VN Ren'Py Blurring the Walls [v0.5.4v2] [Torimiata]

[Griev]

Step 1: actually release something, anything.

But the issue is he hasn't lost his audience....at all.

Right!
There's a lot of people on F95 in general that believe negative posts on a pirate site = drop in actual paying subs.
He doesn't NEED to win his audience back because not only did they never leave, but they've grown. He has more subs today than he had during the 5.2 sub spike! lol.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

pausing the patreon was a good move because it helps him demonstrate that he's not intentionally milking, so that helps.

he'll get new subs if the remaster is well-received, but most of his hardcore original fans are gonna be pretty reluctant to contribute unless he can get his workflow unfucked. i'm not optimistic. his "keep polishing in isolation until its perfect" is an absolutely terrible strategy for building games, but i guess we'll see

I didn't know this till you mentioned - I'd agree that's a great step in the right direction.

So much of what fueled my scorn was the pairing of indefinitely delaying a product while still collecting money (yeah yeah refunds and all, any creator knows that's not the same a a complete stop).

While I'll temper my criticism, I don't think this bodes well for the outlook.

 

[jclosed]

I don't see the reason for the whole drama going on here.

First of all - This is a pirate site, so people are exactly entitled to NOTHING at all. So that's that.
In other words - Just wait patiently until something comes our way.

Secondly - Why are people upset that other people give money to the developer? It's their choice, and they can stop giving money and support every time they want. It's not that the author points a gun at their head and shouts "pay up sucker!". Those that are paying do that fully knowing where they got themselves in to. That must be very obvious by now. They made their choice and no shouting, "gnashing of teeth" or complaining her will change a single bit about that.

It's tiresome to see people here running around in a treadmill, repeating the same stuff over and over again. Updates will come or not, and no endless repeating yourselves her will change anything about that.

Me myself? Well - If a update will become available I will take a look. I don't care if it's now, or several months later. I have more than enough stuff to amuse myself with (tons of VN's and tons of games) for a very, very long time. If a update becomes available, great! Otherwise - I have enough stuff to do, and feel no need to go whining for a single VN.

 

[Pich168]

I don't see the reason for the whole drama going on here.

First of all - This is a pirate site, so people are exactly entitled to NOTHING at all. So that's that.
In other words - Just wait patiently until something comes our way.

Secondly - Why are people upset that other people give money to the developer? It's their choice, and they can stop giving money and support every time they want. It's not that the author points a gun at their head and shouts "pay up sucker!". Those that are paying do that fully knowing where they got themselves in to. That must be very obvious by now. They made their choice and no shouting, "gnashing of teeth" or complaining her will change a single bit about that.

It's tiresome to see people here running around in a treadmill, repeating the same stuff over and over again. Updates will come or not, and no endless repeating yourselves her will change anything about that.

Me myself? Well - If a update will become available I will take a look. I don't care if it's now, or several months later. I have more than enough stuff to amuse myself with (tons of VN's and tons of games) for a very, very long time. If a update becomes available, great! Otherwise - I have enough stuff to do, and feel no need to go whining for a single VN.

All due respect Sir, imo without community and trolling this game would feel very dry. Yeah we know we entitled as “NOTHING” as you said, but this is pirate site some people just here for a little drama or seeking fun like my self.
Anyway TORI is still a “hypocrite” no one can change my mind unless he change his working behavior haha

 

[slim-kr]

Can we just criticize what we feel is wrong or do we need to ask jclosed before ?

If some of us don't pay on patreon it's because of what we say here and won't say on patreon obviously because we're not going to pay for it (anymore).

I gave hundreds of $ on patreon yet won't give this one creator anymore.
free speech, if you feel something is right or wrong you say it but don't say that the opposite side is wrong because you don't experience it the same way. (because first of all you have tons of game waiting for you, you didn't pay, didn't have hope at precise timing etc).
trust and communication are important

 

[Athres]

Can we just criticize what we feel is wrong or do we need to ask jclosed before ?

If some of us don't pay on patreon it's because of what we say here and won't say on patreon obviously because we're not going to pay for it (anymore).

