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VN Ren'Py Not Going Back [Ch.1] [Cicada]

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cicadaNGB

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Apr 28, 2023
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This is just a comment and not an attempt to sway you one way or the other, but my question is whether there is enough clarity about the branching in the game or not. My frustration about multiple branching in general is when it's done without clarity which led to players either having to blindly do trial-n-error which is very time consuming, or having to rely on mod/walkthrough which IMO kind of defeats the purpose of having choice-n-consequence in the game.

If the game is well done, I'm more than happy to replay or have multiple saves.
Very valid question. My hope is that most of the branching will make sense as you play. It may not always be obvious, but my intent is that there is always a traceable reason for everything to happen. So, to give the example from Ch2 without spoiling it:

Premise: a scene with either character A or B. In Ch1, there was a choice which opens up the option to have this scene with B. If you did not pick the appropriate choice in Ch1, you default to having the scene with A. However, you are given a yes/no choice in Ch2 to set up having the scene with B. If yes, you get the version with B. If no, you default back to having the scene with A. That might be a bit confusing, but I hope you get what I mean.

Obviously, with branching, it's pretty basic atm and easy to keep track of. Will it all make sense when we're in later chapters? Hopefully, but we'll see. I'd hope that it's never (unintentionally) unclear why things are happening or why you are on/off certain paths. I wouldn't think it'd ever end up being trial and error. Most of it, I believe, will be intuitive (ie the more favorably you interact with a character the more the branching leans that way etc.). I don't think you'll ever be off of a character's path without realizing. (Also, for what it's worth, there are multiple starts points for some character paths. So even if you miss the early one, for some there will still be options down the line. For example you don't need to have gotten the Mia scene in ch1 to be on her path, but not getting it means you might have to get onto her path later). Again, sorry if this is a bit confusing. It's one of those things that makes sense in my head, but is a little hard to verbalize.
 
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FatGiant

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Jan 7, 2022
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Not abandoned, and never will be!

Why have 8 girls? Because I wanted to tell 8 stories. Interestingly enough, the first draft had 6. But I elevated two other girls because I felt as though their stories and characters warranted further detail. I know some people are one-and-done with these games, but other like replaying them. Personally, I'm in the latter group. Thus, when making my own game, I figured replay value would be something worth having. For example, in chapter 2 there's gonna be two mutually exclusive scenes (non-sex). You can't get both in one playthrough. Why restrict content from the player? Because there's value in withholding information. There's value in having choice with impact. And, for me, there's value in offering the opportunity to replay a game.

As for the harem situation: I just don't want to. It doesn't make sense for the story. I'm aware what site I'm on, but this game is story first. Always has been, always will be, and I'm not compromising the story for the sake of catering to the masses. I'm more than happy leaving money on the table. If I was doing this for money, I would have a Patreon by now. If I was doing this for money, I wouldn't be putting as much effort into the game as I am. If I was doing this for money, I would have released another Chapter ages ago, with only a few hundred renders, and put it behind a paywall. Fuck that. I'm doing this shit my way. I'm not intending on pissing people off by not having a harem route, but the notion that there's no actual reason for it is absurd.
If it alienates a section of potential fans of the game, so be it. I've already alienated enough people by daring to write non-MC male characters in my game who have some semblance of personality. I'm not here to cater to people. I'm here to make a game, tell a story that I believe in. I don't care if a bunch of people don't play it, because ones who do are gonna have a great fucking time. nt l ch pt r s x.

I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack in any way. Reading it back it feels like I'm angrier than I actually am. It's actually just a combination of frustration and passion. I'm frustrated because Chapter 2 has taken me fucking ages to do because I'm trying to do it right. That's the passion. Your opinion is obviously perfectly valid, and probably a much more common stance than the one I hold. But I'm making this game for me, to the best of my admittedly limited abililty. And I'm not gonna compromise for any reason. When this game is done, however long it takes, I want to look back at it knowing I did it exactly how I wanted to. And whoever wants to come along for the ride is more than welcome, and I hope that they enjoy the journey.
OK. Thanks for a clarified position.

