Leeduva
Member
- Mar 3, 2020
- 404
- 733
- 103
My bad. I'm deleting my comments. Because I always find an issue with. Especially if I'm going to repost it. I try not to delete them unnecessarily.
All NSFW games on Itch are now hidden by default.
- Thread starter Bob69
- Start date
♍VoidTraveler
Conversation Conqueror
- Apr 14, 2021
- 6,161
- 17,709
- 803
Yes lol rather likely.
There's very little in this for steam to risk all of their dough for... a couple of very badly put together indie projects?
Not happening.
- Jun 20, 2018
- 180
- 139
- 258
So basically all major platforms are fucked and we need an independent platform that will ONLY offer alternative payment methods to allow NSFW content? Thanks to the puritanist bureaucrats damn
♍VoidTraveler
Conversation Conqueror
- Apr 14, 2021
- 6,161
- 17,709
- 803
Well if this whole mess gains enough visibility perhaps some people will see this as an opportunity and then.. who knows what could happen. But for now voting for that American whatever-it's-called bill i heard about could be a neat little start..
Mc and visa could use some power-curb.
Yes an adult only, CCBill based platform since it has built in age verification. The puritans and feminists would probably leave you alone then, though they will still always lobby the government for more broad based censorship that could effect you in the long run. In addition to CCBill's lofty fees, the platform still would have server costs, moderator costs to make sure the games are not breaking hard written laws in their hosted country. Their fees would probably end up around 30%, that's before any taxes hit. Only the most passionate devs can withstand that.
My question as a dev is: I was always planning on producing a 'non-spicy' version of the game I'm working on. And developing a spicy and super-spicy DLC at the same time. The Spicy/Super-Spicy DLC would be free downloads. Would this still be allowed under the new rules? I was following the Kagura model for this to make it acceptable for mainstream platforms and put the fetishy stuff into the DLCs.
But from the looks of it I would have to split things up like:
Bland Game: Sanitized plot, no clothing destruction, Barbie doll meshes (just in case the player can get the clothes off somehow)
Spicy DLC: Clothing Destruction, out of combat vanilla sex scenes, some more sanitized plot, explicit character meshes, and maybe the some of the corruption aspects.
Super Spicy DLC: Combat Sex/Bondage, NC scenes, full plot and consequences.
I was hoping for explicit meshes in the 'bland' game, and maybe some of the things you see in BG3, but even that seems to be too much unless you're going to bring in millions and millions and then they'll let you get away with it.
Is the Kagura model for steam still viable?
But from the looks of it I would have to split things up like:
Bland Game: Sanitized plot, no clothing destruction, Barbie doll meshes (just in case the player can get the clothes off somehow)
Spicy DLC: Clothing Destruction, out of combat vanilla sex scenes, some more sanitized plot, explicit character meshes, and maybe the some of the corruption aspects.
Super Spicy DLC: Combat Sex/Bondage, NC scenes, full plot and consequences.
I was hoping for explicit meshes in the 'bland' game, and maybe some of the things you see in BG3, but even that seems to be too much unless you're going to bring in millions and millions and then they'll let you get away with it.
Is the Kagura model for steam still viable?
The problem isn't the payment services the problem is the laws that allowed this to happen in the first place.
Companies in the US have to work under US laws porn sites and many other websites started getting hit after Fosta Sesta was adopted by US congress in 2018.
Look at the time when Pornhub removed 80% of it's content when.
Ever since this laws became effective censorship has drastically increased and you can see it everywhere just think of what was allowed on major platforms five years ago and what's allowed now.
Companies in the US have to work under US laws porn sites and many other websites started getting hit after Fosta Sesta was adopted by US congress in 2018.
Look at the time when Pornhub removed 80% of it's content when.
Ever since this laws became effective censorship has drastically increased and you can see it everywhere just think of what was allowed on major platforms five years ago and what's allowed now.
Leeduva
Member
- Mar 3, 2020
- 404
- 733
- 103
Hear me out this is going to sound crazy it seems like the best people to take on the Payment processers like Visa and MasterCard.Yes lol rather likely.
There's very little in this for steam to risk all of their dough for... a couple of very badly put together indie projects?
Not happening.
Might be Epic Game studio.
I know it sounds crazy. But remember Epic went after Google and Apple.
Accusing both platforms of being a duopoly. in their respective App store. And how it force users to pay 30% over all in app purchases.
If your not familiar here a breakdown by ChatGPT.
"
Epic Games sued both Apple and Google over what it claimed were monopolistic practices in their respective app stores—mainly related to in-app purchase restrictions, payment processor control, and app distribution monopolies. Here’s a breakdown of why they sued, what happened, and the outcomes for each case:
---
WHY DID EPIC GAMES SUE APPLE & GOOGLE?
