What separates genuinely story-driven games from games that just claim to be?

[liveseyy]

People don’t want a normal guy, they want some perfect being

Yes, I have noticed this. There is a strong tendency from visual novels to aim for Mary Sue style characters which succeed in everything. This is even an explicit thematic element in Leap of Faith.

I feel like this is not necessarily an issue unique to VNs, though. It's simply power fantasy. Most major first person shooters have characters with similar qualities, though obviously with their unusual abilities being centered around killing. This is how Spec Ops The Line happened; its whole point is that it subverts the power fantasy. I believe that the power fantasy of visual novels can be successfully subverted, too.

 

[liveseyy]

VNs are all garbage by definition. It's for those who really doesn't know a thing about coding and game development nor wish to learn it.

Why do you make this assumption? Even if you know about coding and game development, software development for a full game is very time consuming and difficult compared to a VN. VNs provide a vehicle for player agency, while abstracting away most of the player actions into dialogue. They are also extremely accessible to basically any player, and are probably the only viable medium if you want to go for photorealistic graphics as a one-man dev team.

So they would rather make a power-point presentation instead of doing real stuff. They're all fraud.

What exactly would you consider "real stuff"? From a game design perspective, a VN is not that different from, say, Disco Elysium. Sure, Disco has an open world, but that contributes little mechanically (its biggest purpose is artistic, to show off the world to the player). Sure, Disco has skills, inventory, and RNG-based checks, but there is no reason a VN could not implement any of those mechanics. The fact that no one chooses to does not make the medium "garbage by definition."

Planescape Torment is another one, though I hesitate to draw a direct comparison due to its long, book-like style of narration. Still, what game mechanics does it have? You have an open world that mostly comes down to clicking on characters to talk to them, skills, an inventory, and occasionally you get into combat (that was put in the game more because an RPG in that era was expected to have it; it sucks so much most people ignore it). The game is not even that varied; most quests have a single outcome, and the ending almost exclusively depends on a choice you make in the end.

VNs are also related to interactive fiction. I'm not gonna go into that one, since I don't have enough experience with IF to talk about it in depth, but I think I've made my point clear enough.

So every time I see a new post that's tagged with VN I only see a bald declaration:"Chello, here's my slide show and I'm here to scamm the sh1t outta yall".

Describing their games as quality "Story driven" mechanics is just an exuse for a talentless effort of gaining money(pretty much like everything these days)

I would be inclined to agree with you, were it not for two things.
a. Most of the audience is going to be well aware of what they're signing up for. It's tough to scam someone when they don't expect you to succeed to begin with, no?
b. Good luck making any money on VNs.

If you're enjoying VN - you're geniunely dumb. But I'm happy for you and envy you. You've got some luxury I never gonna be able enjoy

Yes, I can clearly see you're an intellectual. Perhaps if we had more individuals like yourself working on this, we could solve the issue. Until then, I suppose we'll just have to enjoy those little luxuries you don't have: enjoying VNs and, evidently, being able to spell words.

 

[1nsomniac22]

First, to the OP and posters on this thread: thank you. This is one of the more interesting discussions I've read in my short time here.

My $0.02 on the subject (as a new creator and author): writing a good VN is absolutely an art. You need to have more than an initial concept - you need an actual story to tell. As others have commented, that is best served by having some of the traditional elements of good storytelling: a (or multiple) protagonist(s), an ordeal, a character journey, and a resolution.

Once I have those elements in place, the ongoing struggle is to write good and compelling VN content. Here are some of the challenges that I face:

