Animations usually make the game worse

[desmosome]

A bit of a click bait title but let's get into it.

Let's consider first what the opportunity cost is. I'm no developer, but I believe a single 2-3 second loop could be something like 100+ frames that need rendering. If we consider most game updates rarely push past 500 renders, that is like 1/5 of the rendering time for one single animation. It's fine for someone like DPC who has a dedicated rendering machine or two, but most devs don't have this luxury.

Secondly, it's exceedingly rare (even among top devs) to have animations that run while the dialogue is happening. Why the fuck is this the case? I don't know but it's like they want to throw away all the time spent on rendering that animation by having no dialogue. Seriously, does anyone get to an animation and just pause it there to jack off to a 2 second loop? Is that hot? No, not to me. That can't compare to any real porn video or even SFM stuff. What sets these games apart is in the dialogue and set up. If you don't add any dialogue during animations, I am just clicking through it immediately. Often, I don't even watch one loop finish.

A related issue is that the devs very often get into the mindset that the animations will carry a scene through. I'm sure you guys have seen those 5 second sex scenes. "Ohh fuck me!" Click. Run janky animation from one uninspired angle. Click. "Ohhh I'm cumming." Click. "That was great!"

If we take all these into consideration, I honestly think animations actively detract from the quality of a scene except in very rare cases. Using a wide range of still pictures from different positions and angles along with kinky dialogue will produce a much sexier scene than almost all the stuff that the average devs will put out with some mediocre animation.

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

What sets these games apart is in the dialogue and set up. If you don't add any dialogue during animations, I am just clicking through it immediately.

I agree mostly for that reason. A lot of devs are kind of bad at writing sex scenes to begin with, but I take mediocre writing over no writing and an animation instead. Also, a lot of animations just look derpy and terrible, so making me stare at it without comment isn't really that interesting.

Basically animations are only good if a) you're actually good at making them b) they don't take up too much dev time and c) you also write good sex scenes that go along with them. Those factors very rarely come together, so in most cases, I prefer a decent amount of renders for the scene and hot writing.

 

[NukaCola]

Agreed. Most of the animation I see in Renpy game is just a few second loop look like it running at 10 frame per second. The pose, movement is awkward and the physics is bad. It can't even be use as fap material. There is some exception case the game actually does have decent animation but that is very few and far between.

 

[Domiek]

Seriously, does anyone get to an animation and just pause it there to jack off to a 2 second loop? Is that hot? No, not to me. That can't compare to any real porn video or even SFM stuff. What sets these games apart is in the dialogue and set up. If you don't add any dialogue during animations, I am just clicking through it immediately. Often, I don't even watch one loop finish.

Sure, these animations don't compare to a real porn video. Just like the dialogue in these games don't compare to actual professional adult books. The "gameplay" doesn't compare to most games on steam and the renders are usually far worse than most other 3D CG. Should we just stop playing adult games then? Look up some of the top F95 games from 3 years ago and compare them to today. The reason everything is improving is because the devs are learning and improving. This niche is still very young.

Basically animations are only good if a) you're actually good at making them b) they don't take up too much dev time and c) you also write good sex scenes that go along with them. Those factors very rarely come together, so in most cases, I prefer a decent amount of renders for the scene and hot writing.

The problem is that no one will ever be good at making animations without first making them. 3 years ago we had janky transitions between 2 still-renders and called them "animations". Now devs are slowly improving with more experience. Hell, as I was editing content today I noticed my first Blender animation from back in January, it was absolutely hot garbage. Then I started looking at the newer ones I made I made throughout the year and by the time I got to the most recent one I was thinking "Damn, this is actually pretty good"!

Animations on F95 have been slowly improving as more devs become established and dedicate more time to learning them. I expect within the next 1-2 years most people here will be expecting decent animations as a bare minimum for these games. Much like how 3 years ago games were considered good with noisy/grainy renders with terrible lighting and skin poking out through clothes. Now it's an expected bare minimum to not have these issues.