1. In-App Payment Restrictions
Both Apple and Google required all in-app purchases to go through their own payment systems, where they took a 30% commission.
Epic added a direct payment method in Fortnite to bypass those fees.
Apple and Google removed Fortnite from their stores in response.
Epic sued immediately after, claiming monopolistic abuse of power.
2. Monopoly Allegations
Epic argued Apple and Google had a duopoly on mobile platforms:
Apple: Complete control over iOS apps.
Google: Allegedly hindered third-party app stores despite Android being "open."
3. App Store Control
Apple does not allow third-party app stores or sideloading.
Google does technically allow sideloading, but Epic claimed Google pressured OEMs and partners not to allow other stores (like Epic's own).
---
⚖ OUTCOME OF EPIC VS. APPLE
Trial: 2021 (California)
Epic lost most of its claims in the 2021 ruling.
The judge ruled that:
Apple is not a monopoly under antitrust law.
Epic breached its contract by trying to bypass Apple’s payment system.
Apple had some anti-competitive practices, particularly in blocking alternative payment methods.
✅ What Epic Won:
The judge issued a permanent injunction forcing Apple to allow developers to link to outside payment options in their apps.
Apple can no longer ban buttons or links to outside purchases, but can still charge commission in some cases.
❌ What Epic Lost:
No requirement for Apple to allow alternative app stores.
No ruling that Apple must allow full sideloading or competing app marketplaces.
Epic had to pay damages to Apple (30% of the money Fortnite earned via direct payments before removal).
Appeals:
Both sides appealed the ruling.
In 2023, the appeals court largely upheld the original decision.
The U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear further appeals in 2024.
Final result: Apple keeps control of the App Store, but must allow external payment links.
---
⚖ OUTCOME OF EPIC VS. GOOGLE
Trial: Late 2023 – California Jury Trial
Unlike the Apple case, Epic won against Google.
✅ What Epic Won:
The jury found that Google:
Maintained an illegal monopoly over app distribution and in-app billing on Android.
Engaged in anti-competitive conduct, including deals to suppress competition.
Was guilty of entering into side deals with major developers (like Netflix) to keep them in the Play Store.
❌ What Google Lost:
The court ruled that the Play Store practices violated U.S. antitrust law.
In 2024, the judge issued an order forcing Google to:
Allow alternative app stores and third-party billing.
Loosen restrictions on sideloading and pre-installed competing stores.
Google may still collect service fees, but can't mandate Play Billing as the only option.
Appeals:
Google is currently appealing the decision.
As of 2025, the remedy is being implemented, but some portions are on hold pending appeal.
---
BOTTOM LINE
Company Sued Final Verdict Epic's Gain Epic's Loss
Apple ❌ Mostly Lost Allowed to link to outside payments No third-party stores or sideloading
Google ✅ Major Win Play Store must allow alternative billing & stores Still awaiting appeal outcome"
I then ask ChatGPT how can Epic case be use as an example against Visa/MasterCard.
And this is what it said.
"
Epic’s lawsuits against Apple and Google, while not directly aimed at Visa or MasterCard, set critical legal and strategic precedents that can be used to challenge the dominance of Visa and MasterCard in payment processing, particularly for controversial or restricted industries like adult content, indie games, crypto, or politically sensitive media.
Here’s a breakdown of how Epic’s cases can be used as a foundation to push back against Visa and MasterCard’s control:
---
⚖ 1. Legal Frameworks from Epic v. Apple/Google
Antitrust & Monopoly Claims
Epic argued that Apple and Google used their control over distribution (App Store / Play Store) and payments (IAP systems) to suppress competition.
This can mirror how Visa and MasterCard:
Dominate digital payments.
Control which content or industries are "allowed" to process payments.
Penalize or deplatform businesses that go against their “moral” or “reputational” guidelines.
Potential Strategy: Argue that Visa/MasterCard's behavior constitutes:
Abuse of market dominance.
Unfair restraint on trade.
Collusion with banks to suppress legal industries.
---
2. Forced Payment Channels = Anti-Competitive Behavior
Apple/Google:
Forced developers to use only their billing systems.
Took high cuts (30%) and blocked alternative payment methods.
Visa/MasterCard:
Act as gatekeepers for nearly all mainstream online payments.
Pressure banks and platforms to block services like adult content, crypto, or alternative processors.
Have penalized companies (e.g., Pornhub, adult Patreon creators) without court order, based only on internal policy.
Parallel Argument:
Just like Apple/Google forced developers into closed ecosystems, Visa/MasterCard force platforms into centralized, moralized, non-neutral financial pipelines.
Their ability to act as moral police over legal content could be challenged as anti-competitive behavior, especially if they work together or with banks to blacklist entire industries.
---
3. Market Power & Lack of Alternatives
Apple:
No sideloading = total control over app distribution.
Visa/MasterCard:
Together they represent over 90% of credit/debit payment rails globally.
