About Fantasy Settings

Bright Sun Studios

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Let's talk about the settings of fantasy games on here for a while. As most writers (and readers alike) will probably know, fantasy is one of the most difficult genres to get right. That's because of the massive amount of little details required to make an entirely new world understandable and realistic to the reader. In my experience with fantay porn games on here, developers usually ignore most of the details. The worlds have almost no history to them and potential magic systems don't go further then 'Ah. I can make flames appear out of my hands. Great.'

This is somewhat understandable because most developers don't have the time to spend an entire year or more and creating their world. But it just feels like we end up with fantasy words that don't have any world building. For example, you live in a small village in a forest. That's it. No information about the rest of the world provided. No information about government, political conflict or whatever else.

So what do you guys think about this? Are fantasy games still worth it without the world building? Or would it be better to have porn stories set in already established worlds such as those of the Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Witcher or the Cosmere by Brandon Sanderson with new characters and new stories?
 

Oiz

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I don't think it needs you to create a complex and detailed world around your game. You don't need to explain everything (I'd even say going too much into detail would be counterproductive, as it shifts the focus from the actual story we're supposed to experience, to the world around it. One the problem I had with the LotR books actually), but what needs to be explained is the stuff around the place the game is set in.
Let's go with the "you live in a small village in the forest". How is the economy of said village structures, who are the people, what is the nearest bigger city and how far away is it. How does the society in the village function. What is frowned upon and what isn't. Basically what i'm trying to say is there's no need to bother with explaining stuff, that doesn't influence the story or which the player doesn't actually get confronted with. You don't need to set up a whole world, you just need to set up the stage the piece is played on.

I think the main problem is the same as with non-fantasy games though: The characters. 99% of the time it's just "You're the hero Bicdick McFuckemall, the biggest asshole in this world, whom somehow all the women want to fuck. Also meet generic Village-Girl your first conquest and cookiecutter Elf-Lady who has never seen a dick before." And that's it for the characters. What are there motivations? Their thoughts? Their experiences? What do they do and why do they do it? All that stuff remains unexplored most of the time. That's what makes most games boring to me. The characters are bland and have no actual personality.

An established setting definitely makes things easier. I'm wouldn't say it necessarily would be better, but it would be easier to make a better game. You just use the setting and personalities that have already been established, which takes one of the heaviest burdens off your shoulders.

Personally I'd prefer a good original fantasy game over one that uses an established setting, but it would require a lot more work and a lot more skill to pull that off.
 

Gomly1980

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I can't believe i'm actually going to type these words but .... a Sakura game has a decent fantasy setting.

Sakura Fantasy doesn't do a half bad job at world building. It doesn't go in depth but you get a good jist of what's going on, why and who's who. Alas, because Winged Cloud is a fuck nugget, he cancelled the sequel.

Long Live the Princess is doing a decent job. Granted it's held up by the characters more than the world but it still does an okay job of letting us know what's going on with the world and why.

Fate of Irnia is pretty decent at world building.

Roundscape Adorevia, Last Sovereign, Desolation of Wings, Fractured World and Daughter of Essence have pretty in depth worlds. Granted they are quite long games and have the time to build things up being RPG's but the writing and the story does a great job in all of those in creating believable worlds.

The problem you will always find with VN's is you need to give enough detail to build the world you want but keep it short enough to keep peoples attention.

While some of us will happily sit for hours and read a good story you will have those that lost interest if they don't see tits, pussy or dick every 5 minutes.

As Long Live the Princess has shown, a fantasy game can be good without complex world building if the characters are good enough. LLTP has Belle as one of the focal points who is a fantastic character. You know it's fantasy with the characters you meet and you have basic idea of the plot as it's drip fed.

Personally I think any story is worth telling. It doesn't take in depth detail to build a world, it takes a few memorable characters, a good plot and you can build the world around them as and when you need to. As long as people have a general idea of what kind of world it is they can do the rest as they follow the story.
 

NandabaCanti

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Most of the concerns brought up in the OP aren't really limited to just fantasy settings. Take a look at pretty much any game with a map and you will see how poorly thought out the worlds are in most games, regardless of setting. I've actually been dealing with this a bit myself for my game.

