A discussion about "blank slate" and/or "good at everything" protagonists.

[Psychopomp]

Hey there. Lemme ramble a bit. Also, I don't know if a discussion like that was already created before. If so, I'm sorry. Just too lazy to search for it.

I was in the process of making some very very early plans for a text game (that might never come out, I was just bored) inspired by the likes of Trials in Tainted Space, Corruption of Champions and Lilith's Throne the other night and, while planning some characters and basic plot stuff, I came up with this internal debate about the protagonists.

A lot of games, especially in this porn game medium, take one of two choices:

1 - The character is a blank state. He has no personality, sometimes not even a backstory that goes beyond a single line of text, much like old school JRPG protagonists. I get it. In a choice-heavy game, like, let's take it out of the porn game spectrum, Skyrim or even the Shin Megami Tensei series, having a blank slate protagonist lets the player have a really bigger sense of choice and that what he does actually matter. If a character hasn't anything defined for him, you can do it yourself. But then, games like Witcher 3, in which Geralt has a personality (albeit a very cold and apathetic one due to his mutations) and backstory, still give you ways of choosing what you want to do and say and it still feels great, with the bonus of you actually seeing him saying what you wanted to say and getting mad, passionate or entertained by something (or even making dick jokes with Yennifer at some point), instead of just picking a line of text without any proper deliver and seeing people react without a major impact.
I, myself, find the blank slate character to be pretty boring. The "it's supposed to feel like you're there instead of a third person" doesn't really work for me. I think it's way, way cooler to have a character which you can care about and want to see succeeding, with a defined personality and background or at least a mutable background and personality (like letting you choose at character creation), but without completely throwing those elements out of the window for a not so successful attempt at making you project yourself onto him. Trials in Tainted Space almost nails that, and it works pretty well. The character has a (semi-customizable) backstory and a purpose, but you can still customize him in every possible way. Including his personality. While pretty shallow in general, depending on if you choose "Kind", "Mischievous" or "Hard" a LOT of his interactions will change, especially his behaviors towards some impactful situations and his relations with other characters, even (or even more so) the sex sequences. Eventually, after playing for some time, you'll start to see him as a character of himself, and not just a lifeless avatar for you to control. I think that's pretty cool.
But I'm saying this to form a discussion. From my point of view, I think game developers and writes, in general, should take more risks when it comes to their protagonists. Create people, instead of robots. And speaking of robots...

2 - The character is good at everything. Ok. I get it. Life is harsh. Getting through a week and finally having time to relax at the weekends can be rough, and when you're playing a game you don't want to deal with more stress or have to be sad, angry, worried or anything like that. You just wanna have a good time, watch/read/play some pleasant and chill stories. But does every main character REALLY need to be a flawless human being? To have every girl turning into a brainless bimbo and falling for him at first sight? Having a giant penis? Succeed at everything he does without even really trying or having a background with it in the first place? Having really bad, dumb and twisted (sometimes evil) plans to overcome situations and be successful at them as a walking Deus Ex Machina? And even worse, having no consequence for it at all?
Being in control of a flawed human being with a unique personality and maybe even a unique way of seeing the world, which could get him into some troubles, and being surrounded by characters which feel like human beings with their own traits and tastes instead of just being walking onaholes/dildos be so prejudicial to the overall experience?
For me, having a main character that grows as you play is so much cooler. Developing him and his capacities according to the choices you make along the way just seems way more interesting.

But I don't know if that's just me. That's the point of this thread, I guess.

If I sounded aggressive at some point, I'm sorry. I'm not angry or anything, just legitimately curious. Lemme know what you think.

Does the blank slate character thing work for you? Having a character with defined (and maybe customizable) traits, a voice and thought-out lines in dialogues, and a background for which you can care about make for a better experience?

Does the character that's good at everything help you chill or makes for a more pleasurable experience? Having to fight for things or having a bigger immersion into the works of "just a porn game" would be too boring unless done precisely right?

Maybe you don't even mind those things at all?

