Daz Honest question about DAZ3D. Genesis 8 or 9?

[Spaceballz]

Hi everyone!

I am relatively new to rendering and DAZ3D, but I have been making a bunch of different renders. I find myself liking to work more with Genesis 9 Characters more than 8 or 8.1. Now I've discovered, maybe erroneously, that there is less assets that are available with Gen 9, but I found more freedom to work with Gen 9, mostly for poses, shaping and manipulating surfaces. I fear I might be painting myself into a corner if I don't build an asset library for Gen 8/8.1.

So I don't want to spark a heated debate here, but in your opinion, witch is best? Gen 9 or Gen 8/8.1? Or do you use both in the same scene depending on what you need?

 

[Jumbi]

For the moment, I rarely do anything with Genesis 9 figures. But it's only my personal take at the moment. That will surely change in time. I started not long ago with Daz and I am still building up my Genesis 8 library. Also, take into consideration that nowadays, the vast majority of releases on the official Daz Store are aimed at the Genesis 9 generation. And these come by the tens on a daily basis.

 

[Richard Fappington]

I've dabbled in Gen 9 a few times but find myself coming back to Gen 8. I think it's mostly a comfortability thing but also the number of assets and WIP items I have for Gen 8.

That said, I keep finding myself thinking "wow that looks amazing" on a lot of Gen 9 assets I see coming out. I'm sure I'll make the switch at some point.

If I were just starting out I would probably lean toward Gen 9. And of course there's nothing wrong with mixing the two.

 

[MissFortune]

Have to agree with Richard Fappington G9 looks amazing, but it certainly replicable with 8.1 with a decent bit of modding. Just depends on how much effort you're willing to put into learning it. Though, I do agree with you, OP. I find G9 generally easier to work with. VRAM can be a bit of a problem with anything more than three, though. Unless you're on a A6000 or something.

You aren't getting this kind of detail with a 4k normal map on G8/8.1:




This is largely bone stock skin for G9 Daz Original figures, as well. Aside from some Base Color/Translusency Color (and Weight) tinkering, along with fixing up the Transmitted Measurement Distance to get rid of the rudolph nose on the lower one. A lot of people say the only difference between 8.1 and 9 are the 8K normal maps, but I feel like there's something more going on there. They render faster, react a bit more realistically to lighting, and generally have a lot more consistent quality across different vendors.

But it's important to make sure you have the hardware to go G9. The environments for Daz are only getting bigger (and thus more VRAM, which means less for figures), and the figures are only going to get higher quality from here. Not to speak of clothes or hair assets. It's all important to consider, especially if you're making a VN. If you're doing one-off renders, it's a little easier to ignore all that, but still worth thinking about all the same.

 

[Spaceballz]

For the moment, I rarely do anything with Genesis 9 figures. But it's only my personal take at the moment. That will surely change in time. I started not long ago with Daz and I am still building up my Genesis 8 library. Also, take into consideration that nowadays, the vast majority of releases on the official Daz Store are aimed at the Genesis 9 generation. And these come by the tens on a daily basis.

Yeah, I've started working with Gen 9 without ever thinking about assets, as I didn't really know about Genesis generations and the amount of assets available. Like you though I just picked one that I like and stuck with it. Now I'm set on that course and hope my hardware won't make me regret my choice!

 

[Spaceballz]

I've dabbled in Gen 9 a few times but find myself coming back to Gen 8. I think it's mostly a comfortability thing but also the number of assets and WIP items I have for Gen 8.

That said, I keep finding myself thinking "wow that looks amazing" on a lot of Gen 9 assets I see coming out. I'm sure I'll make the switch at some point.

If I were just starting out I would probably lean toward Gen 9. And of course there's nothing wrong with mixing the two.

Yes, that's probably what happened, When I started out not long ago, Gen 9 appealed to me more than Gen 8. That being said, I've seen some amazing work on Gen 8, but now I love working with G9 too much to switch to G8. Just like you, comfortability accounts for a lot.

 

[Spaceballz]

Have to agree with Richard Fappington G9 looks amazing, but it certainly replicable with 8.1 with a decent bit of modding. Just depends on how much effort you're willing to put into learning it. Though, I do agree with you, OP. I find G9 generally easier to work with. VRAM can be a bit of a problem with anything more than three, though. Unless you're on a A6000 or something.

