VN A question on protag sexuality?

[PandaLulz]

I'm currently in the very early stages of blocking out a game, at the rate I am going at it is likely to be first playable near the end of year. Although the game's concept/theme is loosely based around a series of books, I am going to inject more adult themes into it.

As I work through the very basics I am often thinking about themes of sexuality within the game, and when it comes to the main character I am wanting to make him bisexual a little later into the games lifespan.

So, the questions of the day are;

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'
• Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?
• Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?)

After playing a lot of VN's I have noticed that the "gay" themes are not really mainstream and often do not survive long, and that is usually the same for a male character that is bi, but lesbianism is most definitely fine (when done good).

This game I am making is not going to be on Patreon, and will only be released here at certain intervals.

 

[kshyk]

I'm currently in the very early stages of blocking out a game, at the rate I am going at it is likely to be first playable near the end of year. Although the game's concept/theme is loosely based around a series of books, I am going to inject more adult themes into it.

As I work through the very basics I am often thinking about themes of sexuality within the game, and when it comes to the main character I am wanting to make him bisexual a little later into the games lifespan.

So, the questions of the day are;

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'
• Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?
• Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?)

After playing a lot of VN's I have noticed that the "gay" themes are not really mainstream and often do not survive long, and that is usually the same for a male character that is bi, but lesbianism is most definitely fine (when done good).

This game I am making is not going to be on Patreon, and will only be released here at certain intervals.

I would love a game with bisexual protagonist! This kind of game is on my wish list (right now, there's only one good game like this: Drawing My Life)

But I understand that some people might not like this kind of things.
So:

1. Make this game exactly the way you want, with bisex male protag.
It is impossible to make everyone happy and create a good game. This kind of stuff is not for everybody (like incest, ntr, femdom or bestiality). There are some people, like me, who's gonna love you for this game.

or

2. You could add an optional 'warning option' in settings menu - so people could avoid this kind of content.


“Follow your heart but take your brain with you”
Alfred Adler

 

[Hagatagar]

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'

Yes, if the story is good.

• Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?

No, something like this always feels like a spoiler.

• Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?)

No.
I can read the tags and if I still play the game, I expect this content to appear. In the best case, the author did not included this in the game to satisfy the crowds, but as a part of the story.

After playing a lot of VN's I have noticed that the "gay" themes are not really mainstream and often do not survive long, and that is usually the same for a male character that is bi, but lesbianism is most definitely fine (when done good).

Many player are like this:
'Hey, a new game! The art is very pretty! Fuck that, a genre I don't like/hate. I MUST post that I'am displeased with that! Hey Dev, change it, I don't like it and while you're at it, insert [fetish].'
You can always see this when a new game appears and it's super stupid.

1. Make this game exactly the way you want, with bisex male protag.
It is impossible to make everyone happy and create a good game. This kind of stuff is not for everybody (like incest, ntr, femdom or bestiality). There are some people, like me, who's gonna love you for this game.

This is important.

 

[Callowayaway]

The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of people here are only attracted to the fairer sex. That means that the best case scenario you're going to get is that people will skip past the gay scenes.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I have nothing against people of "whatever" sexual orientation. But for my own sake, I wouldn't be interested in play a game with "male" bi/gay content if its "forced" onto you. If it's tucked away in the game assets and only triggered by the players choices? Sure why not. There is plenty of games out there that have a plethora of tags/fetish's that I shy away from, because the lack of choice and get railroaded down a rabbit hole you don't want to dive into.

I could see a game such as this struggle with support though like Patreon (or whatever), because it would become bit of a niche, just as other games with "less" mainstream tags.

If a creator/dev want to make a game for their own sake, and the financial prospect of it, is of no concern, then can really blow all the whistles, cow bells, whatever. Then it wouldn't matter if the only person liking the game is the creator. But if the main focus is to make some sort of financial success, the sad gist of things is to appeal to mainstream and what fetish's is popular. However, seeing so many mediocre games get pushed into mainstream with little success, proves appeal to popular fetish's isn't enough if the quality is lacking.

 

[Joshua Tree]

The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of people here are only attracted to the fairer sex. That means that the best case scenario you're going to get is that people will skip past the gay scenes.

If the protag come across as "stereo typical" gay. I don't think that would been enough though. It just wouldn't feel right.

 

[Deleted member 1370694]

Personally I'm not interested in male on male action.

I think you should add an option beforehand to disable it, because for the players who DO like the male MC's bisexual content, it would potentially break their immersion if they get a warning message. So give an option to avoid it for those who ain't into it, but without breaking the immersion for those who like it. TL;DR an option to disable it via options or beforehand in the intro would be sufficient enough, I think.

 

[PandaLulz]

A lot of very good points raised here and is definitely in line with my concerns, and while financial gain isn't of interest to me (i'm in a relatively OK job at the moment, it is remote so I can spend a fair bit of time on things) I do want to have people at least play it, otherwise it really would be pointless.

