whats the deal with NTR? why is it so hated?

[QwertySmurfy]

Why would you want to see someone, who you will be following on screen for majority of an AVN, be put in a defeating position, and get nothing out of it? It's all about point-of-view. Some are fine with Netori, which is the opposite, where the mc is the one stealing someone else's love interest, but for some reason people like NTR more, where the mc loses the loved one. It's a weird dynamic.

 

[MissCougar]

I think people like NTR because it's never true miserable NTR.

In games its usually this sort of fun voyeuristic romp where the husband is directing the woman to go bang while getting a play by play.

It's more like a swinger open relationship.

If you want NTR, it should be your wife comes home with a cum soaked pussy and tells you maybe about it or not, but you don't get to see it. You get jilted and then you go crazy and depressed as your whole life starts to come down around you and your wife eventually leaves you, broken and alone, with her new man. The sex content would be almost nothing, and it'd be a psychological horror story and depression.

While I'm sure these exist somewhere, all the NTR I see is of the swinger variety. I'm sure people will tell me about the three tiers of NTR, and thats ok. I don't get it either but I don't think the depressing situation is properly encapsulated in the stories.

I think if NTR was told how it's supposed to be, a lot less people would like it. Unless it's like the female perspective, then it'd be different and more like a running away from a loser type story.

 

[allanl9020142]

I don't really care whether people like it, all I really want is for non-NTR devs to make characters as hot as characters in NTR games.

I'm tired of:

• sorta brunette with manish features
• redhead with way too many freckles (There's a limit, damn it!)
• dark-haired woman with a Karen-ass haircut
• shaved sides punk rock-looking ass lesbo who's not a lesbo
• the plainest-looking blonde that makes you forget that blondes are actually hot

"Er, actually you're supposed to like the characters for their personalities"
Fffffuck you, man. They're all basically the same insufferable person because you suck at writing anyway!

 

[ThreeLegManga]

I think the short answer, at least imo, is that it's hated from people who to tend to self-insert while playing (video games in general) unless they're into that kind of thing irl.

 

[SinisterPortal]

I think if NTR was told how it's supposed to be, a lot less people would like it. Unless it's like the female perspective, then it'd be different and more like a running away from a loser type story.

The NTR game that put me into depression was actually from the female POV (she got raped).

 

[agelastos]

Depends, it's a very wide genre, from Shakespearean tragedy to Russian realism and beyond. Yet, most tragedy lit doesn't feel like torture, it's sad, tragic stories, but there are high moments as well, they usually are not all-dark and the struggles of the characters invoke phylosophical thoughts rather than pain in you.

OK. You're right that "tragedy" can be used broadly (I'm not familiar with any definition of the term that includes Russian realism, but I'm sure there is one). I should have been more specific. I meant tragedy in the classical sense (mainly Greek, but I guess Roman and Elizabethan tragedies also fit the bill): plays that aim to stir pity and fear by making us feel a basically decent protagonist's suffering, showing how a single error in judgment pulls them into ruin, and forcing us to face that the same could happen to us. That kind of tragedy is absolutely meant to make the audience experience pain. Not gratuitous pain, but pain in the form of focused pity and fear that build toward a release once the story resolves. The suffering is the vehicle, the point is catharsis (the insight and the clarity that we experience after the play). You're right in saying that tragedies aren't all darkness all the time, though. The best tragedies also have moments of dignity, recognition, and even a hard kind of beauty. But the suffering is still of central importance. (I think the same thing is true for NTR. Most of the NTR games I've played had lighter moments, bits of comic relief, sometimes even routes or endings that soften the tone.)

As for NTR: different genre, different ethics, but the basic move is similar. The work invites you to inhabit an unwanted feeling in a safe, fictional space. If that experience is not for you, it's totally fine to skip it, but "this makes me feel bad" by itself is not a sufficient reason to pile on the genre or the people who like it IMO, and certainly not a reason to call for banning it from the site (I'm not saying you think it should be banned, but there are people here who do). If that was enough to condemn an entire genre, we would have to dump horror (I felt like shit for an entire day after I first saw "Martyrs", but I didn't go online to complain about New French Horror), elegies, the blues, war novels, most documentary films, and countless other genres as well. Art sometimes takes us through dark feelings to show us something true. Granted, I don't expect many NTR games (or comics or w/e medium) to lead to some life-changing epiphany or feeling of sublimity, but I'm sure some people do experience something very much like catharsis after playing a NTR game.

