Anyone willing to give up trade secrets for eliminating Uncanny Valley in 3d renders? (Preferably for Daz Studio)

[hakarlman]

Anyone willing to give up trade secrets for eliminating Uncanny Valley in 3d renders? Preferably for Daz Studio, but it can also be for Blender, 3Dsmax or Maya. Technical instructions that delve deep into modifying textures, materials, shaders, creating proper morph proportions, etc. I've already formulated my own technique, but I'm hoping to compare and contrast it with other peoples approach.

Example:
_____
Removing Uncanny Valley from DAZ renders 101
"So, you're renders look like shit, but you don't know why? Chances are it's the uncanny valley effect? Here's how to fix it:"
1. Click Surfaces.
2. Do this to your material.
3. Now do this with your textures.
4. Keep morph proportions like this.
5. .... More technical instructions.
6. ..... More technical instructions.
7. Make sure your lighting doesn't make this mistake.
8. don't do this. don't do that. specifics.
_____

Here's an introductory DAZ Studio blog article that that talks about how to avoid Uncanny Valley problems, if you want to dive in:

You must be registered to see the links

- From this article and others, I formulated a technique, but still want to compare it to other peoples methods.

EDIT: At first I wanted to post this in programming, development, but I think it's better if the average end user can chime in too. If you guys want to just talk about uncanny valley effect go ahead. If this post gets move to programming, development, I understand, all good.

 

[Monstrous Marshmallow]

The problem with this is that it's pretty subjective, and what may seem weird to some might be perfectly fine to others.

Personally speaking, what can make me feel this effect can be due to multiple reasons.

1. The expressions and poses are unnatural or too extreme

2. The models don't match the age of the character.

3. The models look too similar to each other

 

[HarveyD]

The problem with this is that it's pretty subjective, and what may seem weird to some might be perfectly fine to others.

There are a shockingly high number of games that when I look at the screenshots, I have to wonder how anyone could think that their characters look like human beings.

 

[Meaning Less]

There are a shockingly high number of games that when I look at the screenshots, I have to wonder how anyone could think that their characters look like human beings.

That's exactly what uncanny valley means though... when something has realistic human features but doesn't look human, androids, dolls, etc.

There is no "fix" for it, to leave the uncanny valley you either make it actually look more realistic to a point that actually looks good or back down into more cartoony graphics that stay outside of the valley.

 

[baloneysammich]

I have to wonder how anyone could think that their characters look like human beings.

has realistic human features but doesn't look human

This sounds more like poor artistry though, which is practically the opposite to uncanny valley.

"Have you ever looked at a humanoid robot, cartoon, or 3D render and felt an eerie chill creep over your skin? If you’ve experienced this unsettling feeling looking at something not quite human...

Masahiro Mori ... coined the term “uncanny valley” to describe his observation that as robots became more human-like they seemed to reach a point — an uncanny valley — where their realism was no longer appealing but caused a feeling of strangeness and even unease. "

Different people have different thresholds for uncanny valley I suppose*, but if something doesn't remotely fool you into thinking it's real even for a moment then it's not an example of uncanny valley.

* For me, still images never trigger uncanny valley. Really the only things that do (talking CG at least) are very high end Hollywood productions.

This concludes my PED[ant] Talk.

 

[Knox_xx]

Dont go for "ultra 4k octane realism", make it a little bit cartoonish and cute

 

[Orgitas]

When it comes to poses, some may need tweaking (if you use one from a pack) always try to use a real life reference. Also try to make facial features asymmetrical. Humans very rarely have near perfect symmetry. Tweak the morphs around the eyes. Not often a person stands that with just a smile and no eye, or nose movement, just feels weird.

Lighting will also make a massive difference. If you just throw in a lot of lighting to make the images look flat (like many Daz made AVNs do.. Seriously.. Learn how to light a scene. Improves things 100 fold.) you can hide some features and highlight more prominent ones.

 

[Meaning Less]

but if something doesn't remotely fool you into thinking it's real even for a moment then it's not an example of uncanny valley.

Being actually fooled by something looking real has nothing to do with it, you just have the wrong interpretation of uncanny valley there, from wikipedia:
"The concept suggests that

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objects that imperfectly resemble actual human beings provoke

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or strangely familiar feelings of uneasiness and revulsion in observers."

The valley simply aludes that there is a point in which too much realism has the opposite effect of what one would expect, this was observed in the 70s, way before we even had realistic graphics to "fool" anyone so your argument is completely besides the point.

DAZ is the perfect example of uncanny valley because things rendered with it look like dolls wearing fleshy human skin. They go too hard on skin and raytraced lighting but neglect the rest.

 

[ChadChan3D]

I believe the best way to avoid it is to go to cartoony extremes.

Don't approach the valley by replicating reality: You're gonna fall right in.

Use the medium to its strengths--fantasy--and make expressions cartoonish, extreme, so it's obvious these things exist outside reality.

There's an art to this, though. Too extreme and you risk becoming absurdist and disturbing.

But better to be clearly fiction than an eerie facsimile to reality.

 

[HarveyD]

This sounds more like poor artistry though, which is practically the opposite to uncanny valley.

I would agree that it isn't necessarily "uncanny valley". My Point was more about it being subjective. As I can only assume these devs are trying to make realistic characters, at least to their mind.

