly, but some basic info should be made regularly available for everybody, so people can easily find it and use it to make a better informed decission about supporting you. Even if you feel there's nothing to report, force yourself to make a brief summary of what you've done and why you haven't advanced that much, it might even do yourself a favour.


*Actually, no, you don't need any of this, as people can support even the most outrageous devs providing they satisfy their kinks, but the fact that others don't follow this basic behavior shouldn't prevent you from doing it right. People are going to complain anyway, but at least you'll have a clean conscience. Of course, it all depends on who you really are. Getting 'free' money from desperate wankers will only reveal your true colors.

 

[anne O'nymous]

People are going to complain anyway, but at least you'll have a clean conscience.

They'll not just complain, they'll also not pay.

There's two different category of adult games players, those who are on forum like this one, and those who buy games on platform like Steam or itch.io. And, with some exception, they are two different kind of persons.
Here, you've those who really want lewd in their entertainment. Not necessarily for fap purpose, but because they are perverts and like it that way. But those who buy games are mostly occasional players ; time to time they find a game with lewd content and feel like playing it for a change.

And it's pretty funny to see, whatever the thread, so many people saying that they will pay for finished games, and near to not a single one say that they had payed for a finished game...

 

[freedom.call]

Nothing wrong with the system, people pay to support devs. I don't think there would be many games by 'amateurs' like we see in here without the current system. If you're gonna wait until games are finished there won't be many devs around.

It's not perfect obviously but it's up to the supporter to pay if they're happy or stop paying if they're not happy.

 

[PeterEnis23]

Hmmm...

Id say the biggest issue with Patreon and Others is "freedom & stability". See the Nopy servers example.
At least from a Developers perspective, I think those are big ones. Having to been wary what content you produce and potentially risk loosing your lifelyhood by creating the "wrong" one, sucks.

This is not a "lewd games" exclusive Problem, but its by far bigger here than for normal games.

However, I dont see a long-term solution for this. Eventually, any bank can be coerced into not working with you anymore. And it seems like our world is quickly developing into a world were we will see more and more of this (regulating the population through coercive means such as closing bank accounts, websites...). And our hobby seems to be at least partially targeted.

All other issues apply to "normal games" aswell.
Id never play a "pay2win" title, but somehow they are making money of it, so there are people willing to play them.
Im very vary of early access games and if I buy them its always under the premise that it probably wont get any better than that...

Now, I would argue that within our subgenre this could be solved way easier than for normal games.
All it would take is a proper well moderated plattform and considering the fact that our subgenre is way more enthusiast based than money orientated, it could maybe even work.

But maybe Im naive and it would eventually turn into a shitshow like Steam.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

They'll not just complain, they'll also not pay.

There's two different category of adult games players, those who are on forum like this one, and those who buy games on platform like Steam or itch.io. And, with some exception, they are two different kind of persons.
Here, you've those who really want lewd in their entertainment. Not necessarily for fap purpose, but because they are perverts and like it that way. But those who buy games are mostly occasional players ; time to time they find a game with lewd content and feel like playing it for a change.

And it's pretty funny to see, whatever the thread, so many people saying that they will pay for finished games, and near to not a single one say that they had payed for a finished game...

I think for me it is important to know where a game is heading. What can i expect. Will it go where i want it to go for my personal perverted dreams?
I tried many games and only a handful is actually what i really like. The rest is just not want i want or have imagined.
As far as paying, i am willing to pay. Though i am not sure what the right amount is or what is justified.
Personally i wish i could pay a fixed amount and done with it. I am not a fan of subscriptions. Its just never ending and you pay in the end, if you stay with it, maybe more than a regular game on steam. Plus there are no sales like on Steam.
I think that a developer should be rewarded for his creation but today this seems only be possible via subscription.
But i haven't made really efforts in that regard but relay on the description of the game on the forum and pay options that are offered.
There are some games that never get finished, but i can see why.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I think for me it is important to know where a game is heading. What can i expect. Will it go where i want it to go for my personal perverted dreams?

So, before buying a "regular game", you pass a day searching for every single spoilers you can find, in order to be sure that the story will not have a displeasing twist ; Baldur Gates 1, Watchdog, to names only two that cross my mind.
Why do I doubt ?

I tried many games and only a handful is actually what i really like. The rest is just not want i want or have imagined.

This one is fair. Unlike "regular game", the preview you get is generally limited, and it's not the reviews here that can really help.

Personally i wish i could pay a fixed amount and done with it. I am not a fan of subscriptions.

And you are subscribing to what exactly ?