 

[Yicdeh]

OK. You're right that "tragedy" can be used broadly (I'm not familiar with any definition of the term that includes Russian realism, but I'm sure there is one). I should have been more specific. I meant tragedy in the classical sense (mainly Greek, but I guess Roman and Elizabethan tragedies also fit the bill): plays that aim to stir pity and fear by making us feel a basically decent protagonist's suffering, showing how a single error in judgment pulls them into ruin, and forcing us to face that the same could happen to us. That kind of tragedy is absolutely meant to make the audience experience pain. Not gratuitous pain, but pain in the form of focused pity and fear that build toward a release once the story resolves. The suffering is the vehicle, the point is catharsis (the insight and the clarity that we experience after the play). You're right in saying that tragedies aren't all darkness all the time, though. The best tragedies also have moments of dignity, recognition, and even a hard kind of beauty. But the suffering is still of central importance. (I think the same thing is true for NTR. Most of the NTR games I've played had lighter moments, bits of comic relief, sometimes even routes or endings that soften the tone.)

As for NTR: different genre, different ethics, but the basic move is similar. The work invites you to inhabit an unwanted feeling in a safe, fictional space. If that experience is not for you, it's totally fine to skip it, but "this makes me feel bad" by itself is not a sufficient reason to pile on the genre or the people who like it IMO, and certainly not a reason to call for banning it from the site (I'm not saying you think it should be banned, but there are people here who do). If that was enough to condemn an entire genre, we would have to dump horror (I felt like shit for an entire day after I first saw "Martyrs", but I didn't go online to complain about New French Horror), elegies, the blues, war novels, most documentary films, and countless other genres as well. Art sometimes takes us through dark feelings to show us something true. Granted, I don't expect many NTR games (or comics or w/e medium) to lead to some life-changing epiphany or feeling of sublimity, but I'm sure some people do experience something very much like catharsis after playing a NTR game.

Your absolutely right that it shouldn't be banned or removed or anything like that. The hate is a bit of a circle jerk. The meme has gotten bigger then the understanding of it. I will say though the meme comes from a very real place. Years ago it used to be not a single game could come out with the comments being "can you add NTR" or "will there be pregnancy ". In this era, NTR lovers were the bad guy. They badgered, attacked, and whined to every game dev they could. To the point that some games were getting poor ratings because the dev wouldn't add NTR to there harem game. That's kinda where the meme of hating NTR stems from. Once again, I admit the joke of it is lost now.

I don't think NTR should be banned and I think if you don't like it you move along, but the same can be said for harem. NTR fans are just getting what they gave so many years ago lol. Not that its right, but it is poetic.

 

[agelastos]

Your absolutely right that it shouldn't be banned or removed or anything like that. The hate is a bit of a circle jerk. The meme has gotten bigger then the understanding of it. I will say though the meme comes from a very real place. Years ago it used to be not a single game could come out with the comments being "can you add NTR" or "will there be pregnancy ". In this era, NTR lovers were the bad guy. They badgered, attacked, and whined to every game dev they could. To the point that some games were getting poor ratings because the dev wouldn't add NTR to there harem game. That's kinda where the meme of hating NTR stems from. Once again, I admit the joke of it is lost now.

I don't think NTR should be banned and I think if you don't like it you move along, but the same can be said for harem. NTR fans are just getting what they gave so many years ago lol. Not that its right, but it is poetic.

I remember that era, and I absolutely agree with everything you said.

 

[SinisterPortal]

Art sometimes takes us through dark feelings to show us something true.

the problem is NTR most of the time doesn't show anything close to real. NTR logic is even worse than porn logic, because for NTR to happen the characters have to be notoriously stupid and the situations they find themselves in are absurdly far-fetched.

 

[ulala9]

I asked grok and it said it's because you're all closet masochists. That's why you lov.. I mean hate it

 

[agelastos]

the problem is NTR most of the time doesn't show anything close to real. NTR logic is even worse than porn logic, because for NTR to happen the characters have to be notoriously stupid and the situations they find themselves in are absurdly far-fetched.

"NTR logic is even worse than porn logic". How big is the sample you’re basing that on? Maybe the NTR games you tried were just bad.

Also, real ≠ true. Plenty of great art is "unrealistic" on the surface yet still true about how people feel and act. Greek tragedy has oracles and gods, Shakespeare has ghosts, Kafka turns a man into an insect. Horror, satire, and parable all use exaggeration or dream logic to isolate a feeling and study it. The point is not documentary accuracy but whether the pattern of experience rings true.

NTR cranks certain dials to foreground jealousy, betrayal, status anxiety, sexual shame, and loss of control. That can look contrived, just like slasher movies or melodrama often do, but contrivance is a tool. The fair test is not "would this play out exactly like this in my town" but "does the story’s internal setup make the emotions believable once you accept its premise." If your claim is that a lot of NTR is lazy and paper-thin, I can agree. That is a craft problem, not proof that the genre cannot show anything true.

Edit: Minor spelling error.