You aren't getting this kind of detail with a 4k normal map on G8/8.1:

View attachment 3547717
View attachment 3547718

This is largely bone stock skin for G9 Daz Original figures, as well. Aside from some Base Color/Translusency Color (and Weight) tinkering, along with fixing up the Transmitted Measurement Distance to get rid of the rudolph nose on the lower one. A lot of people say the only difference between 8.1 and 9 are the 8K normal maps, but I feel like there's something more going on there. They render faster, react a bit more realistically to lighting, and generally have a lot more consistent quality across different vendors.

But it's important to make sure you have the hardware to go G9. The environments for Daz are only getting bigger (and thus more VRAM, which means less for figures), and the figures are only going to get higher quality from here. Not to speak of clothes or hair assets. It's all important to consider, especially if you're making a VN. If you're doing one-off renders, it's a little easier to ignore all that, but still worth thinking about all the same.

Yes, the stress on the hardware is a concern of mine. I haven't gone the VN route as of yet, since I am just beginning, I might want to explore that option later on. I have a very modest setup now, might upgrade later.

I'm sporting a Watercooled Ryzen 9 5900X 12 Cores/24 Threads CPU with a fan cooled EVGA RTX 3070 Ti with 8Gb VRAM. So far I haven't come across any problems with rendering, but so far I've only dabbled with one or two figures in a scene without much in the way of environment.

Is that setup decent or do you think I might push it to it's limits in the near future?

 

[MissFortune]

Yes, the stress on the hardware is a concern of mine. I haven't gone the VN route as of yet, since I am just beginning, I might want to explore that option later on. I have a very modest setup now, might upgrade later.

I'm sporting a Watercooled Ryzen 9 5900X 12 Cores/24 Threads CPU with a fan cooled EVGA RTX 3070 Ti with 8Gb VRAM. So far I haven't come across any problems with rendering, but so far I've only dabbled with one or two figures in a scene without much in the way of environment.

Is that setup decent or do you think I might push it to it's limits in the near future?

Your CPU is fine, really. I was working with a 10700 for quite a while, and am on a 13700k now. It makes very little difference as far as rendering goes, short of processing the scenes themselves.

Up until recently, I was working with a regular 3080. 10GB of VRAM tended to barely be enough for two (or three if I used Scene Optimizer extensively) figures and an environment. So, VRAM constraints might be a problem if you go the VN route. If a 3090/4090 is out of your price bracket (which is plenty understandable), something like a 4060/4070 ti (both of which have 16GB of VRAM) might be workable. Though, a used 3090 might be more worth depending on who you ask. But I'd save all that for when you decide to you want to make a VN/game/etc.

You can probably work with a 3070 for now, though mixed with the lower VRAM and cuda core count, it might be a little tight. Scene Optimizer might be worth looking into later on, if you start going over your card's VRAM max.

 

[Spaceballz]

Your CPU is fine, really. I was working with a 10700 for quite a while, and am on a 13700k now. It makes very little difference as far as rendering goes, short of processing the scenes themselves.

Up until recently, I was working with a regular 3080. 10GB of VRAM tended to barely be enough for two (or three if I used Scene Optimizer extensively) figures and an environment. So, VRAM constraints might be a problem if you go the VN route. If a 3090/4090 is out of your price bracket (which is plenty understandable), something like a 4060/4070 ti (both of which have 16GB of VRAM) might be workable. Though, a used 3090 might be more worth depending on who you ask. But I'd save all that for when you decide to you want to make a VN/game/etc.

You can probably work with a 3070 for now, though mixed with the lower VRAM and cuda core count, it might be a little tight. Scene Optimizer might be worth looking into later on, if you start going over your card's VRAM max.

Yes I've been contemplating upgrading for a while now, but the prices are a bit out there. Like you said, If I want to make a move right away, I'd go with the used 3090. Most likely, I'll wait for another generation of GPUs to launch and maybe get a deal on a 40 Series. That being said, for now, I am a long way from trying to make a VN/Game as I am still learning, I don't want to start a project and have an uneven quality. Crappy quality at the start to moderately competent by the end. So far I've been able to ''cheat'' with environments, I usually delete everything that isn't directly inside the shot, It helps a bit with work flow. Or even better go the minimalist way and reduce the clutter in the shot. Makes for slightly less cohesive shots, but hey, I'm still learning!

