VN Ren'Py Blurring the Walls [v0.5.4v2] [Torimiata]

[idkmanerally]

It's a waste of time for who though??? You guys need to stop treating Tori like a full time dev. This is just a side hobby. He's making this game as a passion project. People can support on Patreon if they want but he would still make the game without the current support the game has.

He said the remaster makes the game more aligned with how he pictured it and the remaster gives him more motivation to work harder on it. So how could it be a waste of time if it makes the dev more passionate about his own game that he makes in his free time after working at a normal job all day?

this is a discussion forum, not a support group for the dev. people are allowed to discuss how they feel about the art being created, whether they think creative decisions were good or bad, successes or failures, etc.

when a movie comes out and a critic says "i thought the ending sucked" they don't need some white knight leaping in to say "OH YA WELL THE DIRECTOR THOUGHT THE ENDING WAS PERFECT FOR HIS VISION!" because like... no shit! the director made the art, we are consuming and discussing the art. that's how this shit works.

when someone says it was a waste of time, they're saying "the effort it took the dev was not worth it to me, the consumer of the art" which is implicit and a completely normal thing to say when criticizing art

i'll tell you why it matters to me: every remastered image he's shared has been, at best, as good as the original, and at worst, worse than the original. if the dev is busting his ass for a remaster that everyone dislikes, the dev's motivation will evaporate and this game will be abandoned. thats bad and i dont want that to happen, but discussing its likelihood is valid and appropriate for this forum

 

[burcounting808]

this is a discussion forum, not a support group for the dev. people are allowed to discuss how they feel about the art being created, whether they think creative decisions were good or bad, successes or failures, etc.

when a movie comes out and a critic says "i thought the ending sucked" they don't need some white knight leaping in to say "OH YA WELL THE DIRECTOR THOUGHT THE ENDING WAS PERFECT FOR HIS VISION!" because like... no shit! the director made the art, we are consuming and discussing the art. that's how this shit works.

when someone says it was a waste of time, they're saying "the effort it took the dev was not worth it to me, the consumer of the art" which is implicit and a completely normal thing to say when criticizing art

i'll tell you why it matters to me: every remastered image he's shared has been, at best, as good as the original, and at worst, worse than the original. if the dev is busting his ass for a remaster that everyone dislikes, the dev's motivation will evaporate and this game will be abandoned. thats bad and i dont want that to happen, but discussing its likelihood is valid and appropriate for this forum

You keep making random ass assumptions. The movie director cares because that's his job and his success if defined by the audience liking the movie and he wants to see his critics like his work.

This is NOT a job for the dev bro. He does not care if you like or dislike something. It actually does not affect him at all. If he likes how it came out thats all that matters to him. He's just sharing with us what he's working on. If this was something he was relying on for income then obviously criticism is important so that he can cater to the audience's preferences. However, the audience in this situation is him. Not us.

In the end you're getting salty cause you care. Which I understand so I won't drag you too hard. But take a breath and let the blood flow back up your body to your brain. Chill on comparing this side little project a dude works on whenever he has free time after a long day of work to a movie that someone puts all their blood sweat and tears into all day

 

[WhiteFireDaemon]

I suppose that's an optimistic take, but surely you'd concede that posting diaries/updates at regular updates then switching your press release style right near what was the original release goal is bound to cause some eyebrows to go up, right?

In other words, I'd expect it to go more like:

Dev Diary #2 - May 10
Dev Diary #3 - May 24
Dev Diary #4 - June 10
Dev Diary #5 - June 23
Dev Diary #6 - July 7
Devi Diary #7 - August 4
Dev Diary #8 - August 11: "This is why it's not complete and my current progress and what I have left to do."
Dev Diary #9 - August 21: "Updated version of this why it's not complete and my current progress and what I have left to do."
Dev Diary #10 - August 27: "Updated version of this why it's not complete and my current progress and what I have left to do."

I think people are rightfully supicious whenever a dev is behind schedule and posts ANYTHING but their current state of work, be it teaser screens, promos, etc.

Don't move the goal post. This whole thing started with a bunch of trolls raiding this thread telling unsuspecting fans that the dev has gone completely silent and that the update has been pushed back another 3-6 months and it'll probably be abandoned. I don't care if the updates are consistent or not, I'm just sick of the people harassing this thread with BS and the mods doing nothing about it because they don't give a crap to make rules against deliberate trolling.

I've consistently said that if people want to criticize Tori's method of communicating or update regularity, then fair enough. My only problem is with people deliberately spreading lies in what could only be perceived as an attempt to cause drama.

 

[elMeno88]

You keep making random ass assumptions. The movie director cares because that's his job and his success if defined by the audience liking the movie and he wants to see his critics like his work.

This is NOT a job for the dev bro. He does not care if you like or dislike something. It actually does not affect him at all. If he likes how it came out thats all that matters to him. He's just sharing with us what he's working on. If this was something he was relying on for income then obviously criticism is important so that he can cater to the audience's preferences. However, the audience in this situation is him. Not us.