The vast majority of the authors who have a Patreon page also have their game available for free after a time of exclusivity for those who support them. Without piracy, you would get the game one month after those who pledge, and so what ? You also started playing it with one month of delay. This mean that, all in all, you are exactly in the same position that them, except that you aren't spending a dime.

By pledging, you aren't paying the author, nor subscribing to something. You are just believing that this person deserve some money for his works, and like it happen that you can spare of few bucks yourself...
If pledges are something, then it's a reward, exactly like tips outside of the USA. You think that this person do a good job, and you give him a little something for this reason.

And it also have nothing to do with the future of the story/game. It's not because a game had an unwanted twist, that the entertainment he provided you before this moment suddenly disappeared retroactively.
There's people who say that they lost their time following a game, playing each update until the moment its author totally messed it... Excuse-me but what ? One month ago you believed that it was time well spent, and suddenly it become wasted times ? If you enjoyed playing the game until now, then this time was well spent, period.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

So, before buying a "regular game", you pass a day searching for every single spoilers you can find, in order to be sure that the story will not have a displeasing twist ; Baldur Gates 1, Watchdog, to names only two that cross my mind.
Why do I doubt ?

Well, it true.
Though i am buying no more games like i used to.

I think i am looking more for something like can i have sleep sex with mom or something like that. That is what i meant.
There are some perversions that may or may not surface in a game. So the clearer the descriptions and plans are, the better i feel playing it.

I made myself a rough list of games i actually enjoy and will support. When i say subscriptions then i mean the commitment to pay over time. Though, to be fair, i guess you can also pay right away a yearly amount and be done with it. Not sure how much the author actually gets after fees from Patreon.
In any case i will subscribe to 5 games that are dear to me, where i like to see more of it. So i am not a cheap ass but i take time to commit. I want to be part of the solution and not the problem. Why? Because i can imagine how much work goes into it. I modded in small ways that are not worth mentioning but i learned that to make a truly great mod, its a lot of work.
So i like to leave it at that.

p.s. oh my. Inside Jennifer is $13 a month. Thats a little much for me. Especially if i want to support not just one game. Maybe justified, maybe not. Not sure.

 

[moskyx]

So i am not a cheap ass but i take time to commit. I want to be part of the solution and not the problem.

I think this is the right approach to Patreon, or at least is what I'm doing. I take my time to analyze the dev's background regarding communication and plans, and I only jump in when I see some seriousness from their part. Which I understand as having a clear story in mind, and some regular and reasonably polished updates already out there to show their actual commitment to their project (I don't mind how much time passed between updates, if I feel it's justified enough). Then life happens, of course, but I haven't regretted yet from supporting anyone. And I feel that this behaviour, as you put it, is part of the solution. A more sensible and rational approach to patronage from patrons themselves would do wonders.

Now, back to the OP, I'll just add that you, as a dev, must choose whatever payment method you feel comfortable with. Some devs charge only per update, instead of monthly; I wouldn't do that if I were developing a game, as I'd like to think I'd be serious enough about it to deserve the trust of a monthly payment (and I always have the option to pause pledges or even refund people, if I'm not delivering), but I can understand the appeal, as it's a nice compromise. So, anyway, if you feel it's fairer to charge just once for a finished product, do it in Itch.io and/or Steam; if you feel it's fair to let people support you monthly, go for Patreon. It's all about your mindset. I like to say that you shouldn't put a salary cap on yourself, and let people value your job and give you whatever money they feel like throwing to your project. If you are a honest worker, there shouldn't be any problem, but some people may want to put a limit on their income to avoid feeling like a cash-grabber; impostor syndrome is also a thing, and sometimes the need to 'satisfy' monthly patrons can be quite demanding and feel like a chore, detracting time and energies from actual development. So look at yourself and choose whatever suits you best.

 

[anne O'nymous]

In any case i will subscribe to 5 games that are dear to me, where i like to see more of it. So i am not a cheap ass but i take time to commit. I want to be part of the solution and not the problem. Why? Because i can imagine how much work goes into it. I modded in small ways that are not worth mentioning but i learned that to make a truly great mod, its a lot of work.

I don't think you're a cheap ass, even if it wasn't necessarily seen in my answer. If I would qualify this, it would more be "chilly". Since the games are made available for, generally by the authors themselves after some time, you take more time than you would if it wasn't.

It's the same problem, by example, with comestible that have free sample. Would you have tasted it in a restaurant or a dinner between friends, you would have asked for the name and bought some. But if it's a free sample, whatever how big is this sample, it need to be excellent for you to effectively buy it. Else, whatever how good it taste, you've the feeling that the sample wasn't big enough for you to be sure that you'll like it.
For games, the problem is reinforced by the fact that too many authors ended abandoning their game, rushing the end, or totally messing the story.