I'll be reading to every single reply in this thread. Maybe not answering them if I don't have anything better than an "I see" or a "Thank you for your answer" to say. So, if you take your time to give me your thoughts, have a preemptive "Thank you!"

Cheers. Have a cute GIF I found randomly online to make this post a bit prettier.

 

[freedom.call]

The 'blank slates' tend to have very annoying personalities, especially the young uns. I don't think anyone should be good at 'everything' but I'm kinda tired of 'everyone' being sleepy, lazy, loudmouthed morons who discover women on their 18th birthday.

So, not really blank.

 

[jkkjjkjkjjkkkjjl]

The "good at everything" protagonist is always funny because it says a lot about the creator and his achievements in life. Protip: fixing a computer doesn't make you an engineer, lifting some weights doesn't make you strong and reading a book doesn't magically make you smarter.

 

[215303j]

Well, in my opinion, blank slate does help with self-insertion.
So it depends on the type of game you want to make.
For a romance game where the male protagonist falls in love with someone, without a lot of backstory, blank slate is excellent. For instance, DMD would not work if the MC was fully defined.
On the other hand, if you have a story-heavy game, like Depraved Awakenings, the MC desperately needs a backstory.

With regards to "the MC is good at everything", this also depends.
Personally I hate grinding in porn games. I also dislike "gameplay". I just want a good story with meaningful choices leading to different paths and scenes. So if I have to grind "give flowers" until "love stat > 80" and I get the next scene, I get bored and try to use the console instead. So if the MC is so great that he needs to give flowers only once, I'm all for that.
On the other hand, a superman-MC also kills the story, but how much depends on the game. In some games, it makes sense for the MC to lose sometimes. In other games, it would absolutely break the game.

 

[BeCe]

From a writing perspective, it would suck some serious hairy ass to put a tonne of effort into creating a fully fleshed out protagonist only for people to hate the character. Blank slates are safer I guess, but the longer a story goes the more annoying a blank slate will be, because you wouldn't be able to show any real character development. I like to think I've managed to transition from a blank slate to a slightly douchey arrogant protagonist with Occultus, thus getting the best of both worlds I hope.

As for the other question, again, being good at everything is the safe choice, these are porn games after all and people want to get to the meat. I tried a very minor amount of stat grinding for Occultus and immediately met with complaints.

 

[Zippity]

I can see a lot of the points you're making...

As to the "Blank Slate" personality in this genre... I see it handled differently by different developers, but a large proportion due tend to go with an open book with almost nothing written on the page, leaving it up to the player/reader to either discover what they want the character to do and experience, and to lead their character development... It's a bit more complex to do a proper visual novel/game in that fashion, but it's doable... Sometimes you see characters with "No substance" more so then a "Blank Slate", that may have no foot hold in reality, just wanting to have sex in any way possible, with no real personality, no real depth, usually a very basic history, and little to no character development at all... But I think it really comes down to the Style of the game and/or visual novel as to how it's going to be... Some developers take a lot of time to develop the characters personality and/or reveal it over time... Some developers are just making porn-in-a-box, and don't really give two hoots about the story or depth or meaning, just making some quick slam-bam back to back porn fest... In that case, does it matter if the protagonist is a "blank slate", not really...

I'm a proponent of story depth, meaningful character development, building various types of relationships with the various characters, seeing how the protagonist grows over time revealing his or her various character perks and flaws... Having lots of choice over how the protagonist developers is a perk I really enjoy, when it's handled right by the developer... I don't even mind if my choices make little difference in their over all character development as the protagonist, as long as their is some sort of development designed into the character by the story teller... Sometimes it can be small changes, and sometimes it can be total 180 degree changes... As long as it's done right, makes sense, and is enjoyable, I'm golden...