The ONLY, and I am sorry I have to insist, truly ONLY reason I choose to play Harem games is the cheating fuckery. You go and fuck a ton of chicks, cheating on all of them until the Dev comes and makes you choose just one. This gamification of cheating, fucks me out of my mind.

You wanna do it right? Then don't allow cheating. Don't let players try-before-you-buy. Make them choose before they even have a chance with them. If you do it like that, I don't need an Harem. I may even replay.

If instead, you choose to make it like so many have done before, let (encourage) the player fuck all the girls, then spring a choice on them, then, forget it, this is not a game I'm willing to play.

I'm not a puritan, I understand the attraction of cheating without consequences, the thrill of trying to not get caught, the sneaking and the lies and the pretending. If that is what you call Romance, I'm sorry, I'm fucking out. That's why I prefer a Harem, it is at least HONEST. Playing games like that with that much cheating, makes me feel dirty. While in an Harem, everything and everyone is along for it, it is a stupid distinction, but it is an important one.

So, OK, no Harem here, fine. Then how is this going to play out? Choose first, sex later, or, (as is customary in games like this) sex first choose later? If it is the first one, you earn my respect and I will play it, if it is the second, absolutely not, games like that are the reason Harems are my preferred choice.

It may look like I am demanding you change your game, no, I am not. I just asking for clarification, is this a cheating game or a Romance game? My definition of Romance doesn't include pursuing and bedding many women at the same time (unless, obviously, it is an Harem and everyone is OK with it).

Peace :(
 
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Skylaroo

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May 28, 2017
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Premise: a scene with either character A or B. In Ch1, there was a choice which opens up the option to have this scene with B. If you did not pick the appropriate choice in Ch1, you default to having the scene with A. However, you are given a yes/no choice in Ch2 to set up having the scene with B. If yes, you get the version with B. If no, you default back to having the scene with A. That might be a bit confusing, but I hope you get what I mean.
I get what you mean, but my main concern is about the clarity itself. Using the example above, if I get scene A, as long as I'm aware there is a scene B that I missed and I know why I missed it (therefore, knowing what different choice to make in the replay/other save to get scene B if I want to), then I'm 100% fine. But if I'm not aware there is a scene B that I missed, I wouldn't have known that I missed something and I wouldn't have known what to choose differently.

For example you don't need to have gotten the Mia scene in ch1 to be on her path, but not getting it means you might have to get onto her path later
Now this is a great example of clarity question. While it's good that we don't need to get Mia scene in chapter 1 to be on her path (sorry I really don't remember who Mia is, I'm just using her name as an example here), would the player be aware of that? Or in other words, how would the player know the importance of a choice between something that is fairly inconsequential and something that must be picked?

Sorry if I sound like I want to be spoonfed the information in-game, I really am not asking for that. It's just that when it comes to branching in traditional games, they are often fairly obvious (ex: if you choose to spare the dragon instead of killing it then it'd come back and help you later on in the game, or if your character is X class then you have access to this side-quest, etc), but it's totally different in VN format where there are often TONS of choices and we don't necessarily know the weight of each choice unless we look at the code. And as the game grows, there are only going to be more and more choices and variables.

Maybe a good compromise is in-game Gallery? It's good enough to tell the players what they miss (if any) without really giving away all the answers as to how to get them. This is all just food for thought kind of thing though and definitely not a priority by any means. I know you already have a lot on your plate.

My definition of Romance doesn't include pursuing and bedding many women at the same time (unless, obviously, it is an Harem and everyone is OK with it).
This makes zero sense. You, as the player, decide who you pursue and bed. If your definition of romance is not pursuing and bedding many women at the same time, then choose the option to only pursue and bed 1 woman. Take ownership of your own action rather than blaming the game for giving the option to pursue and bed many women at the same time (not saying that this game does it btw).
 

FatGiant

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Jan 7, 2022
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This makes zero sense. You, as the player, decide who you pursue and bed. If your definition of romance is not pursuing and bedding many women at the same time, then choose the option to only pursue and bed 1 woman. Take ownership of your own action rather than blaming the game for giving the option to pursue and bed many women at the same time (not saying that this game does it btw).
You seem to not comprehend what is being told to you, when you (the player) doesn't know they have to choose (when they even have a choice) making such a decision is potentially game ending.