The last few days I spent a huge chunk of time coming up with a big list of all the various locations/buildings that would be required for a town to function properly along with the different types of zoning/districts that would be needed. Even spent time considering things like typical block sizes for both commercial and residential areas, lane and sidewalk widths, common dimensions for different types of buildings etc. Even though I don't plan on creating a detailed model of everything in town, I plan to create a low poly silhouette model of every necessary building and have them placed in a coherent layout if only for my own edification, heh.

Even though most will only be seen as filler on a map and as distant background details, I think it will add a lot of life and realism to the town. It also helped me come up with ideas of places I can add down the line for things like date locations and such and gives me a chance to drop down placeholders for them. One thing it quickly made me realize is how hard it is to have a self-contained "small town." If you insist on having everything in one location then it is impossible to keep the town small; it quickly starts to creep up into the city scale. XD
 

DrackDrap

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I do believe this is an issue that doesn't solely belong to fantasy games. Any type of genre and any game can have the same problem that was listed. Having a living, breathing world helps immerse the player into said world. Even if the player doesn't make the connections directly, it'll still help make the game feel that much more alive in the back of their heads.

Of course doing this, especially for eroge games is a big task, seeing as how there's not the largest playerbase in the world engaging with the games and that not everyone is really looking for some intricate world to engage with. At the core of it, I think that the most essential part is just having great characters. An alternative to that would be having a great world, but if that's not in the game and is not possible, then the characters really need to make up for that imbalance. Put in both, and it becomes an all the better experience for it.

At the very least, we should have a decent understanding of the world immediately surrounding the characters we play as and interact with through the course of the story.
 
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DarthSeduction

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First, in address to, everyone who's responded, I think Bright Sun Studios has a bit more merit to their argument than you're letting on. If you've played Blooming Love, BSS's game, then you know that they know how to craft a modern story that is completely character driven, and that doesn't do much to build the world beyond character conversations. For the most part it relies on it's two main characters to bring life to the world and it's story. The story isn't less compelling because we don't know what's going on around them, because it's simple to build that world for ourselves, as we all live in a modern world with the same rules and structures as theirs has.

Fantasy and Sci-Fi, though not brought up, have a need to explain more. As @Oiz pointed out, you don't have to build the entire kingdom, just the relevant parts, but you do have to define the relationship of this small village in the woods to it's neighbours and the world it interacts with. This is because we don't have that information, and it is going to be relevant to the plot. The artist InCase has an ongoing comic about a halfling girl named Alfie. In the beginning we are introduced to a new world and characters, the village they live in seems to be a halfling community, they are currently trading with a travelling band led by an extremely wealthy elf, and his human guardsman are part and parcel to the story. We know that Alfie dreams of adventure and that these humans are alien to her. We know a ton about the world, and we learn all that in the first idk, chapter? It would be about the length of a single game release... maybe two to get the information about the elf and that the guardsman Alfie speaks to is part of his caravan. These little details can be completely ignored in a modern story, because in a modern story we know how humans interact with their world.

That out of the way, I'd like to address some of your concerns Bright Sun Studios.

In my experience with fantay porn games on here, developers usually ignore most of the details. The worlds have almost no history to them and potential magic systems don't go further then 'Ah. I can make flames appear out of my hands. Great.'
I would generally have to agree. Most of the ones I've played tend to add fantasy willy nilly. They'll often attach a simple hand waving explanation as to why you're so weak now and what to do to become stronger, but that's about it. But then you've got a game like Coceter Chronicles which goes to great lengths to make a world that feels lived in. There are lore objects around the various maps that introduce you to a vibrant and important history. Your character's future is hinted at from the beginning with vague secrets and disobeyed laws. Laws? That's right, you know that the law has been broken because you were told there was a law to begin with. The game is constantly dumping information on you... even now, fleshing out more and more.

Long Live the Princess isn't as good at fleshing out it's world, but it's also working with a more secretive plot, it gives us more when we uncover it. As we do though the intrigue thickens and I wonder more and more about it. Another good example would be Kingdom of Deception, in which the dynamics of the world, the history of the war between humans and orcs, the politics of the orcs, the skills available to Sabia, all of it, are pretty well explained. But then there are others which instead of explaining where we are, try to just tell us a character driven story with no detail about the world or why it is the way it is or who is who and why. As I said in my opening arguments, you can do that in a contemporary setting. You can't do that in a world with different rules and settings.