As to the "The character who is good at everything" or what I prefer to call the Super Hero/Super Heroine... It all, once again depends on the path the developers are taking with their product... Sometimes this is used, more or less to remove the need to delve into a particular element of the VN/Game progression... As an example, having the character start off rich, or well off enough to not have money issues... This then allows the developer to allow the player/reader to not worry about some of the mundane (and sometimes repetitive) nature of grinding out money during game play... Another example might be giving them perfect looks and machismo/charisma... To the point, that putting the reader/player through dozens of relationship building dates, and the mundane issue of being rejected by dozens of mates, that end up with nothing happening, becomes unnecessary... Sure, it's more realistic to do it that way, but it doesn't keep the ball rolling when telling an engaging story, with some sort of forward momentum, that doesn't bore the reader/player too easily... Motion pictures are a prime example of how timing and momentum is pivotal to keep the story moving forward and the plot progressing... Who wants to sit through an hour of speed dating before the right two characters finally move forward with either a romantic relationship, or just get it on and have their fun? No one... It's the same with Visual Novels and Games, you need to keep the player/reader engaged... But I'm getting off topic...

The Master at Everything motif can sometimes feel lazy, and is sometimes used as a crutch in weaker story writing, mostly in order to avoid having to deal with the reality of how a situation and/or relationship might actually progress... But again, I think it's not a hugely bad concept... Just sometimes, perhaps, it's a bit over used...

Zip

 

[W65]

Is there really a prevalence of that second kind of character, and if there is, are those characters written that way intentionally? What I mean is: are they written to succeed at everything as deliberate decision, or are they just by oversight not written to have failed at any point?

I mean, the MC is the avatar of the player to differing degrees in every game. In porn games, though, that degree tends to be a little higher, as there are a large number of players for whom that projection onto the MC is a critical part of enjoying the game. So, for a number of players the MC's failure is going to feel like their personal failure, especially if there wasn't anything they could've done about it. In a normal story, yeah that's something that deepens the character and that the player just has to live with. In a porn game, though, it might just get in the way of dicking off, and that might make a dev leery as it might drive players away.

It gets at that eternal and often-discussed question of to what degree the main character should be an entity that the player can project themselves onto, how much agency the MC has versus the player, and all that. In porn games, blank slate characters are often deliberately created either for the sake of customization or so that there aren't a lot of encumbrances that the player has to ignore to feel they're part of the action. I mean, I think there's need and room for both types of games for both types of audiences.

Now, I'm a little biased in that I mostly play games with actual gameplay and mechanics. In VNs the scales tip in kind of a different way because usually they have nothing but the story to go on. I don't have a lot to say about those.

 

[TranceTitan]

Blank slates kind of bore me as it's a lazy way to create a surrogate to the audience which is impossible if they are written by someone else to be a blank slate and still have specific things they do even out of player or viewer control. Agreeing with Zippity that it is doable but very carefully as to me in order to make the blank slate and in order to make sure the player gets the best experience they need to make every single detail about the character themselves. Characters like Link from The Legend of Zelda are characters but a weird definition to the "blank slate" that may or may not be accurate in how most of us see it as he has a defined appearance even though he doesn't speak in full sentences (just through grunts and pants).

A good at everything character general needs to be like a Skyrim character. Skills are already there even if they haven't learned them you can literally just work up to unlocking everything you are good at even if you aren't good at it in that moment. These characters are generally the other extreme to the player character as instead of a blank slate to slide yourself into you are playing as a power fantasy with no real way to slot in a personality as they might as well be the god of their world. The worst these characters can be is feared by all (Even literal gods who have lived thousands of years to see every kind of being that can exist) loved by all and respected by everyone even by people who have not met him yet. I feel these characters often stray into mary sue territory as their growth can be dependent on how awesome everyone around them thinks they are and how they get congratulated for doing everything.

To relay this back to porn and using the CoC example text adventures when done right have the options to write your own character in a world that can be created with them in it instead of a world created around them. A lot of games I've played have both types of characters but the one I lean on is blank slates as they can also lend to just a character that can be guided through player actions (again even if they are just created to be surrogate).

 

[OldMoonSong]

Both of these archetypes are often the result of bad or lazy writing, but not always.