I do take responsibility, but I do also play the game that is offered. And refusing any and all offers except the girl I've chosen is HOW I play these stupid cheating games that pretend to call themselves Romantic. The only difference is, if you (the Dev) make a game where all the girls offer themselves BEFORE a choice is made, I will NOT replay. If you kindly ask me to choose before the offers, well I will, maybe, replay if the game has managed to interest me.

Pick and choose in my words all you like. It doesn't change anything. As far as I am aware, this is a single player game to be played how we see fit, I have explained how I intend to play it and why, what you think of it, and how you play it, make zero sense to me.

Also, about you wanting to know if the choices leave content hidden, assume Yes, always, that's the point of the choices. That's, simply put, why there are Walkthrough Mods everywhere.

Peace :(
 
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cicadaNGB

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Apr 28, 2023
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OK. Thanks for a clarified position.

The ONLY, and I am sorry I have to insist, truly ONLY reason I choose to play Harem games is the cheating fuckery. You go and fuck a ton of chicks, cheating on all of them until the Dev comes and makes you choose just one. This gamification of cheating, fucks me out of my mind.

You wanna do it right? Then don't allow cheating. Don't let players try-before-you-buy. Make them choose before they even have a chance with them. If you do it like that, I don't need an Harem. I may even replay.

If instead, you choose to make it like so many have done before, let (encourage) the player fuck all the girls, then spring a choice on them, then, forget it, this is not a game I'm willing to play.

I'm not a puritan, I understand the attraction of cheating without consequences, the thrill of trying to not get caught, the sneaking and the lies and the pretending. If that is what you call Romance, I'm sorry, I'm fucking out. That's why I prefer a Harem, it is at least HONEST. Playing games like that with that much cheating, makes me feel dirty. While in an Harem, everything and everyone is along for it, it is a stupid distinction, but it is an important one.

So, OK, no Harem here, fine. Then how is this going to play out? Choose first, sex later, or, (as is customary in games like this) sex first choose later? If it is the first one, you earn my respect and I will play it, if it is the second, absolutely not, games like that are the reason Harems are my preferred choice.

It may look like I am demanding you change your game, no, I am not. I just asking for clarification, is this a cheating game or a Romance game? My definition of Romance doesn't include pursuing and bedding many women at the same time (unless, obviously, it is an Harem and everyone is OK with it).

Peace :(
Apologies for the delay in reply, been a busy time and I wanted to wait until I had the time to properly respond.

I feel the salient point to start with is that I don't think this game will be for you. While I didn't go into the game with the intention of deliberately gamifying cheating, as you describe it, that is, I think, what it would be considered.
I want the game to be able to be played in pretty much any way a player might want, within certain story-related restrictions. And that included playing the field, seeing as that's a big part of college for many people, given the amount of new people you tend to meet at this point of life.
So, while it certainly would be possible to pick one girl and stick to them, or go with no girl at all even, the game is supposed to be, to an extent, emblematic of real life. So, the options are there to be non-committal and fuck around. Which as far as I understand does go against what you believe in. Which is perfectly valid.

For what it's worth, and at risk of spoiling future content, any playing the field and fucking around will have consequences. Trying to be with too many girls at once won't work. I've played a few games where the MC sleeps with a bunch of girls who are supposed to be friends but somehow none of them are aware of what's going on, like they don't exist outside of the MC's life and wouldn't talk to each other about that sort of stuff. It baffles me.

But that's just an aside, really. As for the sex-first vs decision-first thing? Genuinely, and, again, at risk of spoiling future content, it depends on the girl. Every character is different. Some are easier than others. Some you'll need to be more perseverant with, having tighter boundaries for what's acceptable for the player to have done etc. And others will be more forgiving, so to speak. For the most part, though, it's sex first.

I hope that appropriately addresses the points you made/asked about. Sorry the game won't be for you. Appreciate your interest, though.
 