 

[desmosome]

Sure, these animations don't compare to a real porn video. Just like the dialogue in these games don't compare to actual professional adult books. The "gameplay" doesn't compare to most games on steam and the renders are usually far worse than most other 3D CG. Should we just stop playing adult games then? Look up some of the top F95 games from 3 years ago and compare them to today. The reason everything is improving is because the devs are learning and improving. This niche is still very young.



The problem is that no one will ever be good at making animations without first making them. 3 years ago we had janky transitions between 2 still-renders and called them "animations". Now devs are slowly improving with more experience. Hell, as I was editing content today I noticed my first Blender animation from back in January, it was absolutely hot garbage. Then I started looking at the newer ones I made I made throughout the year and by the time I got to the most recent one I was thinking "Damn, this is actually pretty good"!

Animations on F95 have been slowly improving as more devs become established and dedicate more time to learning them. I expect within the next 1-2 years most people here will be expecting decent animations as a bare minimum for these games. Much like how 3 years ago games were considered good with noisy/grainy renders with terrible lighting and skin poking out through clothes. Now it's an expected bare minimum to not have these issues.

You didn't address any of my points. That the animations don't compare to porn or SFM is like the least pertinent part of my OP.

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

Animations on F95 have been slowly improving as more devs become established and dedicate more time to learning them. I expect within the next 1-2 years most people here will be expecting decent animations as a bare minimum for these games. Much like how 3 years ago games were considered good with noisy/grainy renders with terrible lighting and skin poking out through clothes. Now it's an expected bare minimum to not have these issues.

But this thread is about what is good right now and what we enjoy, not what we should put up with to expect something better in the future. Also, the animations aren't so much the issue as the often accompanying degradation in writing. At the end of the day, it's a question about what you play these games for. I'll always choose a game with dogshit, grainy renders that has good writing over a game with mindblowing renders and lifelike expressions, but terrible writing.

Your animations can look like they come straight out of a Pixar movie, if your writing is shit I don't care.

On a deeper note, I feel like animations themselves limit the writing possibilities of a scene. I feel with static renders there is a certain amount of freedom to describe things via text that are not explicitly shown on screen. When there's an animation playing that's literally showing you the second to second actions that are happening things like that can feel more out of place. It kind of breaks the whole "visual novel" aspect when you suddenly turn the game into a movie.

 

[desmosome]

On a deeper note, I feel like animations themselves limit the writing possibilities of a scene. I feel with static renders there is a certain amount of freedom to describe things via text that are not explicitly shown on screen. When there's an animation playing that's literally showing you the second to second actions that are happening things like that can feel more out of place. It kind of breaks the whole "visual novel" aspect when you suddenly turn the game into a movie.

Another way it limits scenes is in the fluidity of the scenes. What is a more action packed and dynamic scene? A 2 second loop, or ~20 renders depicting the same position as that loop? Ironic as it sounds, animations are more static than an equal (or even way less) number of renders depicting the same scenes.

The ideal scenes would obviously have all the still picture variations, lengthy scene with various positions, and sex dialogues alongside animations at certain key parts (with some text while the animation is running), but how often do we get the whole package? It does exist, although I can't name any examples off the top. More often than not, for indie devs, the render times for animations could be used much more effectively elsewhere.

Basically, I view animations as a cherry on top of an otherwise well constructed scene. I NEVER feel like a lack of animation was the cause of an underwhelming scene. I very often feel like the dev put all their eggs in the animation basket and neglected all other things that goes into constructing a sex scene.

 

[Domiek]

You didn't address any of my points. That the animations don't compare to porn or SFM is like the least pertinent part of my OP.

You don't really have any points, you're just ranting about poor dialogue/story and somehow blaming it on animations. Which by the way, it's totally fine to have the opinion that games are lacking good dialogue/setup. However, animations have nothing to do with this.

But this thread is about what is good right now and what we enjoy, not what we should put up with to expect something better in the future.