 

[felldude]

I prefer G9

The scaling parameters on the chest as well as translate controls just work better then G8.1

The whole one model for feminine masculine through me off at first but I just imported the feminine morph into blender as a shape key (Some times I forget to zero it)

This has been brought up in another thread but G8 defaults to Sub-D 2 render level (G9 is set at 3)
This is around a 200MB difference per character if its left that way (1GB for 5 characters in a scene)
If the scene can't fit into VRAM you will think that G8 renders twice as fast as G9 (They are around the same if your scene fits)

Also as to the amount of free content.

My morphs for G8.1 Iris Scale and Pupils Dilate where used in about 90% of the image contest regarding G8
(Via the content creator credits)
It is my opinion that is why they where made and included by DAZ in G9

I have 100's of morphs that I have never released for G9.
I got tired of packaging them up and not getting a comment or like.

 

[drapak12]

Have to agree with Richard Fappington G9 looks amazing, but it certainly replicable with 8.1 with a decent bit of modding. Just depends on how much effort you're willing to put into learning it. Though, I do agree with you, OP. I find G9 generally easier to work with. VRAM can be a bit of a problem with anything more than three, though. Unless you're on a A6000 or something.

You aren't getting this kind of detail with a 4k normal map on G8/8.1:

View attachment 3547717
View attachment 3547718

This is largely bone stock skin for G9 Daz Original figures, as well. Aside from some Base Color/Translusency Color (and Weight) tinkering, along with fixing up the Transmitted Measurement Distance to get rid of the rudolph nose on the lower one. A lot of people say the only difference between 8.1 and 9 are the 8K normal maps, but I feel like there's something more going on there. They render faster, react a bit more realistically to lighting, and generally have a lot more consistent quality across different vendors.

But it's important to make sure you have the hardware to go G9. The environments for Daz are only getting bigger (and thus more VRAM, which means less for figures), and the figures are only going to get higher quality from here. Not to speak of clothes or hair assets. It's all important to consider, especially if you're making a VN. If you're doing one-off renders, it's a little easier to ignore all that, but still worth thinking about all the same.

You can find couple similar thread and always someone claims that G9 materials have better shaders. I do not understand why do you think that any shaders belongs to any genesis generation? You can use PBR or 3DL shaders on G9 and microdetails on G8, G3 or any other shape (not only figure). Texture resolution is not related with Genesis version as well. There are few converters which let you exchange textures between G8 and G9.

 

[MissFortune]

You can find couple similar thread and always someone claims that G9 materials have better shaders. I do not understand why do you think that any shaders belongs to any genesis generation? You can use PBR or 3DL shaders on G9 and microdetails on G8, G3 or any other shape (not only figure). Texture resolution is not related with Genesis version as well. There are few converters which let you exchange textures between G8 and G9.

Context is important in threads like this. Sure, I could go all into SSS and the specific science behind it, but OP is only asking what's better between G8 or G9. Not about converters, textures, or the process of converting such textures. Nor should he learning about PBR, 3DL (which I question if people even use anymore.), or even Uber quite yet. 90% of it would go over his head while he's got more important things to learn first.

I kept it fairly rudimentary as OP is a newer user. There's no point in talking about shaders or their complexities with someone who's only trying to decide between G8/8.1 and G9. Out of the box, G9 looks better than 95% of what 8/8.1 has to offer. You can put 8.1 and 9 Daz Originals (often the best Daz has to offer) side by side with no other adjustments, and the results aren't particularly close:



Both are completely untouched outside of Translucency Weight. One spotlight and nothing more. 8.1 (right) lacks color, variation in skin tone, the pore variance isn't quite there, and more notably, I'd say it reacts worse to light. Whatever changed between 8.1 and 9 under the hood was enough to be noticeable, at the very least. That isn't to say the shaders are better alone, but the entire G9 package is overall better than anything before it.

So, sure, you can mix all of these textures on different generations. But I don't really think all the effort it tends to take is worth the result. Typically, at least. Converters exist, but that doesn't mean they're good. Or easy to do. Especially when the alternative is just loading a G9 figure and getting to work.