Also agree that it has to be at least trying to fool you. Obviously stylised characters rarely have that effect.

 

[anonsquid]

Anyone willing to give up trade secrets for eliminating Uncanny Valley in 3d renders? Preferably for Daz Studio, but it can also be for Blender, 3Dsmax or Maya. Technical instructions that delve deep into modifying textures, materials, shaders, creating proper morph proportions, etc. I've already formulated my own technique, but I'm hoping to compare and contrast it with other peoples approach.

Example:
_____
Removing Uncanny Valley from DAZ renders 101
"So, you're renders look like shit, but you don't know why? Chances are it's the uncanny valley effect? Here's how to fix it:"
1. Click Surfaces.
2. Do this to your material.
3. Now do this with your textures.
4. Keep morph proportions like this.
5. .... More technical instructions.
6. ..... More technical instructions.
7. Make sure your lighting doesn't make this mistake.
8. don't do this. don't do that. specifics.
_____

Here's an introductory DAZ Studio blog article that that talks about how to avoid Uncanny Valley problems, if you want to dive in:

You must be registered to see the links

- From this article and others, I formulated a technique, but still want to compare it to other peoples methods.

EDIT: At first I wanted to post this in programming, development, but I think it's better if the average end user can chime in too. If you guys want to just talk about uncanny valley effect go ahead. If this post gets move to programming, development, I understand, all good.

simple. don't use Daz3D

 

[nulnil]

From the Daz3D games I played, all the character models looked dry. Like there was no moisture at all on the surface of their skin. Lighting was usually terrible too.

 

[woody554]

From the Daz3D games I played, all the character models looked dry. Like there was no moisture at all on the surface of their skin. Lighting was usually terrible too.

the dryness comes from lack of subsurface scattering. waxiness comes from having too much of it and/or no map modulating the detail of it. to look like real skin it needs to be in the goldilock's zone between those, the point of which depends on the darkness of the sss map. and yeah it's super common with daz beginners and especially offputting when the fun holes look dry like that.

lighting is another beginner problem. usually it's too low for the subsurface scattering to work so skin looks zombie grey. another common problem is not understanding that large surface emission lights don't produce highlights, and you need highlights to have realistic cinematic look.

the easiest but not completely realistic way to hide weakness in skin rendering is using the top coat glossiness system and cranking up reflectivity very high, which creates like an oily wet film on the skin to reflect both bounced environment and adding tons of highlights. the downside is everybody looks like they just oil-wrestled instead of actual skin, but people seem to experience that as 'good rendering'.

 

[woody554]

about uncanny valley, my belief is that it doesn't result from 'too much realism' but lack of microexpressions which makes our brain deduce 'there's something badly wrong with that person'. like disability or psychopath -wrong. if you've ever spent time among people with varying levels of brain damage you experience the same exact weird feeling as with say, a robot with crude manipulators pushing a 'realistic' latex mask. they look kinda like aliens trying to imitate humans badly, or there's a disconnection which makes them look like psychopaths because you don't connect with their emotions.

where as if you look at videos of

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on 3d-heads they suddenly look super realistic the second the wrinkling is there.

 

[AlternateDreams]

Personally, I've never had this problem with any of the games I've played using Daz models, simply because no character resembles a real person enough to produce this kind of effect for me.
At no time did my brain have any doubt that what I was seeing was not human.

So as baloneysammich said, I guess it depends on the person.

On the other hand, this

View attachment 2494669

is right in the uncanny valley.
At first, my brain thinks 'it's a human' because the model is realistic enough to induce doubt; but immediately afterwards, almost instantly in fact, it says 'wait, there's something weird, there's something not right there' (in this case mainly the eyes and the lips).

 

[ChadChan3D]

about uncanny valley, my belief is that it doesn't result from 'too much realism' but lack of microexpressions which makes our brain deduce 'there's something badly wrong with that person'. like disability or psychopath -wrong. if you've ever spent time among people with varying levels of brain damage you experience the same exact weird feeling as with say, a robot with crude manipulators pushing a 'realistic' latex mask. they look kinda like aliens trying to imitate humans badly, or there's a disconnection which makes them look like psychopaths because you don't connect with their emotions.

where as if you look at videos of

You must be registered to see the links

on 3d-heads they suddenly look super realistic the second the wrinkling is there.

Very true. This is also the cause of the revulsion people feel when viewing AI art--it's a million minor defects that put our subconscious on edge.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

where as if you look at videos of

You must be registered to see the links

on 3d-heads they suddenly look super realistic the second the wrinkling is there.

It's 95% in the lighting, still.

Spoiler: There's not a lot of wrinkles here for example

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Or in any retouched real photo, yet we don't see the uncanniness. Retouch and makeup are the bane of wrinkles, and they're everywhere.

Good raytracing (DAZ is irredeemably shit, it seems) + good subsurface scattering and natural poses, that's the recipe for success.

 

[woody554]

photo of GOT chick

the smoothed photo of GOT chick still has normal microexpressions, which for example the earlier posted robot with latex mask image lacked.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

the smoothed photo of GOT chick still has normal microexpressions, which for example the earlier posted robot with latex mask image lacked.

Yeah, I agree. I should've probably used a different, broader term rather than "natural poses". It's all body placement in the end (technically), but face and hands are more finicky and way more important than other parts.