As i'm releasing it directly to F95 and no where else, I would probably have like a kofi or something, but other than that - nothing else. I think F95 is a great platform and community, strongly believe that this place should be used more for creators rather than the likes of Patreon etc, but that's a whole different discussion.

I would have to try and read how content blockers / options work for Ren'Py and how to create them, as that would seem to be the safest route rather than explicitly stating in dialog "Hey, you're about to go down this route!". I'd probably also need to have a think on how to make it so players don't lose out on events while they are playing that version.

All new to this, it's very slow going but we shall see.

Thank you for the food for thought so far.

 

[anne O'nymous]

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'

It depend of two things :

1. Would you be interested by the game if the MC wasn't like that ?
   Unless it's a rarely depicted fetish that I'm in, I'll not play a game just because I like its sexual part. It need to be at least interesting. I play for the entertainment, so it need to give me that ; if I wanted to fap, there's tons of porn available and they don't need me to use my brain, nor to click regularly to advance the story.
2. Is it an option or not ?
   A game like SpaceCorps XXX by example cover the a large part of the "kink and deviancy" spectrum, including bisexuality, or even homosexuality for those who want... Well, somehow I wonder, RanliLabz , is heterosexuality an option or mandatoy ? Well, whatever... You've a lot of gay content, whatever directly or not (like cum swapping by example). But all this is optional, the player decide if he want to see it or not.
   And because of this, the fact that the MC is relatively effeminate don't seem to bother the players. Alright, he have a little something "gay", but he act like a totally straight alpha guy if it's what the player want, so there's no problems.

After playing a lot of VN's I have noticed that the "gay" themes are not really mainstream and often do not survive long, and that is usually the same for a male character that is bi, but lesbianism is most definitely fine (when done good).

Which is everything except surprising. Even when counting both gay and bisexual male, there less than 50% of the population interested by those games. At the opposite, are interested in lesbian games all the straight males, all the bisexual males and women, and all the lesbians. There's clearly a bigger public for them.
This said, I wouldn't have used "mainstream" for something related to the sexual orientation. It's not about fashion, but about personal preference, and it's something that will never change.

 

[riktor]

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'
• Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?
• Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?)

• Probably not, unless the story strikes me as particularly interesting.
• I'd want to know as soon as possible, before even downloading the game preferably. if you mean an in game alert before such scenes, I'd prefer a simple option at the start to enable / disable gay content.
• An option to avoid such is the only way I'd play. even then only if it can be avoided without harming the narrative or extremely shortening the game.

Granted I'm likely among the most vanilla users on this site.

 

[RanliLabz]

A game like SpaceCorps XXX by example cover the a large part of the "kink and deviancy" spectrum, including bisexuality, or even homosexuality for those who want... Well, somehow I wonder, RanliLabz , is heterosexuality an option or mandatoy ? Well, whatever... You've a lot of gay content, whatever directly or not (like cum swapping by example). But all this is optional, the player decide if he want to see it or not.
And because of this, the fact that the MC is relatively effeminate don't seem to bother the players. Alright, he have a little something "gay", but he act like a totally straight alpha guy if it's what the player want, so there's no problems.

I never actually ask the player their sexuality - you make choices per character and kink as they come up. That means you can play as straight, m bicurious, m bisexual or gay (technically celibate, too!) and the game just adds your decisions to the psychometrics. One of the benefits of this is that straight players who fancy the occasional trap get the choice without being confronted with an 'are you gay?' question; and I know that most of my gay players try out the f/m content to get some more of the MC.

In answer to your question, f/m content isn't mandatory - you can turn down every female character in the game (same with males). However, all players will be seeing a lot of female and male nudity; and for storyline reasons the MC considers himself straight at the beginning (he's highly religious and... let's say... unquestioning ).

So, the questions of the day are;

• Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'
• Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?
• Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?

Many people will just not play a game with a gay tag - and one of my most frequent questions is whether it's avoidable. It will def reduce the number of people who even click on your game - one of the reasons I yearn to be included in the Featured Games bar (mods! I'm hinting at you here! I want footfall!) Make sure you make any m/m content avoidable, or a lot of players will be (justifiably!) angry .

But also make sure that you integrate it into a full m/m storyline - it won't work if it just feels 'tagged on' with no references in the f/m parts. Both routes should be able to work as stories in their own right

 

[Joshua Tree]

Many people will just not play a game with a gay tag - and one of my most frequent questions is whether it's avoidable. It will def reduce the number of people who even click on your game - one of the reasons I yearn to be included in the Featured Games bar (mods! I'm hinting at you here! I want footfall!) Make sure you make any m/m content avoidable, or a lot of players will be (justifiably!) angry .