It's not about what's good though, it's about animations making the game worse.

Also, the animations aren't so much the issue as the often accompanying degradation in writing. At the end of the day, it's a question about what you play these games for. I'll always choose a game with dogshit, grainy renders that has good writing over a game with mindblowing renders and lifelike expressions, but terrible writing.

Your animations can look like they come straight out of a Pixar movie, if your writing is shit I don't care.

On a deeper note, I feel like animations themselves limit the writing possibilities of a scene. I feel with static renders there is a certain amount of freedom to describe things via text that are not explicitly shown on screen. When there's an animation playing that's literally showing you the second to second actions that are happening things like that can feel more out of place. It kind of breaks the whole "visual novel" aspect when you suddenly turn the game into a movie.

Animations don't limit writing possibilities of a scene, that doesn't make any sense. Animations are a visual tool, nothing more. If used properly, it adds to the scene in the form of "show don't tell".

• I can show you a render of a babe falling flat on her face with her skirt flying up around her waist, exposing her ass. I can then write MC's inner thoughts "(Wow, she has a really nice ass. I want to go talk to her!)"

• I can show you 5 renders of a babe falling flat on her face and her skirt flying up, exposing her ass. These renders will have different angles, eventually zoom in on her ass and then have MC do some inner dialogue of "(Wow, she has a really nice ass. I want to go talk to her!)"

• I can show you an animation of a babe falling, from the perspective of MC. The camera focus will quickly pan and zoom in on the girls bare ass as she hits the ground. I won't need to write MC's inner dialogue to portray that he doesn't care about this girl being hurt, he was really only paying attention to her ass and his only motivation is to get some. I then do a still render right after this animation of the MC kneeling next to the girl saying "Oh my God, are you hurt? Let me help you up!"

The animation does not take away from this scene but actually improves its readability. If you think that animations are being used to cover up weak writing, that's totally fair. However, that's an issue of the dev being unable to write rather than the animation itself somehow lobotomizing them.

The actual quality of animations or lack of, well this can't really be helped. They will only improve as devs improve. The quality of writing is kind of the same thing. Devs who are in it for the long haul may start taking classes or other resources to improve their writing. Animations by themselves really have nothing to do with poor writing in the first place though.

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

Animations don't limit writing possibilities of a scene, that doesn't make any sense. Animations are a visual tool, nothing more. If used properly, it adds to the scene in the form of "show don't tell".

I literally just described how they can do just that, but I get it, you don't want to hear it because you're emotionally invested in your opinion that animations are the greatest shit ever, presumably because you spent time learning to do them.

 

[desmosome]

You don't really have any points, you're just ranting about poor dialogue/story and somehow blaming it on animations. Which by the way, it's totally fine to have the opinion that games are lacking good dialogue/setup. However, animations have nothing to do with this.




View attachment 827722

It's not about what's good though, it's about animations making the game worse.



Animations don't limit writing possibilities of a scene, that doesn't make any sense. Animations are a visual tool, nothing more. If used properly, it adds to the scene in the form of "show don't tell".

• I can show you a render of a babe falling flat on her face with her skirt flying up around her waist, exposing her ass. I can then write MC's inner thoughts "(Wow, she has a really nice ass. I want to go talk to her!)"

• I can show you 5 renders of a babe falling flat on her face and her skirt flying up, exposing her ass. These renders will have different angles, eventually zoom in on her ass and then have MC do some inner dialogue of "(Wow, she has a really nice ass. I want to go talk to her!)"

• I can show you an animation of a babe falling, from the perspective of MC. The camera focus will quickly pan and zoom in on the girls bare ass as she hits the ground. I won't need to write MC's inner dialogue to portray that he doesn't care about this girl being hurt, he was really only paying attention to her ass and his only motivation is to get some. I then do a still render right after this animation of the MC kneeling next to the girl saying "Oh my God, are you hurt? Let me help you up!"