 

[drapak12]

Context is important in threads like this. Sure, I could go all into SSS and the specific science behind it, but OP is only asking what's better between G8 or G9. Not about converters, textures, or the process of converting such textures. Nor should he learning about PBR, 3DL (which I question if people even use anymore.), or even Uber quite yet. 90% of it would go over his head while he's got more important things to learn first.

I kept it fairly rudimentary as OP is a newer user. There's no point in talking about shaders or their complexities with someone who's only trying to decide between G8/8.1 and G9. Out of the box, G9 looks better than 95% of what 8/8.1 has to offer. You can put 8.1 and 9 Daz Originals (often the best Daz has to offer) side by side with no other adjustments, and the results aren't particularly close:

View attachment 3560560

Both are completely untouched outside of Translucency Weight. One spotlight and nothing more. 8.1 (right) lacks color, variation in skin tone, the pore variance isn't quite there, and more notably, I'd say it reacts worse to light. Whatever changed between 8.1 and 9 under the hood was enough to be noticeable, at the very least. That isn't to say the shaders are better alone, but the entire G9 package is overall better than anything before it.

So, sure, you can mix all of these textures on different generations. But I don't really think all the effort it tends to take is worth the result. Typically, at least. Converters exist, but that doesn't mean they're good. Or easy to do. Especially when the alternative is just loading a G9 figure and getting to work.

You are right, new assets are better then older. Just like new cars are bettter then older. (No offence, no ironic it is just truth).
Default G9 and new figures assets are easier to use.
BTW your spotlight are not default. They looks good (I guess with minimal efford and simple light setting) but this is due to your skill and style/taste not because they are G9 or G8.

 

[Turning Tricks]

My latest project is exclusively G9.

My first project is a mix between G8 and 8.1.

The #1 advantage to G8 (atm) is that it has the largest amount of assets out there. But that knife can cut both ways, as a lot of those assets have been used so much, players are sick of seeing them. G9 assets are brand new, so they are a breath of fresh air. Also, clothing converters are starting to appear that can take G9 clothing and convert them for G8, for those still working in G8.

It's a personal choice ultimately, but I see that G9 assets are coming out more and more frequently now, and many asset creators are jumping completely onboard. I also get the feeling that DAZ Studio is gearing up towards moving away from G8 and 8.1 products completely. Just a feeling I have from seeing how they are promoting things lately.

Another thing I love about G9 is having only one library of clothing, since all of it can be applied to Male and Female builds. Of course, a lot of clothing is tweaked for one build over the other, but it's much easier to work with and many of the best morph control apps are already released in G9 (such as Fit Control).

 

[Spaceballz]

My latest project is exclusively G9.

My first project is a mix between G8 and 8.1.

The #1 advantage to G8 (atm) is that it has the largest amount of assets out there. But that knife can cut both ways, as a lot of those assets have been used so much, players are sick of seeing them. G9 assets are brand new, so they are a breath of fresh air. Also, clothing converters are starting to appear that can take G9 clothing and convert them for G8, for those still working in G8.

It's a personal choice ultimately, but I see that G9 assets are coming out more and more frequently now, and many asset creators are jumping completely onboard. I also get the feeling that DAZ Studio is gearing up towards moving away from G8 and 8.1 products completely. Just a feeling I have from seeing how they are promoting things lately.

Another thing I love about G9 is having only one library of clothing, since all of it can be applied to Male and Female builds. Of course, a lot of clothing is tweaked for one build over the other, but it's much easier to work with and many of the best morph control apps are already released in G9 (such as Fit Control).

Hi there! Thanks for your insights! And yes much more assets for G8F so far, but like you say more and more G9 is coming out everyday. At first I was only working with G9 as I thought it look slightly better and had more poses control. But I've started to mix both G8 and G9 in some renders. Sometimes poses don't align properly, with couples above all else, but are usually an easy tweak. I had to make the switch because like you said, a lot of assets are still missing on G9. Here is one I made with a G9 and G8F on the same render:


Turned out alright I think!

Have a nice day my friend!

 

[MissFortune]

Another thing I love about G9 is having only one library of clothing, since all of it can be applied to Male and Female builds. Of course, a lot of clothing is tweaked for one build over the other, but it's much easier to work with and many of the best morph control apps are already released in G9 (such as Fit Control).

Auto-Fit and/or Parenting can make use of much of the 8/8.1 assets, as well. G9 stuff tends to be more hit or miss when going backward with them.