I gave hundreds of $ on patreon yet won't give this one creator anymore.
free speech, if you feel something is right or wrong you say it but don't say that the opposite side is wrong because you don't experience it the same way. (because first of all you have tons of game waiting for you, you didn't pay, didn't have hope at precise timing etc).
trust and communication are important

I am in same boat. I was premium subscriber up to beginning of October and all this time since august I communicate with Tori in Discord server and suggest him how to handle it better. I am not agains Remaster itself. I am agains the way he is doing it. Money was never a problem to me, since I spend around 100$ each month on Patreon. 15 more 15 less is not a big deal for me, but I don't like when people I support with money spit me in face with my money.

 

[burcounting808]

I am in same boat. I was premium subscriber up to beginning of October and all this time since august I communicate with Tori in Discord server and suggest him how to handle it better. I am not agains Remaster itself. I am agains the way he is doing it. Money was never a problem to me, since I spend around 100$ each month on Patreon. 15 more 15 less is not a big deal for me, but I don't like when people I support with money spit me in face with my money.

Assuming the remaster had to happen no matter what, can you explain what would have been a better way to do the remaster?

 

[Athres]

can you explain what would have been a better way to do the remaster?

The very first suggestion was do remaster AFTER ending the game. I knew several projects which did it.
Second, release it part by part together with new updates. Like: 0.6.0 + remaster of first game release (0.2.7 if I remember correct), then 0.7.0 + remaster of 0.3.0, 0.8.0 + remaster of 0.4.0 and so on. I again I knew some projects who did it and no one in their community complain about it.

 

[slaveofdesire]

The very first suggestion was do remaster AFTER ending the game. I knew several projects which did it.
Second, release it part by part together with new updates. Like: 0.6.0 + remaster of first game release (0.2.7 if I remember correct), then 0.7.0 + remaster of 0.3.0, 0.8.0 + remaster of 0.4.0 and so on. I again I knew some projects who did it and no one in their community complain about it.

That would be doing a lot of extra work only so that people wouldn´t complain.

 

[Athres]

That would be doing a lot of extra work only so that people wouldn´t complain.

That's your opinion, but if you doing something through Patreon or similar sites you have responsability to respond to people complain if you don't want to lose support.

It doesn't matter anyway with Tori. From talking with him I learn that he will do whatever he wants even if everyone unsubscribe.

See no reason to support him because of this. My subscription will just have no effect on anything with this project.

 

[kikomascado]

That would be doing a lot of extra work only so that people wouldn´t complain.

Why would it be extra work? It's just splitting it across multiples updates.

 

[Based Department]

Assuming the remaster had to happen no matter what, can you explain what would have been a better way to do the remaster?

First, Announce it ahead of time.
Second, under no circumstances should you come out and explicitly state that the remaster would only be a few scenes and not the whole game and then just remaster the whole game anyway.

 

[idkmanerally]

First, Announce it ahead of time.
Second, under no circumstances should you come out and explicitly state that the remaster would only be a few scenes and not the whole game and then just remaster the whole game anyway.

he also never announced the change of plans when he decided to remaster the whole game. one day when people were complaining about it taking a long time he just says "yea i mean it's a lot of work, i'm redoing the entire game" and everyone was like "????????????? but you said???????" and he just shrugged and treated his paying supporters like they were crazy for being confused about it.

 

[burcounting808]

The very first suggestion was do remaster AFTER ending the game. I knew several projects which did it.
Second, release it part by part together with new updates. Like: 0.6.0 + remaster of first game release (0.2.7 if I remember correct), then 0.7.0 + remaster of 0.3.0, 0.8.0 + remaster of 0.4.0 and so on. I again I knew some projects who did it and no one in their community complain about it.

Why would it be extra work? It's just splitting it across multiples updates.

So this obviously would be perfectly fine if he was just updating the visuals of the game. Which he has stated multiple times that is not the case. We're going to have to wait and see once the game comes out but it sounds like he reimagined almost all the scenes in the game as well as added new ones. Some changed a ton so it's basically brand new. I'm guessing that also comes with mega scripting changes in order to align the beginning story to the new two path system and then building on that narrative in the more recent updates.