The animation does not take away from this scene but actually improves its readability. If you think that animations are being used to cover up weak writing, that's totally fair. However, that's an issue of the dev being unable to write rather than the animation itself somehow lobotomizing them.

The actual quality of animations or lack of, well this can't really be helped. They will only improve as devs improve. The quality of writing is kind of the same thing. Devs who are in it for the long haul may start taking classes or other resources to improve their writing. Animations by themselves really have nothing to do with poor writing in the first place though.

I guess I should make the distinction that I am talking about sex animations. I like non-sex animations very much as those are usually always done to show dynamic motion that goes beyond still frames. They also are not 2 second loops that we are expected to watch for however long the dev thinks is appropriate to make the scene work.

Edit: I can see the retort already. Sex animations are also dynamic motion that goes beyond still frames, one might say. There is a difference in it's usage in the vast majority of cases though. Non-sex animations are almost universally the "cherry on top" to depict a sexy girl walking by, climactic fight scene, or a panning of the environment to improve atmosphere. Sex animations, on the other hand, are very often the linchpin that the devs focus on to carry the scenes. And there is always the opportunity cost to adding animations of any kind. That is undeniable.

Of course, we can argue all day that having a fully animated game could be better under optimal circumstances, but what's the point of that? I am talking about what the majority of devs are producing and I listed why I think focusing on animations is a big cause of the shitty scenes we often get.

 

[Domiek]

I literally just described how they can do just that, but I get it, you don't want to hear it because you're emotionally invested in your opinion that animations are the greatest shit ever, presumably because you spent time learning to do them.

You didn't describe anything but your feelings.

I feel like animations themselves limit the writing possibilities of a scene. I feel with static renders there is a certain amount of freedom to describe things via text that are not explicitly shown on screen.

You are entitled to feel however you want, but feelings aren't an explanation. You do understand that you can have both renders and animations, right?

I guess I should make the distinction that I am talking about sex animations. I like non-sex animations very much as those are usually always done to show dynamic motion that goes beyond still frames. They also are not 2 second loops that we are expected to watch for however long the dev thinks is appropriate to make the scene work.

Edit: I can see the retort already. Sex animations are also dynamic motion that goes beyond still frames, one might say. There is a difference in it's usage in the vast majority of cases though. Non-sex animations are almost universally the "cherry on top" to depict a sexy girl walking by, climactic fight scene, or a panning of the environment to improve atmosphere. Sex animations, on the other hand, are very often the linchpin that the devs focus on to carry the scenes. And there is always the opportunity cost to adding animations of any kind. That is undeniable.

Of course, we can argue all day that having a fully animated game could be better under optimal circumstances, but what's the point of that? I am talking about what the majority of devs are producing and I listed why I think focusing on animations is a big cause of the shitty scenes we often get.

I don't think you'll ever successfully make an argument for why animations are detrimental or ruining games, it's just illogical. If the game with an animation had lacking dialogue, then that same game without an animation would also have lacking dialogue.

Here's a better argument.

"Animations should be lowest priority in games. They don't offer enough value on their own to justify demanding the already limited resources of hobbyist devs. I'll take a well written game with no animations over a poorly written game with great animations."

And just like that, you would have a reasonable opinion. Thread can close now.

 

[fitgirlbestgirl]

Oh wow, I used terms like "I feel" to denote that I was stating an opinion instead of the absolute terms you use to try to pass your opinions off as indisputable facts, you got me.

Thread can close now.

lol

 

[ZZ23]

I'm going to echo what Domiek said. Animation is tool just like sound and renders. Good sound can elevate a scene to a next level for example and it doesn't matter how godlike your writing is, shit renders won't get you far because it is VISUAL novel.
We look for visual stimulus as well and animations do bring it to next level.

I will always chose well animated kissing scene then well made stills. Animations are very erotic and can bring characters alive and don't have an effect on storytelling. If you don't find it erotic then I can assure you, you are in minority especially if you don't see potential in animations.