But also make sure that you integrate it into a full m/m storyline - it won't work if it just feels 'tagged on' with no references in the f/m parts. Both routes should be able to work as stories in their own right

To play the devils advocate, I don't think its just enough to exclude content based on players choice.

Example, if the protag come across as... (not to sound condescending), let say "stereo typical gay". I don't think the player will connect. And I don't think gay/bi oriented players would connect if the protag didn't come across as being one either. As you said, it would just feel like a slapped on.

I think the best one can do is just pick a choice and go with it. Not try to cater for everyone, because that would mean an awful lot of extra work. Looking at games around, creators already have "obvious" hard time writing characters that come across even remotely believable as it is.

 

[Callowayaway]

Many people will just not play a game with a gay tag - and one of my most frequent questions is whether it's avoidable. It will def reduce the number of people who even click on your game - one of the reasons I yearn to be included in the Featured Games bar (mods! I'm hinting at you here! I want footfall!) Make sure you make any m/m content avoidable, or a lot of players will be (justifiably!) angry .

The problem is you're treating this like any other unpopular fetish, but it's not the same. Someone might get angry because you insert something like scat or netorare into a scene because otherwise they might like it, but two guys going at it is different. There's just very few people around here that find the male form appealing, to us you might as well be making a game about floor tiles. You can get a featured games bar, but if what you put there is noting but kitchen floors then no one's going to give it a second glance.

 

[RanliLabz]

The problem is you're treating this like any other unpopular fetish, but it's not the same. Someone might get angry because you insert something like scat or netorare into a scene because otherwise they might like it, but two guys going at it is different. There's just very few people around here that find the male form appealing, to us you might as well be making a game about floor tiles. You can get a featured games bar, but if what you put there is noting but kitchen floors then no one's going to give it a second glance.

Not sure your analogy works, since I'm not advocating a game with nothing but kitchen floor tiles, but one that offers 1) kitchen floor tiles; or 2) hardcore sex with a sexy girl. To straight players this might seem a Hobbesian choice - they're gonna take the girl rather than look at floor tiles! To players who are aroused by girls and floor tiles it might be a dilemma - they really wanna fuck that girl, but man... just look at the grouting on those tiles... jeez, I bet they don't even have a DP membrane underneath, the filthy little sluts that they are!

In retrospect, I'm not sure the floor tile analogy was especially useful at all.

 

[Joshua Tree]

Not sure your analogy works, since I'm not advocating a game with nothing but kitchen floor tiles, but one that offers 1) kitchen floor tiles; or 2) hardcore sex with a sexy girl. To straight players this might seem a Hobbesian choice - they're gonna take the girl rather than look at floor tiles! To players who are aroused by girls and floor tiles it might be a dilemma - they really wanna fuck that girl, but man... just look at the grouting on those tiles... jeez, I bet they don't even have a DP membrane underneath, the filthy little sluts that they are!

In retrospect, I'm not sure the floor tile analogy was especially useful at all.

With your game, you kinda know what you embark on right out the door. tbh, I play it more because of the lulz, more than anything. But if you take another game such as *insert any generic game*. And then throw male on male, gay sex at the player. You probably would find quite a lot get put off by it. If the gay content was "hidden" and by choice, players could still get putt off depending on how the protag was portrayed.

Example, quite a difference between like "Carson Kressley" from Queer Eye, and "Wentworth Miller" from Prison Break (whatever)...

 

[RanliLabz]

With your game, you kinda know what you embark on right out the door. tbh, I play it more because of the lulz, more than anything. But if you take another game such as *insert any generic game*. And then throw male on male, gay sex at the player. You probably would find quite a lot get put off by it. If the gay content was "hidden" and by choice, players could still get putt off depending on how the protag was portrayed.

Example, quite a difference between like "Carson Kressley" from Queer Eye, and "Wentworth Miller" from Prison Break (whatever)...

True - most players wouldn't play a camp MC (including a lot of gay and bi players). Where games do suddenly add in m/m content it usually seems off - generally a cash grab or ticking the diversity box. Best to build in the plotline from the start even if the content only comes later; and make it clear that m/m content will feature at some point, but that it's entirely optional.

Players are unhappy if they feel a game they've invested time in has suddenly veered too far off course (e.g. the eternal NTR conflict ). That's why I made it clear that I'd be including more optional trans content from the start - even though the current futa count is only 2 scenes.

 

[PandaLulz]

Not sure your analogy works, since I'm not advocating a game with nothing but kitchen floor tiles, but one that offers 1) kitchen floor tiles; or 2) hardcore sex with a sexy girl. To straight players this might seem a Hobbesian choice - they're gonna take the girl rather than look at floor tiles! To players who are aroused by girls and floor tiles it might be a dilemma - they really wanna fuck that girl, but man... just look at the grouting on those tiles... jeez, I bet they don't even have a DP membrane underneath, the filthy little sluts that they are!