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Milton749

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Apologies for the delay in reply, been a busy time and I wanted to wait until I had the time to properly respond.

I feel the salient point to start with is that I don't think this game will be for you. While I didn't go into the game with the intention of deliberately gamifying cheating, as you describe it, that is, I think, what it would be considered.
I want the game to be able to be played in pretty much any way a player might want, within certain story-related restrictions. And that included playing the field, seeing as that's a big part of college for many people, given the amount of new people you tend to meet at this point of life.
So, while it certainly would be possible to pick one girl and stick to them, or go with no girl at all even, the game is supposed to be, to an extent, emblematic of real life. So, the options are there to be non-committal and fuck around. Which as far as I understand does go against what you believe in. Which is perfectly valid.

For what it's worth, and at risk of spoiling future content, any playing the field and fucking around will have consequences. Trying to be with too many girls at once won't work. I've played a few games where the MC sleeps with a bunch of girls who are supposed to be friends but somehow none of them are aware of what's going on, like they don't exist outside of the MC's life and wouldn't talk to each other about that sort of stuff. It baffles me.

But that's just an aside, really. As for the sex-first vs decision-first thing? Genuinely, and, again, at risk of spoiling future content, it depends on the girl. Every character is different. Some are easier than others. Some you'll need to be more perseverant with, having tighter boundaries for what's acceptable for the player to have done etc. And others will be more forgiving, so to speak. For the most part, though, it's sex first.

I hope that appropriately addresses the points you made/asked about. Sorry the game won't be for you. Appreciate your interest, though.
Thanks, don't know about others, but your detailed explanation is helpful and as I'll be continuing to give it a go. Most people are just trying to get answers about what's involved and decide whether or not to play.

You answer was so much better than the very common "sorry, can't tell you, I don't spoil anything". Great job of connecting with people, without actually spoiling anything.
 
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cicadaNGB

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Apr 28, 2023
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I get what you mean, but my main concern is about the clarity itself. Using the example above, if I get scene A, as long as I'm aware there is a scene B that I missed and I know why I missed it (therefore, knowing what different choice to make in the replay/other save to get scene B if I want to), then I'm 100% fine. But if I'm not aware there is a scene B that I missed, I wouldn't have known that I missed something and I wouldn't have known what to choose differently.


Now this is a great example of clarity question. While it's good that we don't need to get Mia scene in chapter 1 to be on her path (sorry I really don't remember who Mia is, I'm just using her name as an example here), would the player be aware of that? Or in other words, how would the player know the importance of a choice between something that is fairly inconsequential and something that must be picked?

Sorry if I sound like I want to be spoonfed the information in-game, I really am not asking for that. It's just that when it comes to branching in traditional games, they are often fairly obvious (ex: if you choose to spare the dragon instead of killing it then it'd come back and help you later on in the game, or if your character is X class then you have access to this side-quest, etc), but it's totally different in VN format where there are often TONS of choices and we don't necessarily know the weight of each choice unless we look at the code. And as the game grows, there are only going to be more and more choices and variables.

Maybe a good compromise is in-game Gallery? It's good enough to tell the players what they miss (if any) without really giving away all the answers as to how to get them. This is all just food for thought kind of thing though and definitely not a priority by any means. I know you already have a lot on your plate.


This makes zero sense. You, as the player, decide who you pursue and bed. If your definition of romance is not pursuing and bedding many women at the same time, then choose the option to only pursue and bed 1 woman. Take ownership of your own action rather than blaming the game for giving the option to pursue and bed many women at the same time (not saying that this game does it btw).
Sorry for the late response, have been busy and wanted to wait until I had time to properly answer this bc it looks like it might get a bit complex, we'll see.