1. A strong start: you really need to establish the protagonist and story quickly. In the marketplace of 1000's of VN's capturing peoples attention and imagination is difficult. Having a distinct art style is good for the initial impression, but if I don't establish my storytelling ability within the first few minutes I fear I will lose my audience, or worse - they'll just click through to the next picture. I imagine things are only getting worse with the advent of AI produced (let's not be charitable) shovelware. (A funny admission from me, since I use AI art in my works, but there it is). This is difficult - how to introduce the protagonist and the ordeal in a short span of a few lines of dialogue or exposition? I'm not excusing the played-out genres that are so pervasive in VN's, but it's easy to fall into one of those predictable ways of starting out (God knows... I've done it).
2. Proper editing: it's quite challenging to do on a Ren'py manuscript (ha, quite an inflated ego using that word) with the default tools. I'm probably doing it wrong, but writing the script in a coding tool and then extracting and editing it does not a happy editor make, especially a self editor. Doubly so for non-native English writers (but, since this is an English language focused forum, it is what it is). Given how much nuance there can be in the written language - especially if you develop characters who throw in slang, I'm fearful about even trying to translate modest works into other languages. Maybe the larger VN community would be able to help, if my work were deemed good enough for such... but I have no such ambitions.
3. Pacing: this is not limited to VN's, but applies to just about any creative writing exercise. A tight, well told story makes the pages fly by. Famous writers like Clancy, Webber, and Martin can get away with hundreds of pages of exposition and description (waves of missiles that spawn even more dense waves of missiles that close on the target... which "are more than enough" is my favorite Webber-ism trope ever ). But, in the VN format? No one is going to read a wall of text. Even more challenging, the dialogue drives the story, which is it's own trap. I try to keep the dialogue between characters tight and punchy - but that breaks down when a complex concept needs to be communicated (almost caught myself monologuing... again).
4. Development schedule: how long does it take to release the next part of my VN? "When it's ready" isn't a happy answer, but, again, there it is. Double and triple down when talking about the need to a) write b) produce renders and c) edit. This is a hobby for me, so I enjoy the time spent doing it (since I'm not sleeping, I might as well do something interesting). But, what's a realistic schedule for a small indie effort? How much content is enough for the next release, and how long does it really take to create it?
5. Economy: I don't want to be paid for my work - I don't ask for it and don't expect it. However, I absolutely feel sympathy for everyone who does. You only get a limited number of hours on this Earth and if you spend some portion of that working on what you think is your best work ever (and who among the VN creators really doesn't think that?), it's only fair to hope for just recompense. Never mind costs for hardware, software licensing, outsourcing art, music, sfx, marketing, etc. I can't imagine many VN authors dream of getting rich because of their work, so why do they do it?

All that said, in truly reductionist terms: I feel that a proper story driven VN is dependent on interesting characters that capture the audience. Having pretty renders will only get you so far. And since we're talking about adult story content, ultimately, it boils down to the interaction between those characters. And not just the horizontal interactions. Everything that leads up to that moment and the aftermath -that's the critical thing that makes any story really work.

That's what I desperately try to capture.

I hope I added something of value to this discussion.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Firstly, I have decided we are brothers. Kinship of the sleepless. Secondly, you make some solid points I want to give my thoughts on.

A strong start: you really need to establish the protagonist and story quickly. In the marketplace of 1000's of VN's capturing peoples attention and imagination is difficult. Having a distinct art style is good for the initial impression, but if I don't establish my storytelling ability within the first few minutes I fear I will lose my audience, or worse - they'll just click through to the next picture. I imagine things are only getting worse with the advent of AI produced (let's not be charitable) shovelware. (A funny admission from me, since I use AI art in my works, but there it is). This is difficult - how to introduce the protagonist and the ordeal in a short span of a few lines of dialogue or exposition? I'm not excusing the played-out genres that are so pervasive in VN's, but it's easy to fall into one of those predictable ways of starting out (God knows... I've done it).

Strong starts are important. But we have to avoid exposition dumps. No one likes those. Two of the better ways I've seen and done is to establish the character by putting them in an activity they're normally doing, or by putting them in a sex scene immediately. That second one only works for certain characters.

Proper editing: it's quite challenging to do on a Ren'py manuscript (ha, quite an inflated ego using that word) with the default tools. I'm probably doing it wrong, but writing the script in a coding tool and then extracting and editing it does not a happy editor make, especially a self editor. Doubly so for non-native English writers (but, since this is an English language focused forum, it is what it is). Given how much nuance there can be in the written language - especially if you develop characters who throw in slang, I'm fearful about even trying to translate modest works into other languages. Maybe the larger VN community would be able to help, if my work were deemed good enough for such... but I have no such ambitions

This brings up a point of contention I have with a lot of stuff here. Dialogue. I've seen a lot of games where characters speak perfectly. They have perfect grammar, the use esoteric words. That's not how most people speak. It's a pet peeve, but I prefer when characters have dialogue written the way people actually speak. (Unless the character is meant to have perfect speech). Side effect of this, you can have a lot of personality with just the way a character talks. Note, this only applies to spoken dialogue. Narration and description should not be handled this way.