So what do you guys think about this? Are fantasy games still worth it without the world building? Or would it be better to have porn stories set in already established worlds such as those of the Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, Witcher or the Cosmere by Brandon Sanderson with new characters and new stories?
If you want to borrow from a source to make your story I'd suggest D&D. While each of those you've listed have rich and engaging characters and worlds, they've all built on what came before, and what came before was LotR. The thing with D&D that makes me suggest building from it rather than building from LotR, is that LotR has a defined and bookended story. D&D which also borrowed from LotR, created a world that is meant for people to simply pick it up and create their own story.

What's best about it though, is it's also possible to create your own completely unique thing, simply using it as a building block. You can use it's magic systems and character classes on top of your own unique lore. You want a race of half demon creatures you can design them based on the Tieflings, you want a holy warrior? Look no further than the Paladin. You need inspiration to create a pantheon of gods? Hello we have several gods to look to. What you do is pick and choose the things you like, the aspects and behaviours, and add your own names and a unique spin on their relevance.

The best part is, you don't have to take it all, just he pieces you want or need to create the world. Dragon Age and The Witcher have absolutely done this. Bioware made Forgotten Realms games before making Dragon Age, and Forgotten Realms is just D&D's licensed story stuff. Elder Scrolls I'd say has taken more from D&D than others. Specifically because of their different races among elves, and the fact that Orcs are simply a race of beings, not a corrupted version of another species, like they are in LotR.

Then you've got Sanderson, and Sanderson is the outlier, he's the one who looked at what came before and said, I wanna try something different. Where Gandalf's magic was a deus ex machina when the plot needed it, his magic would define his character's actions and interactions with the world. Where morality stood squarely on the side of the fellowship, his villains are more grey. Where LotR used elves and dwarves, he decided to create his own races. If you wanna go the Sanderson route more power to you, but that means a lot more legwork on your part in introducing us to the world.
 
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NandabaCanti

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@DarthSeduction - One little correction; TES Orsimer are also a corrupted race. They started as a sect of the Aldmer that followed Trinimac who was devoured by Boethiah and then shit out as Malacath. The corruption of their god led to their own now corrupted existence as the "pariah folk."
 
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Bright Sun Studios

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First, in address to, everyone who's responded, I think Bright Sun Studios has a bit more merit to their argument than you're letting on. If you've played Blooming Love, BSS's game, then you know that they know how to craft a modern story that is completely character driven, and that doesn't do much to build the world beyond character conversations. For the most part it relies on it's two main characters to bring life to the world and it's story. The story isn't less compelling because we don't know what's going on around them, because it's simple to build that world for ourselves, as we all live in a modern world with the same rules and structures as theirs has.

Fantasy and Sci-Fi, though not brought up, have a need to explain more. As @Oiz pointed out, you don't have to build the entire kingdom, just the relevant parts, but you do have to define the relationship of this small village in the woods to it's neighbours and the world it interacts with. This is because we don't have that information, and it is going to be relevant to the plot. The artist InCase has an ongoing comic about a halfling girl named Alfie. In the beginning we are introduced to a new world and characters, the village they live in seems to be a halfling community, they are currently trading with a travelling band led by an extremely wealthy elf, and his human guardsman are part and parcel to the story. We know that Alfie dreams of adventure and that these humans are alien to her. We know a ton about the world, and we learn all that in the first idk, chapter? It would be about the length of a single game release... maybe two to get the information about the elf and that the guardsman Alfie speaks to is part of his caravan. These little details can be completely ignored in a modern story, because in a modern story we know how humans interact with their world.

That out of the way, I'd like to address some of your concerns Bright Sun Studios.



I would generally have to agree. Most of the ones I've played tend to add fantasy willy nilly. They'll often attach a simple hand waving explanation as to why you're so weak now and what to do to become stronger, but that's about it. But then you've got a game like Coceter Chronicles which goes to great lengths to make a world that feels lived in. There are lore objects around the various maps that introduce you to a vibrant and important history. Your character's future is hinted at from the beginning with vague secrets and disobeyed laws. Laws? That's right, you know that the law has been broken because you were told there was a law to begin with. The game is constantly dumping information on you... even now, fleshing out more and more.