"Animations should be lowest priority in games. They don't offer enough value on their own to justify demanding the already limited resources of hobbyist devs. I'll take a well written game with no animations over a poorly written game with great animations."

We can discuss this. But projecting your personal taste into animations make games worse? Do you mean VN only or all games?

 

[desmosome]

You didn't describe anything but your feelings.



You are entitled to feel however you want, but feelings aren't an explanation. You do understand that you can have both renders and animations, right?



I don't think you'll ever successfully make an argument for why animations are detrimental or ruining games, it's just illogical. If the game with an animation had lacking dialogue, then that same game without an animation would also have lacking dialogue.

Here's a better argument.

"Animations should be lowest priority in games. They don't offer enough value on their own to justify demanding the already limited resources of hobbyist devs. I'll take a well written game with no animations over a poorly written game with great animations."

And just like that, you would have a reasonable opinion. Thread can close now.

It's like you are intentionally being obtuse. Playing semantics and arguing against your idea of what I'm saying, rather than what's written.

The argument is that the animation is often what's producing the lacking dialogue and scene composition. And the points that support this argument was in the OP. You will retort by pointing out that these are the failures of the dev and not the concept of animations. That doesn't change the fact that animations are acting as pitfalls that many devs can fall into without even realizing. The title of this thread still stands, albeit in a rather hyperbolic sense. It translates to "many adult games on this site are worse off for having animations in the sex scenes."

 

[hgameartman]

Animation is really fun for me! I'm not the best at it yet, but it's a great challenge to rig a drawing, and I'm learning more and more each time I do it. I've started experimenting even with making the main frames be hand-drawn, while the rest are inbetweened in my software!

In addition to the sex scene, these also help me throughout the rest of the game development process, as the software makes me create a character model that is broken into parts that can be modified at runtime, which is a great advantage if you want, say, changeable outfits! Or demon horns! Or futa-transformation potion!.

That's not to mention cool stuff like animated expressions (blinking! cute angry pouting!)

So yeah, animations are great, at least to me.

 

[desmosome]

Animation is really fun for me! I'm not the best at it yet, but it's a great challenge to rig a drawing, and I'm learning more and more each time I do it. I've started experimenting even with making the main frames be hand-drawn, while the rest are inbetweened in my software!

In addition to the sex scene, these also help me throughout the rest of the game development process, as the software makes me create a character model that is broken into parts that can be modified at runtime, which is a great advantage if you want, say, changeable outfits! Or demon horns! Or futa-transformation potion!.

That's not to mention cool stuff like animated expressions (blinking! cute angry pouting!)

So yeah, animations are great, at least to me.

2D games are a whole different beast. 2DCG pretty much are limited to 1-3 CGs per scene anyways and is carried by the writing in the vast majority of cases. Adding some movement there wouldn't hurt. It's a very different situation than the typical DAZ renpy stuff.

 

[Domiek]

Oh wow, I used terms like "I feel" to denote that I was stating an opinion instead of the absolute terms you use to try to pass your opinions off as indisputable facts, you got me.

Yup, you stated your opinion based on feelings. You don't explain the why or the how.

"Yeah my boy was coloring pretty good with the 8 color crayons box but as soon as we upgraded to the 24 color box... I don't want to talk about it."

We can discuss this. But projecting your personal taste into animations make games worse? Do you mean VN only or all games?

Naw it's not my opinion. I was trying to give the other guy an easy way out but looks like he's digging deep into nonsense.

It's like you are intentionally being obtuse. Playing semantics and arguing against your idea of what I'm saying, rather than what's written.

The argument is that the animation is often what's producing the lacking dialogue and scene composition. And the points that support this argument was in the OP. You will retort by pointing out that these are the failures of the dev and not the concept of animations. That doesn't change the fact that animations are acting as pitfalls that many devs can fall into without even realizing. The title of this thread still stands, albeit in a rather hyperbolic sense. It translates to "many adult games on this site are worse off for having animations in the sex scenes."