Blockades from both make it nearly impossible to sell online to general audiences.
Argument Strategy:
Prove that no practical alternative exists when Visa & MasterCard deny access.
Show how their denial affects legal businesses in protected speech areas (art, sexuality, controversial media).
Push for regulation similar to net neutrality: financial services should be content-neutral.
---
⚔ 4. Epic’s Fight Highlights the Role of Direct Payment Access
Epic was forced to create its own store and use direct payment systems to avoid Apple/Google.
Visa/MasterCard block that same kind of independence in industries they dislike by threatening banks or flagging accounts.
Implication:
Direct payment access should be a protected right for legal businesses.
Financial gatekeeping becomes de facto censorship, just like Apple/Google's app restrictions were alleged to be.
---
5. Legal and Legislative Reform Pathways
Epic’s lawsuits made headlines and pushed courts and lawmakers to:
Re-examine platform control.
Propose Digital Market Acts in Europe and Open App Markets Acts in the U.S.
The same public pressure and legal reasoning could be used to demand:
Financial market neutrality.
Legal requirement for Visa/MasterCard to serve all legal businesses, or allow real competition.
Enable new fintech to rise without being blocked or de-banked by these two giants.
---
Summary Table
Issue Epic vs Apple/Google Potential Epic vs Visa/MasterCard Parallel
Platform monopoly App Store/Play Store control all access Visa/MasterCard dominate all card payments
Payment restriction Forced use of in-app billing Forced use of "approved" processors only
Alternative blockades No sideloading or stores Blocking adult or controversial industries across banks
Legal workaround Epic tried direct payment Adult devs try crypto or alt processors, often de-banked
Regulatory need Pushed Open App Markets Act Could push for Financial Neutrality Acts
---
Final Note
If a company, dev, or platform wanted to take on Visa/MasterCard, the Epic legal model is a blueprint:
Frame the issue as an antitrust and market access problem.
Gather evidence of collusion or industry suppression.
Show how it limits free enterprise and protected speech.
Use Epic’s wins and partial wins to build precedent.
Would you like a mock outline of what a lawsuit or campaign might look like against Visa/MasterCard from an adult game platform perspective?"
Leeduva
Member
- Mar 3, 2020
- 404
- 733
- 103
Mock outline by chatgpt for a potential lawsuit. Consult with a human lawyer to see the merits and flaws of this outline.
"
Here is a mock legal and advocacy outline for a lawsuit or strategic campaign against Visa/MasterCard, based on the Epic v. Apple/Google playbook. It’s tailored specifically for an adult game developer/platform that is blocked or restricted by mainstream processors:
MOCK OUTLINE — LAWSUIT OR STRATEGIC CAMPAIGN AGAINST VISA/MASTERCARD
For Adult Game Developers / Platforms Facing Financial Censorship
I. OBJECTIVE
To challenge the financial gatekeeping, de-banking, and industry-wide payment restrictions imposed by Visa and MasterCard against legal adult game developers or adult content platforms. The goal is to:
II. LEGAL FOUNDATION
A. Antitrust & Competition Law
III. TARGET DEFENDANTS & PARTIES
IV. EVIDENCE TO GATHER
V. PUBLIC STRATEGY + ADVOCACY CAMPAIGN
1. Public Framing
VI. LEGAL REMEDIES TO DEMAND
VII. TRADEOFFS & RISKS
VIII. ALTERNATIVE STRATEGIES (PARALLEL)
"
Here is a mock legal and advocacy outline for a lawsuit or strategic campaign against Visa/MasterCard, based on the Epic v. Apple/Google playbook. It’s tailored specifically for an adult game developer/platform that is blocked or restricted by mainstream processors:
MOCK OUTLINE — LAWSUIT OR STRATEGIC CAMPAIGN AGAINST VISA/MASTERCARD
For Adult Game Developers / Platforms Facing Financial Censorship
I. OBJECTIVE
To challenge the financial gatekeeping, de-banking, and industry-wide payment restrictions imposed by Visa and MasterCard against legal adult game developers or adult content platforms. The goal is to:
- Break their monopoly power over online payments.
- Prevent financial discrimination against adult creators.
- Force open access to payment rails or encourage regulatory reform.
- Allow creators to use independent processors or alternative rails without penalty.
II. LEGAL FOUNDATION
A. Antitrust & Competition Law
- Claim: Visa/MasterCard have a duopoly in card-based digital transactions and abuse this power to suppress entire industries, particularly adult or controversial content.
- Legal Angle: Use Sherman Act and Clayton Act (U.S.) or EU Competition Law(Article 102 TFEU) to argue:
- Abuse of dominant market position.
- Collusion with banks and payment gateways to blacklist lawful businesses.
- Restriction of free market alternatives (e.g., banning third-party processors).
