Artist/Writer/Programmer - who gets how much?

[LoveMonkey]

While making a game, the distribution of revenue percentages can vary depending on the type of game. For instance, in the case of a sandbox game similar to NLT MEDIA's projects, if you've formed a team for a revenue-sharing arrangement, how would the revenue be divided among the team members?

 

[Nicke]

While making a game, the distribution of revenue percentages can vary depending on the type of game. For instance, in the case of a sandbox game similar to NLT MEDIA's projects, if you've formed a team for a revenue-sharing arrangement, how would the revenue be divided among the team members?

Artist 70%, writer 15%, coder 15%. This would roughly be the work-load split in my opinion and personal experience.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Artist 70%, writer 15%, coder 15%. This would roughly be the work-load split in my opinion and personal experience.

Hmm.
A game with a good writing and a well handled story can succeed with average CGs, the opposite is way more exceptional. Below 25% don't expect a writer, nor a coder, that will do more that aligning (key)words one after the others.

As to answer OP, it depend of the quality, quantity and importance of works that each one have to do.
By example, a project with a really good writer can exist without the artist, while a game relying on Unreal engine wouldn't exist without a coder. In both case, the guy would surely refuse to works below at least 33%.

 

[Nicke]

Hmm.
A game with a good writing and a well handled story can succeed with average CGs, the opposite is way more exceptional. Below 25% don't expect a writer, nor a coder, that will do more that aligning (key)words one after the others.

This was my rough estimate of the work load split (based on personal experience). If an artist is willing to do 75% of the work for 33% of the split, good for the rest of the team. Other ways of making graphics can be faster, maybe they'd do a lot more dialogue per render, and so on. For me, it takes 30-40 days of rendering to catch up with 5 days of writing. And then I code it up in 1 day, but I increased the coder time above because sandbox. I do ren'py, daz3d and notepad respectively, for reference

 

[MissFortune]

Working in teams isn't smart. They're almost always doomed to fail.

If you're incapable of doing something, hire someone. Makes your life a lot easier and leaves the drama at the front door.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Other ways of making graphics can be faster, maybe they'd do a lot more dialogue per render, and so on. For me, it takes 30-40 days of rendering to catch up with 5 days of writing.

And as I said, it's not a question of time, but quality, quantity and importance.

After, if you're dark cookie, you can split differently, but for the average game and its US$ 200/month, it will never works. The coder will earn more doing a block breaker, and the writer selling an indie book. But the artist will not earn much with his slideshows.

 

[Nicke]

And as I said, it's not a question of time, but quality, quantity and importance.

After, if you're dark cookie, you can split differently, but for the average game and its US$ 200/month, it will never works. The coder will earn more doing a block breaker, and the writer selling an indie book. But the artist will not earn much with his slideshows.

But with how little work the writer and coder do compared to the artist, they can do those other things while keeping up with the game too.

At the end of the day though, the odds that any of them can make a living off of making an adult game is pretty slim. You do these kind of games because it's a passion, and for a very small minority it can turn into a fulltime job after a couple of years. So with that in mind, you can certainly set out with a 33/33/33 split to make everyone happy and see where it goes. But to say it's fair because a guy who can put together ren'py or unity code is like a unicorn is bit ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 2282952]

Working in teams isn't smart. They're almost always doomed to fail.

If you're incapable of doing something, hire someone. Makes your life a lot easier and leaves the drama at the front door.

This - revenue split rarely works, I would be shocked if there are many games out there with 3 devs on a revenue split, maybe 2 is possible if you are tight and excited about the game. Feel free to prove me wrong with examples - I would be interested to see.

If you make a pure VN, I would estimate 40 Artist/40 Writer/20 Coder.

If you make a more complicated sandbox with lots of variables and features, equal split.

This is an assumption made with a thought that everyone in the team has an EQUAL level of experience.

Still waiting for that second Katawa Shoujo miracle.

 

[anne O'nymous]

But to say it's fair because a guy who can put together ren'py or unity code is like a unicorn is bit ridiculous.

For them it's fair, because, once again, the artist's work would be nothing without them.