 

[SinisterPortal]

"NTR logic is even worse than porn logic". How big is the sample you’re basing that on? Maybe the NTR games you tried were just bad.

Maybe, I mostly judge by the comments in NTR threads, people always say plot excuses are stupid. I didn't play many NTR games myself.

Also, real ≠ true. Plenty of great art is "unrealistic" on the surface yet still true about how people feel and act. Greek tragedy has oracles and gods, Shakespeare has ghosts

How do you know that greek gods and ghosts aren't real?

If your claim is that a lot of NTR is lazy and paper-thin, I can agree. That is a craft problem, not proof that the genre cannot show anything true.

Maybe. Can you name a game with a good NTR plot?

 

[agelastos]

Maybe. Can you name a game with a good NTR plot?

Hm. Based on what you've written in this thread... maybe "Our Red String"? I haven't played it in a while, but, AFAIR, it has good writing, interesting characters, plenty of lighter moments, many different routes, and the NTR is avoidable.

Edit: To be fair, I'm probably not the best person to ask. While I do enjoy the occasional NTR game, it's not one of my favorite genres.

 

[SinisterPortal]

Hm. Based on what you've written in this thread... maybe "Our Red String"?

I was thinking of playing it actually, but from the description and tags it doesn't feel NTR, more like an ordinary corruption game

 

[agelastos]

I was thinking of playing it actually, but from the description and tags it doesn't feel NTR, more like an ordinary corruption game

It starts out as an ordinary corruption game, yes. But, if you make the wrong choices (or right choices, depending on your POV), it can turn into something else...

 

[Saerwen]

Maybe. Can you name a game with a good NTR plot?

Seeds of Chaos. Definitely the best NTR game I've played. It shows the fall of main hero which is so fucking rare, Devs are obsessed with corruption of women. Men can get corrupted too.

 

[Jaike]

Seeds of Chaos. Definitely the best NTR game I've played. It shows the fall of main hero which is so fucking rare, Devs are obsessed with corruption of women. Men can get corrupted too.

It's overrated as hell tho. The plot relies on bullshit dilemmas like making the MC rape this character or letting orcs brutally gangrape her, and the grimdark setting never makes up its mind if it's governed through high medieval based vassalage or by a centralising absolutist state. While the main male antagonist flips between a genocidal lunatic and a romantic virgin in a way that makes a "man with 1000 faces" look mild.

 

[SinisterPortal]

Seeds of Chaos. Definitely the best NTR game I've played. It shows the fall of main hero which is so fucking rare, Devs are obsessed with corruption of women. Men can get corrupted too.

Corruption of a man is an interesting idea, never saw it in games. In the reviews I read that this game is a bisexual cuckold simulator in a dark fantasy world, is that correct?

 

[aifman7]

I enjoy playing maledom games where a male MC doesn't care about the female cast beyond using them for sex and letting others do the same, and those games are always tagged as NTR. I really hate the NTR tag on F95zone because it lumps three or four extremely different types of content into one tag which largely is why I think we see so much vitriol and hate in those threads "NTR AVOIDABLE?!?!11"

The fact that NTR tag here includes Netori (stealing a woman from her lover), Netorare (unwilling cuckoldry), and Netorase (willing cuckoldry) all in one is a huge mistake that I really believe causes most of these disputes. There would of course still be chuds coming into those threads spouting the same crap against the true netorare games but it would be much less than it is now.

One look at netori games here tells you as much. Just about everybody likes netori, even most NTR haters.

It took me a while to learn that I don't really enjoy any actual forms of NTR, I enjoy maledom pimping games with darker themes. Unfortunately, the way games are tagged on F95, most of those types of games get the NTR tag here.

Perhaps unrelatedly, it seems like there are a large portion of gooners here who truly believe that a game is NTR if even a single other male character exists in the world. I've seen some wildly asinine responses from people in threads before, for example: in a game where the male MC's mother and father have sex, users called it NTR.

At this point those three letters mean whatever people want them to mean. There's no true definition because there's no agreement. Most of these disputes would be resolved if the NTR tag were broken up into its proper components, but IIRC staff have said that won't happen so here we are.

 

[SinisterPortal]

The fact that NTR tag here includes Netori (stealing a woman from her lover), Netorare (unwilling cuckoldry), and Netorase (willing cuckoldry) all in one is a huge mistake that I really believe causes most of these disputes. There would of course still be chuds coming into those threads spouting the same crap against the true netorare games but it would be much less than it is now.

Truly so, we discussed it the other day in another thread, this is a big problem of this forum's tag system.
>Netorase (willing cuckoldry)
Not necessary, Netorase is not cuckoldry, they are different terms. Netorare is closer to cuckoldry in its masochistic aspect, but still not fully the same