Long Live the Princess isn't as good at fleshing out it's world, but it's also working with a more secretive plot, it gives us more when we uncover it. As we do though the intrigue thickens and I wonder more and more about it. Another good example would be Kingdom of Deception, in which the dynamics of the world, the history of the war between humans and orcs, the politics of the orcs, the skills available to Sabia, all of it, are pretty well explained. But then there are others which instead of explaining where we are, try to just tell us a character driven story with no detail about the world or why it is the way it is or who is who and why. As I said in my opening arguments, you can do that in a contemporary setting. You can't do that in a world with different rules and settings.



If you want to borrow from a source to make your story I'd suggest D&D. While each of those you've listed have rich and engaging characters and worlds, they've all built on what came before, and what came before was LotR. The thing with D&D that makes me suggest building from it rather than building from LotR, is that LotR has a defined and bookended story. D&D which also borrowed from LotR, created a world that is meant for people to simply pick it up and create their own story.

What's best about it though, is it's also possible to create your own completely unique thing, simply using it as a building block. You can use it's magic systems and character classes on top of your own unique lore. You want a race of half demon creatures you can design them based on the Tieflings, you want a holy warrior? Look no further than the Paladin. You need inspiration to create a pantheon of gods? Hello we have several gods to look to. What you do is pick and choose the things you like, the aspects and behaviours, and add your own names and a unique spin on their relevance.

The best part is, you don't have to take it all, just he pieces you want or need to create the world. Dragon Age and The Witcher have absolutely done this. Bioware made Forgotten Realms games before making Dragon Age, and Forgotten Realms is just D&D's licensed story stuff. Elder Scrolls I'd say has taken more from D&D than others. Specifically because of their different races among elves, and the fact that Orcs are simply a race of beings, not a corrupted version of another species, like they are in LotR.

Then you've got Sanderson, and Sanderson is the outlier, he's the one who looked at what came before and said, I wanna try something different. Where Gandalf's magic was a deus ex machina when the plot needed it, his magic would define his character's actions and interactions with the world. Where morality stood squarely on the side of the fellowship, his villains are more grey. Where LotR used elves and dwarves, he decided to create his own races. If you wanna go the Sanderson route more power to you, but that means a lot more legwork on your part in introducing us to the world.
You make some good points, but I'm not actually a big fan of D&D lore. Maybe it's because I just had a bad DM or something when I played it years ago, but it always felt empty to me. And we never really did anything with the lore that was there (which is also one of my bigger problems with the Elder Scrolls lore).

I actually have created a fantasy game (or at least a first version of it) and Sanderson's works had a huge influence on how I built my world, as some pepole familiar with him could tell. In my opinion he's one of the best worldbuilders there is and he created some of the most interesting fantasy worlds I know. I don't actually like LotR all that much because of the some of the reasons you mentioned (magic being a deux ex machina for example). Like I mentioned in the original post, if you have magic I feel like their needs to be something to it. Not just 'Oh. I can be a wizard. Cool.' The magic systems are what attracted me to Brandon Sandersons's worlds and I've missed that sort of thing in other books I've read/games I've played. Dragon Age probably comes closest to it because it actually does some very interesting things in the world with its magic (which is probably why Thedas as my favorite game world lore wise). I also love how Dragon Age: Orgins handles it's grey villains. I don't like black-white villains and hero's that much (another reason LotR didn't work for me). And DA:O has (in my opinion) one of the best grey-villains. I don't like him as person, but I can totally understand Loghain's actions and will even admit that he's trying to do what's best. Yes, he's the villain (if you exclude the Archdemon), but his actions are logical and not really evil. And that's why I like him so much.