At work, and boss excluded of course, there's three people who are payed more than me, and all three looks like they are working even less than me.
But the fact is that without our marvelous code guru, we wouldn't have such reputation, while without our wizard security admin, we would have been fucked more than once. And you can't exist as commercial entity, nor works efficiently as computer related company, if you don't have a good network/system admin.
Plus, anyway, it's not because you don't see them working, that they don't work their ass out. You don't reach their level of knowledge and skill without being constantly practicing.
The same apply for me. Each time I'm helping someone fix his code make it easier for me to help coworkers fix theirs. And each solution I found for a "how can I do this", help me perfect the out of the box thinking that is part of the reasons why I'm the fourth most payed.
Oh, of course, the guys who turn my thoughts into reality works more than me. I pass a day coming to an algorithm, and they need a week to turn it into something working efficiently ; then hate my test suit But so far none looks like it's something unfair. I have skills that they still have to acquire, and they understand that it's where lie the difference between our paycheck.

 

[Synx]

For them it's fair, because, once again, the artist's work would be nothing without them.

At work, and boss excluded of course, there's three people who are payed more than me, and all three looks like they are working even less than me.
But the fact is that without our marvelous code guru, we wouldn't have such reputation, while without our wizard security admin, we would have been fucked more than once. And you can't exist as commercial entity, nor works efficiently as computer related company, if you don't have a good network/system admin.
Plus, anyway, it's not because you don't see them working, that they don't work their ass out. You don't reach their level of knowledge and skill without being constantly practicing.
The same apply for me. Each time I'm helping someone fix his code make it easier for me to help coworkers fix theirs. And each solution I found for a "how can I do this", help me perfect the out of the box thinking that is part of the reasons why I'm the fourth most payed.
Oh, of course, the guys who turn my thoughts into reality works more than me. I pass a day coming to an algorithm, and they need a week to turn it into something working efficiently ; then hate my test suit But so far none looks like it's something unfair. I have skills that they still have to acquire, and they understand that it's where lie the difference between our paycheck.

This doesn't translate to the artist/writer/coder situation though. In your example everyone works roughly in the same field; they are all coders of some kind. Yes it makes sense that a senior coder with a ton of knowledge gets payed more than a beginner coder, even if they work less. You pay them for their knowledge compared to a beginner.

But here its 3 people in 3 different fields. Unless one of them brings extra that will guarantee (or make it more likely) for the project to succeed, like an existing audience or something, basing payment on quality/quantity doesn't work. There is nothing to compare to inside the project.

Payment on a small team with 3 different clear professions should be based on time spend. Its the most fair. If the project grows and new people are brought in, then you can start paying different amounts based on quality in each separate field, but until it should be time spend. And artwork just takes way longer than coding.

 

[anne O'nymous]

In your example everyone works roughly in the same field; they are all coders of some kind.

It's not because knowing how to code is a big plus for an admin system/network, nor because it's relatively mandatory for an admin security, that they are coders and that coding represent most of their job.
They are as coder than a truck driver is a mechanic. They know the basis and can solve the issue directly related to their job, but would be relatively unable to do something that need to goes more in depth.

Their job is directly linked to computers, but so is the job of community managers, digital artists, or computer repairer. Yet you wouldn't expect them to be able to code, at least not beyond few basic lines of script.

But here its 3 people in 3 different fields. Unless one of them brings extra that will guarantee (or make it more likely) for the project to succeed,

Try to release a game full of bugs, and look how successful it will be.
Repeat with a game that have a childish writing full of inconstancy, and look if it succeed more.
Then compare with some of the games that use Sims 4 for the CGs, or have clearly average renders.
And while you're at it, compare with games that have top high CGs, but a bad writing or too many bugs.

While being the part that need the more time, the CGs just accompany the story and game mechanisms. In their majority, players will pardon more easily bad CGs, than bugs or bad writing.

Payment on a small team with 3 different clear professions should be based on time spend. Its the most fair.

And also the reason why most starting teams abandon the project in less than one year. Both the writer and coder will do the strict minimum, because they aren't paid commensurate with the importance of their work. All this while the artist will wore his ass out, but for nothing because the CGs by themselves will never be enough.

 

[Synx]

You make it sound like you just need a working brain cell to create artwork while you would need a PHD for coding, and a Pulzar price for writing. We are talking about adult games, not the next fucking Red dead redemption lol. People expectations for Adult games is fairly low; Non-translated English, and some small choices is already enough to satisfy most people. Same for artwork; They don't expect the next Picasso, but ass long as the characters look decent and the sex scenes are fine, its a win in most peoples books.

The quality of writing and amount of coding required is so basic that they shouldn't expect to get paid the same just because their job might be slightly harder than the other guy pumping out renders for 3 months straight 8+ hours a day to meet some deadline the other two set-up after doing their work in a week...