With this first example, I don't figure it'll be immediately obvious you've missed a scene depending on what choice you made. Here, you'll get scene B if you establish yourself preliminarily on character B's path in ch1. Otherwise it defaults to A. If you have established yourself on B's path, you'll still get a yes/no choice to get this scene with them, where a no would again default you back to A. This is because the scene itself is necessary, but the other character involved isn't. The difference in the scenes are a change in background information on characters, so what and when you learn things about certain people.
With this example, the option were essentially based on the idea that people interested in character B can opt into the scene with them, and people not interested in B will get A instead. So in this instance it's not going to be obvious that there's a completely different version of the scene.
This is partly intentional. While I appreciate clarity of information is important, particularly for the big decisions (I don't intend to Alex's pen anyone), I also kind of want people to miss some stuff. One of the things I personally love about Being A Dik, to use as an example, is there's a bunch of stuff in that game I've never fucking seen. And while this isn't going to be anywhere near the scope of that game, I do enjoy the way that that is reflective of real life.

In the example with Mia, that's a slightly easier explanation I think. For the scene to be available the player must have made however many Mia-positive choices to have her interested, and then choose to go to the gym with her. And it's pretty straight-forward from there. A player who is enamored with Mia early on will quite likely get this scene and be on her path. But if a player didn't like her that much, but changes their mind later in the playthrough there will still be a jump-on point. In this instance, it should be relatively obvious that there's a scene with Mia earlier on, seeing as just make pro-Mia choices up to that point pretty much leads to it.
Now, is it necessarily obvious which choices are pro-Mia choices? No, not really. Generally speaking, being nice to someone will probably make them like you more, but in this game I've tried to give the characters some level of individuality, so some things will work better that others.
Again, I'm not trying to Alex's pen anyone, but there is going to be a certain degree of obfuscation to what does and doesn't work, because I'm trying to write things vaguely emblematic of real life. Overall, though, when it comes to pursuing love interests, it should be pretty easy and obvious to at least be on the right track.

Very valid point about the weight of choices. I think I partially covered this already, but for the sake of clarity a lot of the choices are minor. They'll influence how much a character likes you, and you'll need to be liked by a character to a certain level at certain points in the game for things to be available. As far as I can tell (and this might change as I actually write and code stuff) there aren't any unreasonable cut offs that won't make sense or feel arbitrary. Major decisions I think are going to feel major, because they'll be decisions that noticeably hold more weight (i.e. opening up to people, revealing or withholding certain information, and also pursuing certain other people, for example). My hope is that if you're interested in a girl, you should be pretty easily able to be on their path. It should feel intuitive, assuming the player is able to read the girl's personality of course and gauge what will and won't work with them and what their boundaries are. This is easy to say while making ch2, of course, where things are still pretty open. It might get a little hazier in the future but I hope I've planned things out well enough that I'm not going to make any major story/continuity/coding/whatever mistakes.

For what it's worth, coding is the thing I am most concerned about. I'm very happy with the story, I'm improving with the art side of things (even if I wish I could make that go quicker) but coding is my weakest point. I'm slightly concerned about managing variables in, say, five chapters time, because I just don't know what it's going to look like. I'm optimistic that things will go smoothly but I just can't tell. So far, so good, though.

I have considered adding a gallery, and tried coding one in. Based off of what I just said above, you can probably guess that things didn't get too far. So right now that's on the backburner.

Hope this isn't too confusing. I thought things might get a bit complex, and looking back at how long this reply ended up being, yeah, it did. So hopefully I've explained things at least somewhat well. It would be easier to talk about it once ch2 is actually out, because then I can literally point at choices and go 'this means that happened, that means this happened' but it's a little tricky with having to be so vague. I guess the overall point is that the real major things should be relatively obvious, particularly when it comes to being on/off a girl's path. But some of the intricacies may not be immediately obvious on a first playthrough.
 

cicadaNGB

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Apr 28, 2023
37
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Thanks, don't know about others, but your detailed explanation is helpful and as I'll be continuing to give it a go. Most people are just trying to get answers about what's involved and decide whether or not to play.

You answer was so much better than the very common "sorry, can't tell you, I don't spoil anything". Great job of connecting with people, without actually spoiling anything.
If someone takes the time to show interest and ask a question about the game, I'm going to do my best to answer. To be honest, part of it is just the fact I love talking about this project as I'm so passionate about it.
But also, I want to be honest with people. I'm well aware this is a game that a lot of people aren't going to like or want to play. That much was clear with the first release, and I saw how many people were annoyed by the male characters in the game. And it's probably going to continue as things go on. But I don't mind. People can like what they like, and I'll be honest as to whether this is going to be good for them.
But yeah, like anyone wanting to tell a story, I don't want to spoil stuff. Which can make explaining difficult sometimes. So I'm grateful for those who are understanding too, particularly as the answers can be either confusing or vague.
 