- Financial discrimination against entire sectors without legal cause or due process.
- Internal “morality” guidelines treated as extra-legal censorship.
- Precedent: Use arguments from Epic v. Apple — i.e., private policy cannot override market access for lawful commerce.
- Adult art, erotic games, and adult storytelling = protected by the First Amendment.
- Visa/MasterCard acting as extra-governmental censors by denying financial access.
- Previous ACLU & EFF-backed efforts have argued financial infrastructure must remain content-neutral.
III. TARGET DEFENDANTS & PARTIES
- Visa Inc. and MasterCard International Inc.
- Possibly banking partners or PSPs (e.g., PayPal, Stripe, Square) who enforced bans on their behalf.
- Potential inclusion of industry trade groups that coordinate policy suppression.
IV. EVIDENCE TO GATHER
| Evidence Type | Examples |
|---|---|
| Industry-wide restrictions | Bank account closures, processor bans, rejected MCCs |
| Internal policy docs | Terms from Visa/MasterCard on “brand risk” |
| Collusion or copycat policies | Emails or shared documentation from processors/banks |
| Selective enforcement | Adult games banned while violent or extreme games allowed |
| Developer financial harm | Lost revenue, blocked transactions, removed payment links |
V. PUBLIC STRATEGY + ADVOCACY CAMPAIGN
1. Public Framing
- "Financial Censorship is the New Book Burning."
- “Visa and MasterCard Are Silencing Legal Creators.”
- “Why Can I Buy Gore, Murder, and War — But Not Romance or Erotica?”
- EFF, Fight for the Future, Free Speech Coalition, ACLU, digital rights activists.
- Creators from OnlyFans, NSFW games, indie adult comics, or VR erotica.
- Pro-crypto groups pushing financial independence from card networks.
- Highlight case studies: “This developer lost 80% of income after Visa flagged their processor.”
- Show chilling effects on small creators and indie developers.
VI. LEGAL REMEDIES TO DEMAND
- Court Injunction forcing Visa/MasterCard to cease selective restrictions against adult creators.
- Damages for lost income and business interference.
- Regulatory Oversight mandating content neutrality in payment processing.
- New rules allowing third-party processors to handle “high-risk” without blacklist enforcement.
VII. TRADEOFFS & RISKS
| Pros | Cons/Risks |
|---|---|
| May expose collusion & force regulatory changes | Long litigation timeline (2–5 years) |
| Could win direct access to Visa/MasterCard | High legal fees; requires funding |
| Creates precedent for all censored industries | Possible PR backlash depending on framing |
| Gathers wide support across crypto, gaming, adult | Potential retaliation by platforms during fight |
VIII. ALTERNATIVE STRATEGIES (PARALLEL)
- Create or support decentralized payment rails (e.g., Lightning Network, stablecoin options).
- Develop adult-friendly PSPs backed by independent banks or crypto.
- Use DAO-style governance to fund a creator-backed lawsuit.
- Push for new legislation, similar to:
- Open App Markets Act → “Open Payment Networks Act”
- Net Neutrality → “Financial Neutrality""
liade
Member
- May 2, 2023
- 131
- 166
- 87
yup i do all these research when when all this shit started ! We think already about multiple option including simple with more fee and more complexe with less fee. people will see transparent details about fee and will be able to choose what they want. my goal is to share a transparent alternative, if people want to use crypto for a 1% fee or their credit card for a 15% fee they have to choose.
liade
Member
- May 2, 2023
- 131
- 166
- 87
if you want to see more about this discussion with people i have about what i will do you can see more here :
https://f95zone.to/threads/alternat...ing-one-lets-discuss-it.263599/#post-17644173
Fosta sesta doesn't apply to eroge, it only applies to crime. Example human trafficking. Fosta sesta also doesn't change the law, it clarifies existing law. Sex trafficking is already illegal. There were some companies in California involved in sex trafficking and using section 230 as their defense. Section 230 has never protected against criminal offenses.
The reason Pornhub had to remove 80% of its content was because a lot of video publishers were traced to using people against their will to make videos. Example of that major sting operation in Korea back in 2017 (I think).
The issue we have here is devs are not breaking the law. They are engaging in legal commerce.
If you can figure out how to do a crypto subscription service, I think that would almost entirely solve the problem. From what I can tell, most devs that are successful are reliant on subscribe star and patreon than one time payments.
I'm not even sure if that's possible though, because no payment can occur without someone's seed, which is the whole basis of what make crypto currency secure.
liade
Member
- May 2, 2023
- 131
- 166
- 87
i expect more a selling platform than a subscribtion platform
- Jul 24, 2025
- 90
- 170
- 43
Also push to END KYC. We are having all this trouble due to KYC.
ippotimmo
Newbie
- May 21, 2022
- 46
- 70
- 94
You must be registered to see the links
You must be registered to see the links