I will also admit that a somewhat empty/unexplored/uninteresting world can still work if you have great characters. The Witcher comes to mind to me for an example like that. I didn't give a shit about the world itself because the lore just wasn't that interesting to me (which might also be why I didn't like reading the Witcher books that much), but I absolutely love the games because of their amazing characters. But in general when writing fantasy, the world sort of has to be a character as well. It's not necessary to explore much of it, but it does help. On the other hand, it's bad to have tons of lore and then not do anything with it in the game/story. I mentioned it before, but that's one of my problems with Elder Scrolls lore. If I have to read tons up tons of books to start giving a shit about the Stormcloak rebellion and Ulfric's history with the Empire, you know something is wrong. Especially since even if you do know all that stuff, it doesn't matter. Still very little is done with it beyond 'oh, this makes me thinking about if Ulfric has a point. Maybe I should side with him'. To be honest, I found the way Skyrim introduces the new aspects of it's lore (Thalmor, Stormcloaks, etc.) a complete disaster in how that information was told to the player, but maybe that's just my opinion.
 
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Ero

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I suppose it really all just boils down to relevancy. If the player is not going to be interacting with your setting, what is the point in fleshing it out? If you're focused solely on intimate relationships, you can have an entire game take place in one house and it can still be entertaining. If any portion of the gameplay requires you to explore the world, then those locations must be developed. This isn't limited to fantasy games, its literally applicable to all genres. Games can still be "worth it" without thorough world building, but the characters and events must be able to carry the story themselves.

How does the expression go? Wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle? Don't fall into that description. If you want to make a great game, make sure that everything the player interacts with is explained to a sufficient degree. We don't need to know that some fishing village on the coast of your kingdom was ransacked by a goblin horde unless your love interest's family was abducted in the attack or it means they're one step closer to killing you. Heck, even that scenario shows how world building and character development go hand in hand.

Sure, if you utilize an established setting you can bypass some work, but ultimately you put yourself in a box in terms of what is feasible and just how creative you can be (personally, this makes it seem like cheap fanfiction to me, but sometimes that is the point). Coming up with an original setting gives the dev a lot of freedom, but requires a lot of effort to get right. In the end, remember that most people are here for the sexual content. I love a well-written fantasy with deep characters and setting. That's why I mostly play 20+ hour VNs and stuff like Corruption of Champions. Some people just want porn, so they won't complain if the writing is poor, magic doesn't make sense, etc.

Overall, I'd say it sounds like you've come to this same conclusion already.
 

Bright Sun Studios

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I suppose it really all just boils down to relevancy. If the player is not going to be interacting with your setting, what is the point in fleshing it out? If you're focused solely on intimate relationships, you can have an entire game take place in one house and it can still be entertaining. If any portion of the gameplay requires you to explore the world, then those locations must be developed. This isn't limited to fantasy games, its literally applicable to all genres. Games can still be "worth it" without thorough world building, but the characters and events must be able to carry the story themselves.

How does the expression go? Wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle? Don't fall into that description. If you want to make a great game, make sure that everything the player interacts with is explained to a sufficient degree. We don't need to know that some fishing village on the coast of your kingdom was ransacked by a goblin horde unless your love interest's family was abducted in the attack or it means they're one step closer to killing you. Heck, even that scenario shows how world building and character development go hand in hand.

Sure, if you utilize an established setting you can bypass some work, but ultimately you put yourself in a box in terms of what is feasible and just how creative you can be (personally, this makes it seem like cheap fanfiction to me, but sometimes that is the point). Coming up with an original setting gives the dev a lot of freedom, but requires a lot of effort to get right. In the end, remember that most people are here for the sexual content. I love a well-written fantasy with deep characters and setting. That's why I mostly play 20+ hour VNs and stuff like Corruption of Champions. Some people just want porn, so they won't complain if the writing is poor, magic doesn't make sense, etc.

Overall, I'd say it sounds like you've come to this same conclusion already.
True, true. I suppose the best summary of this is issue (and the solution, perhaps) is thinking of it this way: If you want a porn game with fantasy elements, you don't need to go into too much detail about the world. Enjoy the fact that you can have Elvish/Faerie girls to have sex with. If on the other hand you want to create a fantasy game with sexual elements, I still think you need that world dept (at least a little of it). It all depends on which target audience you're going for: Fantasy fans (like myself) won't be easily satisfied with a world with little depth to it. If you are going for people who look character driven porn who might also like the visual appeal of elven ears and what not, than you don't need to focus on developing the world as much I think.

What I don't agree with (to a certain degree) is that every game faces this issue. It has been mentioned before, but if you have a game set in a high school for example, you only need to explain things about the school itself (and maybe not even that). People will be able to fill in all the details about the world themselves because they life in the same world: the real world. Fantasy worlds can't really do that. You expect things to be different there, otherwise it would just be an historical story and not a fantasy one.
 