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Skylaroo

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Hope this isn't too confusing. I thought things might get a bit complex, and looking back at how long this reply ended up being, yeah, it did. So hopefully I've explained things at least somewhat well. It would be easier to talk about it once ch2 is actually out, because then I can literally point at choices and go 'this means that happened, that means this happened' but it's a little tricky with having to be so vague. I guess the overall point is that the real major things should be relatively obvious, particularly when it comes to being on/off a girl's path. But some of the intricacies may not be immediately obvious on a first playthrough.
Thanks for all that. It's perfectly understandable. I actually replayed chapter 1 a few days ago to refresh my memory and I still really like the game. I'm looking forward to play chapter 2 and see how all the choices are handled.
 

cicadaNGB

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Apr 28, 2023
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just curious, how long until the next update?
Okay, so, I'm hesitantly going to try and put actual numbers to this for the first time. I'm still not going to give a deadline or anything like that, but as you asked I'm going to try my best to estimate how long what I've got left will take. Please note that this won't be a guarantee, though.

I've got 6 scenes left to do. 1 will probably only take a day to do. 2 scenes will require a bit more prep work (setting up new environments, characters and outfits specific for these scenes) and are notably longer. These are the ones that make it a little difficult to guess how long things will take. I'm going to say that together they might take 2 weeks. I'm hoping one of them will actually render quite quickly once it's all set up, the other one is likely going to be a scene where each render takes quite a long time. The other 3 are going to need a lot of individual posing for each render, which will be more time-consuming. I've done similar scenes to these already, and so far they tend to take about a week to do.

So I'd say the remaining render time is about a month. Which sounds like a long time when I type it out. I'd like to say it won't take that long, because I want to be optimistic, but I don't want to make false promises or be one of those devs who say 'it's coming on this date' and then have to delay things. Also once things are all rendered I'll need a couple of days for any remaining postwork and image editing, as well as checking the game for continuity, errors, etc.

I know I said I don't want to make false promises or anything like that. So I hope I'm not about to. But I feel pretty confident in saying the update will be ready in June. I'll be very surprised if it's not, because that probably means something has gone quite wrong.

I hope I don't come back to this in a month's time and feel sad.
 

adagium

New Member
Feb 27, 2023
13
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Okay, so, I'm hesitantly going to try and put actual numbers to this for the first time. I'm still not going to give a deadline or anything like that, but as you asked I'm going to try my best to estimate how long what I've got left will take. Please note that this won't be a guarantee, though.

I've got 6 scenes left to do. 1 will probably only take a day to do. 2 scenes will require a bit more prep work (setting up new environments, characters and outfits specific for these scenes) and are notably longer. These are the ones that make it a little difficult to guess how long things will take. I'm going to say that together they might take 2 weeks. I'm hoping one of them will actually render quite quickly once it's all set up, the other one is likely going to be a scene where each render takes quite a long time. The other 3 are going to need a lot of individual posing for each render, which will be more time-consuming. I've done similar scenes to these already, and so far they tend to take about a week to do.

So I'd say the remaining render time is about a month. Which sounds like a long time when I type it out. I'd like to say it won't take that long, because I want to be optimistic, but I don't want to make false promises or be one of those devs who say 'it's coming on this date' and then have to delay things. Also once things are all rendered I'll need a couple of days for any remaining postwork and image editing, as well as checking the game for continuity, errors, etc.

I know I said I don't want to make false promises or anything like that. So I hope I'm not about to. But I feel pretty confident in saying the update will be ready in June. I'll be very surprised if it's not, because that probably means something has gone quite wrong.

I hope I don't come back to this in a month's time and feel sad.

take as long as you need, it's better if it isn't rushed
but it's nice to hear you aren't going to abandon the game
 
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