In retrospect, I'm not sure the floor tile analogy was especially useful at all.

I mean, Amnesia game had a fair amount of sex on the floor - i'm sure it ticked someones box.


Thankful for the ongoing discussion within this thread though, it's leaving me with a lot of decisions to make and really not sure how i'll navigate it just yet. I first have to learn Ren'Py and try to get the systems I want in place (feel lost with it if i'm honest), but for now - the rendering is going smooth (already at 100+ renders) in about a week.

This said, I wouldn't have used "mainstream" for something related to the sexual orientation. It's not about fashion, but about personal preference, and it's something that will never change.

While I understand that perspective, and I do agree that it may not have been the wisest word to use, it wasn't meant in that way at all. Though I do understand that it may have come across that way. It's always a touchy subject, but it was a glancing statement about the perceived majority leaning of a community than anything else.

I fully understand i'm up against it if I did decide to include that sort of content later on, even if it isn't wholly massive.

 

[RanliLabz]

Thankful for the ongoing discussion within this thread though, it's leaving me with a lot of decisions to make and really not sure how i'll navigate it just yet. I first have to learn Ren'Py and try to get the systems I want in place (feel lost with it if i'm honest), but for now - the rendering is going smooth (already at 100+ renders) in about a week.

Wow - that's some render rate! To learn Renpy better, I recommend cracking a bunch of games to check out their code (mine's awful... but it's unarchived if you want to look at ways to manage content gating.) Good luck with the game!

 

[Snugglepuff]

Would you play a male protagonist if he shows tendencies of bisexuality. Yes, that means that at some stages throughout the game, the main character could also 'do' male characters as well as mostly leaning towards female interests, rarely (if ever) 'takes it'

I'd say a lot of people already do play male protagonists who come across optional Bi/Gay content.
The key word, as written in bold text above, is optional.
For much the same reason that Lesbian/Bi female content is more accepted than m/m, the majority of porn consumers are straight men. Most will be fine with a game containing m/m content as long as it's optional, as long as it's relatively clear that they're about to engage in said content before it happens.

For my own part, I play games with optional m/m content for the protagonist. Two examples being Warlock and Boobs and The Company, both of which have m/m content as based on player choice.

Would you want this sort of thing to be explicitly called out via the GUI or would you prefer it to come naturally?

If you want as wide an audience as possible, "clear signposting" (GUI) is your best choice.

Neither of the above games I mentioned have that kind of thing though, relying on a more natural indication of the impending content, so long as you actually read the information being presented.

Do you want a choice to block such contain (at the risk of really skewing character experience?)

It depends on how such a block would be implemented. Ideally it should be based on the MC's first encounter with such content (Warlock and Boobs has both a choice at the beginning of the game, and a toggle option in the options menu).

After playing a lot of VN's I have noticed that the "gay" themes are not really mainstream and often do not survive long, and that is usually the same for a male character that is bi, but lesbianism is most definitely fine (when done good).

That's because it's more "niche" than other "normal" content types, again because the majority of porn consumers are straight men.
There is an audience for gay MCs, it's just always going to be smaller than straight-male or Bi-female MC audiences.

This game I am making is not going to be on Patreon, and will only be released here at certain intervals.

As long as you're prepared for all the worst aspects of comments you'll receive for making such a game and posting it here (inordinate amount of lazy repetitive questions, with a side order of displeasure over m/m content and other potential "hostile" criticism & negativity), then I sincerely wish you the best of luck.

 

[Buddawg]

Hey, good luck on your game mate. Ill try to give some input.

Dont add the easy input of opting out or in, or prompting when something might happen. Have it an actual choice (several steps probably) of the story line.
Meaning: you wanna dude up and experience it, have an actual dialog where you choose wether or not to hit on the other person. Or deny/accept the person hitting on you. Via dialog choices, via YOUR actions. And voila, youve got what everyone wants, but never breaking the story by prompting or opting. Even better? If there are several options for this, have each being a choice, and you might be able to sneak in bisexual theme on a few that would otherwise have said no as well. (no, not to trick ppl gay, but to get the chance to experience your story).

I personally dont really like gay scenes, but i have played the scenes because it was great for the story line. But I have ALWAYS opted out (every single time) if i had that option. Because I dont like gay sex. But Im not playing ME. Im playing your character, so if it story wise fits in, ill play it like that (granted i will opt out if the guy is butch as fuck or crass, cause eww). But even playing your character, if you give me the option to be me, I will take it and act on it. Its a default setting. So dont.

If bisexuality is as you say an endgame, make two endings. Do a "fast" one, as its not the "great" ending for those that dont make the choices for the best storyline. And then do YOUR ending for those that wanna follow it. Its a great way in a game to do what you want, and still satisfy those that want to change your game into their wants.