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NandabaCanti

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I have a tendency to overdo things, mainly because I love the world building side of things. I actually have a fantasy world I've been developing here and there over the past 20 years or so. I've got enough material to fill about 2 dozen or so novels and they cover about 8 distinct eras of the world's history. In it magic waxes and wanes and even takes on different forms in relation to several factors ranging from the health of the environment to population density and the shared zeitgeist to technological advancements. I've even started to develop a new language and writing system mainly to use in naming characters, places and some other things, as well as to be used in artwork when the ancient text is necessary.

That last one is the main reason I haven't started to actually write out the stories beyond the planning phase so far. I want all the stories to have a wide variety of small details that tie them together in ways most would likely overlook, but that's the kinda stuff that excites me the most when it comes to fiction. I've got a huge Zim notebook were I collect all my notes in a wiki like format covering stuff like story layouts, scene descriptions, character bios, time lines, tidbits about the history, geography and ecology of key locations, etc. I tend to think that planning and research is where my strongest passions actually lie.

It's definitely not necessary to get anywhere near as crazy about this stuff as I often do. But it's always good to at least have some vague notions in the back of your mind regarding fairly coherent explanation for most things related to your story so you can factor them in, even when they may seem unnoticeable. It just generally adds a lot of consistency and believability to your setting and characters and their motivations. There's likely a sweet spot that falls somewhere between my obsessive level and the just wing it approach that many take. But that's down to each of us finding what best complements our way of thinking when working on fiction.
 

redknight00

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I disagree with the necessity of building a detailed wolrd for fantasy games, we all played the games, watched the movies, read the books, we know elves, dwarves and orcs, these are concepts we a familiar with even if not with the specifics of every setting. If a developer wants to make a fantasy game they don't need necessarily to build from scratch, in fact, it's likely these concepts will be used precisely in the way we know them, the orcs will be big, warmongers and horny and so on.

That said, there are options for expanding the world without info dumps and even going to places, for example Bioware games usually choose companions in a way that getting to know then also explain the lore, that's particularly true for characters like Sten, Tali, Wrex, Legion, etc.
 
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GuyFreely

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Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but I think this is more of a problem with fantasy games than erotic fantasy games. This comes down to the distinction of porn games vs. games with porn. Maybe we need better terms for these. The difference being the focus on gameplay or the focus on erotic content (and story).

As many have already said, you need as much lore as you need. Which I realize sounds dismissive, but it's contextual. Does the player need to know the nearby kingdom is at war with the giants? Well, is the player going to the nearby kingdom? Is the player going to meet any giants? If the information isn't relevant to the activities available in the game, they aren't required. Don't get me wrong, put as much lore as you want in your game. However, if it's not immediately relevant, you might want to make it optional. Coceter lore objects were mentioned. This is a good way to give optional details. The player has to say, I want to know what this object tells me about the world and interact with it.

At the same time, I know the complaint is largely about things that are thrown in and never explained. This can happen in two main ways. Many devs will rely on existing common knowledge. If I say "orc" you probably have an idea of what that means. You probably think greenish, strong humanoid, maybe some tusks, etc. I don't have to explain to you what an orc is for it to make sense. Now there may be people out there who don't know what an orc is, but I think most gamers will. The other way is if you are using custom lore or obscure lore, then you might need to explain it. If I say oh this npc is a fluviax (some nonsense I made up), the player might need something more to go on. Then you get into situations like does the player know what a dryad is? How about a sylph? These are rooted in prior fiction, but the player might not know them. The safest route is to explain everything even if the player is fully aware.

Similarly, I think you can have "magic" without going super deep on how it works. If you want to limit how much magic someone can use or have it not work in certain areas, you should explain those limitations up front. This can get into game mechanic versus story mechanic. If I want to have the player mortally wounded and saved by a lovely priestess, I don't HAVE to get into the minutia of healing magic. However, if I have a priestess healer as a member of an rpg party, the way healing works in the game need to be more clear.
 