Pacing: this is not limited to VN's, but applies to just about any creative writing exercise. A tight, well told story makes the pages fly by. Famous writers like Clancy, Webber, and Martin can get away with hundreds of pages of exposition and description (waves of missiles that spawn even more dense waves of missiles that close on the target... which "are more than enough" is my favorite Webber-ism trope ever ). But, in the VN format? No one is going to read a wall of text. Even more challenging, the dialogue drives the story, which is it's own trap. I try to keep the dialogue between characters tight and punchy - but that breaks down when a complex concept needs to be communicated (almost caught myself monologuing... again).

We have what those authors did not, though. Visuals. Exposition and description is far less needed when the audience can actually see something. Dialogue too long? Have the characters doing something while it's happening. Writing something, fidgeting with something, etc. It's not going to solve the most egregious of verbose dialogue, but it will hope those necessary longer-winded parts.

Development schedule: how long does it take to release the next part of my VN? "When it's ready" isn't a happy answer, but, again, there it is. Double and triple down when talking about the need to a) write b) produce renders and c) edit. This is a hobby for me, so I enjoy the time spent doing it (since I'm not sleeping, I might as well do something interesting). But, what's a realistic schedule for a small indie effort? How much content is enough for the next release, and how long does it really take to create it?

As someone who released about 40 minutes of content every two weeks... yeah, don't do that. A release schedule is something you need to get a feel for. If this is just a hobby, and you're not asking for payment, it doesn't matter. When/if you start getting paid, my view point changes drastically. Now you have an obligation. Personally, anything over three months and a dev is not going to get any respect out of me. To me that's taking advantage of people.

 

[liveseyy]

Dond trol mai engresh, tis wery gud( to be serious, your spelling sucks as well soy bean)

I honestly thought you would at least come up with a clever retort and we could have had some fun trolling one another, but the fact that "no u" was the best you could do demonstrates you don't have the capacity for even that. You've disappointed me; I don't want to engage with you anymore.

 

[1nsomniac22]

Firstly, I have decided we are brothers. Kinship of the sleepless. Secondly, you make some solid points I want to give my thoughts on.

Thanks! Agree, I've seen some of your other posts and had to do a double take at the name (was afraid I was sleep-posting -_- ). You also make good arguments/points.

Strong starts are important. But we have to avoid exposition dumps. No one likes those. Two of the better ways I've seen and done is to establish the character by putting them in an activity they're normally doing, or by putting them in a sex scene immediately. That second one only works for certain characters.

Interesting, talk about starting a VN off with a bang . I'm not going to brag, but I really like the way I start off my next (upcoming) VN - it definitely uses your first suggestion. Its a story about a fighter, so the VN starts on the walk up to the ring. The advantages being you get right into the action, and then at the conclusion of that fight there is opportunity to do all the things that VN's typically have to do: what is your name?, talk about your background, explain why you're struggling with the most difficult thing evar!

This brings up a point of contention I have with a lot of stuff here. Dialogue...

Absolutely agree on this. But, I think it's probably one of the more difficult skills for any decent writer. I'm not calling myself that, but I certainly struggle with developing and then keeping consistent voices for each character. Slang, imperfect grammar and word choice are critical, but... damn, it's hard to do. Having a character bible seems to help - I can always go back and remind myself about the characters background. Also, as I'm using Visual Studio Code, there is the Ren'py Analyzer plug in that I hoped would help by grouping the different character text blocks, but it's not as useful as I thought.
Insomnimaniac, any other techniques you've found for this?

We have what those authors did not, though. Visuals....

That's a very helpful suggestion. Even just having a character fidgeting... it's subtle, but effective. I've probably seen it in many VN's I've read and not even realized it. In other contexts, having another character there during exposition dumps to do things like take notes or add sums is something I will absolutely try.

Also, I've got some character history I will need to relate, and I'm going to experiment with the tried and true flashback.

As someone who released about 40 minutes of content every two weeks... yeah, don't do that.

That sounds absolutely horrific, I can't even.

A release schedule is something you need to get a feel for.

Yup! Since I do software development IRL, I've got a pretty good handle on creating timelines, especially now that I've got most of the workflow figured out... but, as you say - it's going to be very different for everyone. Hell, every VN will be different, depending on the number of characters and how much editing is needed. I think, if it's a paid project, your 3 month limit is reasonable.

 

[Insomnimaniac Games]

Insomnimaniac, any other techniques you've found for this?

Picture how a character laughs. It's easy to keep track of in your head, and tells you a lot about the character. Good reminder of how a character is supposed to be, personality wise.