What's written is verbal vomit. Read your OP, its the equivalent of a 3 year old doodling and wanting mommy and daddy to hang it on the fridge. It's a 3 paragraphs too long rant about low quality animations and poor sex dialogue. You fail to make any sense. You claim your opinions as fact. Everything you've said is simply your personal opinion without even the slightest attempt at supporting evidence. Examples of devs 1st game without animations compared to 2nd with them? Examples of real scenes to illustrate your thoughts? Naw, that's crazy talk.

Again, just to be clear. You can say that most animations are poor quality/janky and that you don't think they're worth the time investment. That's a totally valid opinion. You can say that sex scenes commonly feature lackluster dialogue and buildup, totally reasonable opinion. Stating that animations *cause* poor dialogue as fact because you said so? Cuckoo-cuckoo!

Every time you respond I'm more inclined to believe that you're a frustrated virgin. Guess what, people in real life do say "suck on it for a bit", girls do say "fuck.. I'm gonna cum". I don't know what intellectually stimulating dialogue you're expecting from a 3 second blowjob loop but the last UN Council meeting is definitely not on her mind. Let me guess, you also read Playboy just for the articles and go to strip clubs for the wings.

 

[ZZ23]

Domiek

I quoted that because I didn't want to repeat same thing so I used as and example on what what proper discussion could be. It wasn't pointed towards you.

 

[desmosome]

Yup, you stated your opinion based on feelings. You don't explain the why or the how.

"Yeah my boy was coloring pretty good with the 8 color crayons box but as soon as we upgraded to the 24 color box... I don't want to talk about it."



Naw it's not my opinion. I was trying to give the other guy an easy way out but looks like he's digging deep into nonsense.




What's written is verbal vomit. Read your OP, its the equivalent of a 3 year old doodling and wanting mommy and daddy to hang it on the fridge. It's a 3 paragraphs too long rant about low quality animations and poor sex dialogue. You fail to make any sense. You claim your opinions as fact. Everything you've said is simply your personal opinion without even the slightest attempt at supporting evidence. Examples of devs 1st game without animations compared to 2nd with them? Examples of real scenes to illustrate your thoughts? Naw, that's crazy talk.

Again, just to be clear. You can say that most animations are poor quality/janky and that you don't think they're worth the time investment. That's a totally valid opinion. You can say that sex scenes commonly feature lackluster dialogue and buildup, totally reasonable opinion. Stating that animations *cause* poor dialogue as fact because you said so? Cuckoo-cuckoo!

Every time you respond I'm more inclined to believe that you're a frustrated virgin. Guess what, people in real life do say "suck on it for a bit", girls do say "fuck.. I'm gonna cum". I don't know what intellectually stimulating dialogue you're expecting from a 3 second blowjob loop but the last UN Council meeting is definitely not on her mind. Let me guess, you also read Playboy just for the articles and go to strip clubs for the wings.

lmfao OK dude. That's a rather extreme response there. Does my points directly describe your game or something? Please see yourself out.

 

[xoxo]

The only devs delivering 500+ renders per update (that don't take 6 months to a year to be finished) are the ones counting their animations' frames to get to that number, and/or they make several sequential renders that look too similar and count expressions changes as new CGs.

I agree it can be a massive waste of time, specially because people making bad animations usually make bad renders anyway, so they should spend their time investing in improving other skills first.

Just a note though; you don't render each frame with the same quality you render an unique picture, so if you usually need 10 minutes to render one picture, you can render probably 5 frames using the same time for your animations.
If you have a good PC and are experienced enough to make them somewhat fast, then it's not a waste of time at all, I believe most players really enjoy them.

So, in my opinion, animations are bad for beginners and good for experienced devs.
I like your insight about showing text with animations, it makes sense and I think devs should think about this, but I guess players usually just remember the context of the scene when 'using' the animation and prefer to watch the clean version without text, just like I imagine players don't keep reading the dialogue when using pictures.