Bright Sun Studios

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Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but I think this is more of a problem with fantasy games than erotic fantasy games. This comes down to the distinction of porn games vs. games with porn. Maybe we need better terms for these. The difference being the focus on gameplay or the focus on erotic content (and story).

As many have already said, you need as much lore as you need. Which I realize sounds dismissive, but it's contextual. Does the player need to know the nearby kingdom is at war with the giants? Well, is the player going to the nearby kingdom? Is the player going to meet any giants? If the information isn't relevant to the activities available in the game, they aren't required. Don't get me wrong, put as much lore as you want in your game. However, if it's not immediately relevant, you might want to make it optional. Coceter lore objects were mentioned. This is a good way to give optional details. The player has to say, I want to know what this object tells me about the world and interact with it.

At the same time, I know the complaint is largely about things that are thrown in and never explained. This can happen in two main ways. Many devs will rely on existing common knowledge. If I say "orc" you probably have an idea of what that means. You probably think greenish, strong humanoid, maybe some tusks, etc. I don't have to explain to you what an orc is for it to make sense. Now there may be people out there who don't know what an orc is, but I think most gamers will. The other way is if you are using custom lore or obscure lore, then you might need to explain it. If I say oh this npc is a fluviax (some nonsense I made up), the player might need something more to go on. Then you get into situations like does the player know what a dryad is? How about a sylph? These are rooted in prior fiction, but the player might not know them. The safest route is to explain everything even if the player is fully aware.

Similarly, I think you can have "magic" without going super deep on how it works. If you want to limit how much magic someone can use or have it not work in certain areas, you should explain those limitations up front. This can get into game mechanic versus story mechanic. If I want to have the player mortally wounded and saved by a lovely priestess, I don't HAVE to get into the minutia of healing magic. However, if I have a priestess healer as a member of an rpg party, the way healing works in the game need to be more clear.
I understand some of your points and I partly agree with them. Not every fantasy games needs a super detailed world. I will admit that if you go for a pure character drama, the world doesn't matter.

But I still feel like some (not all of them, I want to be very clear about that) miss some of the things that makes the fantasy genre so intersting to people. There is a reason (at least I think so) why fantasy tends to create such die-hard fans. Part of the fun of reading or playing fantasy is about discovery. Learning new information (maybe alongside the main character. Brandson Sanderson does this perfeclty in his works), maybe even learning new information that re-writes everything you thought you knew about the world (most fantasy stories I know and praise actually have such moments and they can create very fun theories and such). Of course you're totally right in that there is no point in adding lore that doesn't have anything to do with the situation of the main character in the world. And that might indeed be okay if you play as a simply farmer from a simple village. But that also ignores one of the major attractions of fantasy: escapism. It's not a coincidence that most fantasy main characters are heroes and saviors of the entire universe and what not. And those types of character do usually end up influencing the politics of the world (think Elder Scroll's civil war, the political quests in Witcher, choosing who rules what nation in Dragon Age), so in those cases it might be a good idea to also explore those other nations because the main character will be confronted by them. I don't know, maybe I've just gotten spoiled by the quality of world building the RPG games that I love to play and I miss some of that in the fantasy games here.

Also, please don't think that I started this threat to complain about other developers. Far from it. I'm just trying to see if people agree with me on this or not. If I ever continue developing the fantasy game I started myself, this will be valuable feedback. Focus on the world and the characters or only focus on the characters?

Please keep in mind that I haven't read all that many and maybe the few I read just weren't good ones. I will read Long Live the Princess (I think it's called that?) next and see what it's all about since it got mentioned a few times here.
 
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GuyFreely

Active Member
May 2, 2018
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@Bright Sun Studios I get what you are saying, but you named some huge games. Witcher and Elder Scrolls. Both are full blown rpgs with probably 30-40 hours of main story content and countless side activities. If you are spending huge chunks of time in the game world, then lore is a necessity. I personally put a bunch of erotic mods on Skyrim and had plenty of fun with it. Most erotic games, are quite a bit smaller in scope though. So yeah, it's a bit much to expect the same level from them. Again, Coceter Chronicles is probably the one trying the most to deliver something like you are describing.