If he went down the path you suggested we would have two random stories going on at the same time. We'd have the newer story in early updates then the old story in the middle with old graphics and then he would have the newer story again in the most recent update which wouldn't make sense since we're missing the middle of the script since it's just the old update? Just makes more sense to start from the beginning and make all the changes you've been holding off on and add your new things so future updates can align more with the new vision and truly build off a story that has a clear direction from the beginning.

 

[burcounting808]

First, Announce it ahead of time.
Second, under no circumstances should you come out and explicitly state that the remaster would only be a few scenes and not the whole game and then just remaster the whole game anyway.

he also never announced the change of plans when he decided to remaster the whole game. one day when people were complaining about it taking a long time he just says "yea i mean it's a lot of work, i'm redoing the entire game" and everyone was like "????????????? but you said???????" and he just shrugged and treated his paying supporters like they were crazy for being confused about it.

I think we've established communication as a weak point for the dev. So although all of those complaints are valid, they are kind of beating a dead horse at this point. I was looking more for opinions on how the dev could've handled the actual development side of the remaster since I was curious how other people/devs/games have done it.

 

[RAMPANT123456]

I think we've established communication as a weak point for the dev. So although all of those complaints are valid, they are kind of beating a dead horse at this point. I was looking more for opinions on how the dev could've handled the actual development side of the remaster since I was curious how other people/devs/games have done it.

Are you his alt? But jokes aside
"Beating a dead horse" when communication is part of the development, lets just say that a lightbulb went on his mind or his problems began last moments on 0.6 development (wich I don't believe) as he said the update was "basically over" before he decided to remake the game, he should've finished the update, with all the pain and "perfectionism" aside that would've shown the change in style maybe if it was a thing, then after that he would've been able to communicate with his audience (oh no communication) about everything that he has on mind for the future of the project and then talk about the remake, and stopping the proyect for a time or releasing updates in parts of the remake up to the same point, that would even add intrigue and interest in people if the remake is as different with the routes and all that as he said and even gain more audience, but obviously there will be detractors as with everything, i think that i would've still be backing him if he did somethin like that, instead of leaving everyone in the dark for a thing he came up in apparently a day

 

[Athres]

I think we've established communication as a weak point for the dev. So although all of those complaints are valid, they are kind of beating a dead horse at this point. I was looking more for opinions on how the dev could've handled the actual development side of the remaster since I was curious how other people/devs/games have done it.

His weak point is not exactly a communication, but planning.

 

[slaveofdesire]

Why would it be extra work? It's just splitting it across multiples updates.

You are seriously asking that question? He would have to complete the game with the old method and the remaster method, its double the work. Once he releases the remaster he can release the next updates in the remaster method. Im not defending Tori here, justs saying that is not the way to go.

 

[skeerey]

You are seriously asking that question? He would have to complete the game with the old method and the remaster method, its double the work. Once he releases the remaster he can release the next updates in the remaster method. Im not defending Tori here, justs saying that is not the way to go.

I think what people are saying is that 0.6 and onwards will use the remaster method while every update or so replaces the old updates with the remastered version. Only problem is that tori scope creeped way too much and end up apparently making changes to the story so it wouldn't necessary work. Though if those changes are essentially nothing burger and doesnt change the current story much then i would have to wonder why it wasnt done iteratively.

Some of games i played remastered/revised on the final stretches of the story to make changes but it doesnt seem like we're even near it and tori is already remastering the game. Can definitely see tori remastering the remastered version in the future once the game is near the end.

 

[Zorg771]

Based on what I'm reading about the development of this game, it really feels like the overwhelming support and positivity Tori received early on got to his head; expectations skyrocketed and he started to overthink literally everything about the game, leading to a "remaster" of a game that barely even got room to breathe in the first place, and even more specific and odd changes like changing the dick size of certain characters. Lots of unnecessary road blocks.

I had really high hopes after finishing the latest version a few months back, but it really feels like Tori has no idea where to go from here and is just stringing patrons along as long as he can while trying to get his shit together and figure out a legitimate direction. At least he decided to pause people's subscriptions, but it happened way too late, and I'm sure he's well aware of that too.