Why put time and effort into writing a detailed, complex, motivated MC when most players will be happy to write themselves into him anyways?

You can identify whether a blank slate or Gary Lou (just made up masculine "Mary Sue" cuz idk the name for guys) is the result of bad writing simply by judging how developed the other characters are. Some games--even ones with good visuals--have girls with the personality of a brick.

In a blank slate character, it's easier to self-insert and imagine yourself as the character.

In something like the Witcher, I don't think you could do that the same way. Sure, Geralt is a great character and we direct how he acts, but the player is more of an observer than an agent within the story.

 

[TranceTitan]

Both of these archetypes are often the result of bad or lazy writing, but not always.

Why put time and effort into writing a detailed, complex, motivated MC when most players will be happy to write themselves into him anyways?

You can identify whether a blank slate or Gary Lou (just made up masculine "Mary Sue" cuz idk the name for guys) by judging how developed the other characters are. Some games--even ones with good visuals--have girls with the personality of a brick.

In a blank slate character, it's easier to self-insert and imagine yourself as the character.

In something like the Witcher, I don't think you could do that the same way. Sure, Geralt is a great character and we direct how he acts, but the player is more of an observer than an agent within the story.

You made a better point than what I was trying to make

 

[grtrader]

My opinion differs based on my mood and the type of game I am playing.
I am harder on game characters than I am on people in real life. Real people who are less capable or educated than myself I have no issue with what-so-ever. But it's funny a game character that can't do at least what I can in RL seems to annoy the hell out of me for some reason. But that isn't always the case the more well written the work and plot the less that gets to me because I am probably more involved in the story so I don't pay as much attention to the characters issues and simply accept it as being part of them.

Blank slates most the time start of to inept. They tell you are in a teen or tween character in a society that magic is normal and all you know is one simple cantrip. Didn't they say you were in high school or just finished school. What you were asleep all those years never learned jack from anyone else. Or you have a sword and you can barely wield it you are so bad a rabbit locked in a cage is kicking your rear or the chickens in the chicken coop are even tougher than you are.

But I also can't stand Mary Sue and Gary Stu characters. There are people who are naturally talented in some areas but I have yet to meat someone who is naturally talented in everything. I sure as hell am not. Ok, I'm not average but I worked my ass off to learn everything I did and build my talents and skills.

 

[Zippity]

My opinion differs based on my mood and the type of game I am playing.
I am harder on game characters than I am on people in real life. Real people who are less capable or educated than myself I have no issue with what-so-ever. But it's funny a game character that can't do at least what I can in RL seems to annoy the hell out of me for some reason. But that isn't always the case the more well written the work and plot the less that gets to me because I am probably more involved in the story so I don't pay as much attention to the characters issues and simply accept it as being part of them.

Blank slates most the time start of to inept. They tell you are in a teen or tween character in a society that magic is normal and all you know is one simple cantrip. Didn't they say you were in high school or just finished school. What you were asleep all those years never learned jack from anyone else. Or you have a sword and you can barely wield it you are so bad a rabbit locked in a cage is kicking your rear or the chickens in the chicken coop are even tougher than you are.

But I also can't stand Mary Sue and Gary Stu characters. There are people who are naturally talented in some areas but I have yet to meat someone who is naturally talented in everything. I sure as hell am not. Ok, I'm not average but I worked my ass off to learn everything I did and build my talents and skills.

Perhaps it comes down to relatability? Perhaps because you don't feel, the college student being stereotyped in the story as a super dumb jock is relatable to what you've really seen and or experienced when it comes to a college jock... There fore you don't feel it fits your ideal, of how a college jock should be portrayed in those sorts of stories/situations?

A lot of the time when these VN/Games include duper dumbed down, and maybe stereo typed characters, the believability of that character is pretty much thrown to the wind, to be taken which ever way the wind blows... I myself like to have some sort of believability in characters, most of the time... Even a small hint of it may suffice... Usually just depends on the story and how it's being presented...

Zip