I have yet to find a fully erotic game that I want to play for 40+ hours. Again, at that point it's probably a game with erotic elements, but still. (Yes, I'm aware that Witcher has boobies, but it's pretty tame.) If an erotic game had 40 hours or even 10 hours to convey a world, they could paint a more complete picture. If you have say a 3 hour experience and you spend an hour telling the player all about the world, they might check out. Not all players, mind you, but I'm speaking in generalities. So I think you are left to sprinkle it in when you can. Again, if it's story relevant, I agree it should absolutely be included.

I think it's somewhat comparable to the movie and porn industries. Few and far between are the mainstream movies that have hardcore sex in them. Similarly, few hardcore and even softcore porn movies have detailed worlds and strong plot. You can argue that this is market forces. The audiences dictate what they want. To be stereotypical for a moment, your average upstanding citizen might bawk at raunchy sex in the middle of their wholesome entertainment. At the same time, your horny frat boy porn watcher will want you to get to the fucking already. So I think we see the results of these market forces. The audience that wants well crafted thoughtful erotic content is probably in the minority.

Still, we are starting to get a slow integration of "adult" content into mainstream games, like the aforementioned Witcher. It's currently at about R-rated movie levels. For the time being, there seems to be a bit of a trade-off between top quality games and good erotic content. One can only hope AAA games get sexier or erotic games get better.
 

NandabaCanti

Active Member
Jan 4, 2018
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If your primary goal is just to make money then it would make sense to pay attention to the perceived trends in the market. But if you are into writing fiction and creating games because it's something you love, then I say screw worrying about what the market might want and make what you want. If you want a game that focuses purely on character interactions in an environment that just exists because they had to be somewhere, then that's fine. If you want a rich detailed world for the characters to explore and interact with, that's fine too. Hell even if you just want a straight up sex sim and the environment just comes down to an aesthetics choice for what to stick in the background, then go for it.

I personally enjoy variety in my games and fiction. I want the entertainment I take in to stand out, grab my attention and draw out strong emotional responses. The best way to achieve that is to be true to yourself and follow your passions and put your all into whatever you are doing. Make the game you want to play, because after all, you will likely be the person to play your game the most.
 

Ero

Newbie
Jul 9, 2017
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What I don't agree with (to a certain degree) is that every game faces this issue. It has been mentioned before, but if you have a game set in a high school for example, you only need to explain things about the school itself (and maybe not even that). People will be able to fill in all the details about the world themselves because they life in the same world: the real world. Fantasy worlds can't really do that. You expect things to be different there, otherwise it would just be an historical story and not a fantasy one.
I'd still say that its part of the same issue regarding relevancy, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum in comparison to fantasy. When you're creating a modern world you still need to explain the setting that your character interacts with, but less effort is required in order to make it believable. The issue you run into here is that since people are able to compare it to real life, there are more flaws that can be pointed out (if they exist). Both modern and fantasy settings have basic constructs that gamers are able to understand without much exposition. Think of it this way: walking to the water well in a small fantasy village is essentially the same thing as walking to a school's water fountain.

Fantasy fans (like myself) won't be easily satisfied with a world with little depth to it.
Suspension of disbelief comes at a cost. Sometimes I'm willing to forgive subpar writing if the artworks/renders are really high quality. Sometimes...
 

baneini

Engaged Member
Jun 28, 2017
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Tolkien was the one that created the fantasy world setting. Adults enjoy that world and devs copy it. Japanese fantasy games are VERY formulaic with very little original ideas.
Consistency, immersion and worldbuilding are usually forfeit in favor of setting up a porn scene so I don't see that mattering as much.
It's a great idea to use specific IP with known characters you rule 34, gives you creatively helpful restrictions but I think people almost never make their own worlds, they just copy others even if it's not a specific IP parody.
 

NandabaCanti

Active Member
Jan 4, 2018
677
754
Tolkien was the one that created the fantasy world setting.
This may be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. Fantasy is easily one of the oldest genres on the planet. People were telling fantastic tales around fires since before most cultures had written languages to record them. All mythologies are fantasies. One can argue religions are fantasies as well. If we are limiting it to just written works of fiction you can take a look at things like the Iliad and Odyssey, Beowulf, Grimms' Fair Tales, and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland as just a very small sampling of fantasy works that predate Tolkien by a fair margin. Not to mention Tolkien himself drew most of his own inspiration from european folk lore.