And you are massively undervaluing the importance of good artwork in adult VN's. Just going through the most liked games here:

• Being a DIK: Story is mediocre (especially the further you in get), but good renders/animations carries it pretty hard.
• Summer time saga: Artwork, by a landslide. I have played it years ago, and I literally couldn't tell you what its about outside of some Incest game.
• Milf city: Same as above
• Harem Hotel: Story isn't bad but its popular because of the massive amount of adult scenes.
• Treasure of nadia; Getting carried by the massive amount of well animated scenes. Story and game play elements are mediocre at best.
• Dating my Daughter; No idea really, I have played it years ago but nothing really worth remembering apparently.
• What a legend; Amazing artwork. Story isn't anything special but its writing in a somewhat funny tone, but I highly doubt it would be this popular without its amazing 2D artwork.
• City of Broken dreams: Bit of both. It has good renders and a good story.
• Man of the House; It has a story?
• Eternum; Story for sure. It has above average animations for an honey select game, but its still honey select.

etc. etc.

And artwork is the first thing people see and the main thing to create the initial interest.

And again I want to emphasize we are talking about adult games not normal games. Adult games where non-translated English is fine, and an handfull of meaningfull choices in 2-3 hours of game-play is good.

And also the reason why most starting teams abandon the project in less than one year. Both the writer and coder will do the strict minimum, because they aren't paid commensurate with the importance of their work. All this while the artist will wore his ass out, but for nothing because the CGs by themselves will never be enough.

My experience going through the recruitment forum once a month or so is exactly the opposite; so many teams are looking for new artist or more artists, compared to a writer or a coder. Artist are massively undervalued. Writers and coders can easily do this as a side project, couple hours a week, but if the game wants a 3-month update cycle the artist got to spend most of their free time on it.

Anyway this discussion is exactly the reason why teams don't work; Everyone thinks they deserve a bigger piece of pie for X reason, while in reality there isn't even a pie to divide.

 

[Tompte]

In my experience from working in games professionally, us programmers were always payed more than the artists. In fact, I've always been payed more than I asked for. At one company I was payed around 15-25% more than my artist colleagues, and I've worked with some extraordinarily talented artists. I agree that artists are undervalued.

I can only speculate about the reasons. I'm guessing it's because I'm being payed as an engineer and for my seniority. Also, when working on a live game, I carried a big responsibility to make sure nothing got fucked up when having to rush out updates. The company's entire revenue stream was literally at my finger tips. The artists could always go home whenever the day was over but I often had to stay late to make sure we released on time. Responsibility is a big factor in salaries.

Programming is tiring work and I often come home completely exhausted. But I don't believe for a second the same couldn't be said for an artist. I don't think it's very fruitful to measure the disciplines against one another. They're very different jobs and we do them as a team. I couldn't do my work without the artists and they couldn't do theirs without me. Comparing work loads is just silly if you ask me.

I mean, maybe if it was a tiny baby game with almost no code in it then maybe there's a discussion to be had, but I've never worked on a game like that.

None of the games I've worked on had much of a story in them (the exceptions I wrote myself) but I hope this perspective was helpful regardless.

 

[Synx]

In my experience from working in games professionally, us programmers were always payed more than the artists. In fact, I've always been payed more than I asked for. At one company I was payed around 15-25% more than my artist colleagues, and I've worked with some extraordinarily talented artists. I agree that artists are undervalued.

But this is from a full time position. I agree coding a normal game is way more challenging than an adult game, and I can completely understand if coders are payed more in that regard. Coding jobs often require a full decree as well, while that's less important for an artist.

But from a bit of my own experience trying to create something, and other adult developers around here, the coding amount required to create an Adult VN is very limited. The guy above said for every 30-40 days of creating art, it only took a day or so to code it all together. A statement most other developers have repeated; The vast majority of time spend on creating an adult game is spend on Artwork. Most VN's don't have any gameplay mechanics, outside of a tracking system for an handful of choices, or some 'love' point system.

This is why to me it doesn't make sense to pay everyone in an Adult development team the same amount, when there is such a massive dispensary in workload. Even if you value the coding required twice as high as the artwork, with the above guys workload example, the artist should still be payed 15-20 times more than the coder just by the amount of work required.

 

[KiaAzad]

Managing a game is a bit more complex than having a split formula.
To keep a team together, you have to assess what your game needs, find people that can provide that at a reasonable cost, and compensate them at a rate that keeps them happy. The amount of work, the quality of their work, their speed, their reliability, and even the place they live in all play a role in your calculations, it's never as straight forward as second hand numbers you can get from others.
Also, the people that are good at what they do, have a line of clients willing to pay them, they can choose the higher paying clients, you might have to take in account the popularity of your team members when writing down your numbers.