In the end you're getting salty cause you care. Which I understand so I won't drag you too hard. But take a breath and let the blood flow back up your body to your brain. Chill on comparing this side little project a dude works on whenever he has free time after a long day of work to a movie that someone puts all their blood sweat and tears into all day

But he is not wrong at all!

It might be the first, second or even his third side job but only one thing is sure, Tori is making money on this game

And as the site grahpatreon says, it is a lot of money so he has to deliver, or at least to explain correctly why the update is not coming out.

Everybody need to stop overprotecting him because this time (only this time) he hasn’t been able to communicate correctly. And also I agree with the fact that many did not like the new version of the visuals he worked on (me included) and that if this is the main reason for the delay

here is the earning Tori should make (only from patreon, so I guess you should count also another sum from itch.io).
So now please stop with the “he is doing this game for passion” narrative, since he is actually earning a lot from this game.

 

[elMeno88]

Don't move the goal post. This whole thing started with a bunch of trolls raiding this thread telling unsuspecting fans that the dev has gone completely silent and that the update has been pushed back another 3-6 months and it'll probably be abandoned. I don't care if the updates are consistent or not, I'm just sick of the people harassing this thread with BS and the mods doing nothing about it because they don't give a crap to make rules against deliberate trolling.

I've consistently said that if people want to criticize Tori's method of communicating or update regularity, then fair enough. My only problem is with people deliberately spreading lies in what could only be perceived as an attempt to cause drama.

COMPLETELY agree about it.

 

[idkmanerally]

He does not care if you like or dislike something. It actually does not affect him at all. If he likes how it came out thats all that matters to him. He's just sharing with us what he's working on.

if this is true, why do you treat defending him like your full time job? if the dev doesn't care that i think the remaster is gonna be bad, why on earth do YOU care so much?

i'm just sharing my thoughts on a forum designed for sharing thoughts

 

[Torimiata]

I was unsure about posting, but I wanted to share a few thoughts before diving back into development. This is gonna be a long one.

I post bi-weekly updates and communicate regularly on Discord. Some are asking for answers I don't have or that could cause confusion.

I shared this on Discord:

In hindsight, the countdown post may have set unrealistic expectations. Reviewing a single complex scene can take 10+ work hours to finalize (expressions, poses, consistency, re-dos, etc.). This is true for both old content and new content. The hours add up quickly and my time is limited.

Some here understand the development process. The last stretch feels slow, there's a reason this quote exists: "The first 90 percent of the work accounts for 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent accounts for the other 90 percent."

======

Thanks to those who pointed out this. The countdown post was accurate but these last 10 percent obviously feel very long and I miscommunicated the expectations. That's on me. I messed up the comms given the complexity of the update.

Predicting doom over the remaster is quite an assumption though. With new mature tooling and story/character changes, a remaster was inevitable. Best to do it now rather than when the game is twice as large. (I don't know of any games still using the older models due to their limitations)

I've always understood if someone cancels their support, even during 0.3.x release. Attacks on this front are misguided. I can't speed up release or change direction this late, and I have no interest in annoying supporters. This is the only solace I can offer. I will not rush out the release like I did for 0.5.0. I will release when I feel it's ready.

Support when you can, and know that your feedback is valued whether you're currently subscribing or not.

I don't like to talk about earnings but you brought it up. Patreon earnings can fluctuate month-to-month and are not guaranteed. You are looking at peak Patreon support to draw misguided conclusions.

People's financial situations and living costs vary widely. What seems like "a lot" to one person could be modest or even tight for another. There are other projects that I could take that are way more lucrative, but this project is about something I wanted to do. Don't get me wrong though. The money is a great support that helps me keep grinding but I made it clear it's not the main motivation by now. Never was.

I know some may not see the value in my decisions, but it feels right for the project and I'm happy with how it's coming out. My focus now is completing the update. For those staying, your patience is appreciated and I'm truly grateful.

As a final note - until 1.0, changes are part of the creative process. This rework aligns aesthetics and fills narrative gaps. Dramatically changed scenes weren't bad previously, they just needed to fit in. It's a one-time process that will actually speed up future development.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

I was unsure about posting, but I wanted to share a few thoughts before diving back into development. This is gonna be a long one.

I post bi-weekly updates and communicate regularly on Discord. Some are asking for answers I don't have or that could cause confusion.

I shared this on Discord:

In hindsight, the countdown post may have set unrealistic expectations. Reviewing a single complex scene can take 10+ work hours to finalize (expressions, poses, consistency, re-dos, etc.). This is true for both old content and new content. The hours add up quickly and my time is limited.

Some here understand the development process. The last stretch feels slow, there's a reason this quote exists: "The first 90 percent of the work accounts for 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent accounts for the other 90 percent."

======

Thanks to those who pointed out this. The countdown post was accurate but these last 10 percent obviously feel very long and I miscommunicated the expectations. That's on me. I messed up the comms given the complexity of the update.

Predicting doom over the remaster is quite an assumption though. With new mature tooling and story/character changes, a remaster was inevitable. Best to do it now rather than when the game is twice as large. (I don't know of any games still using the older models due to their limitations)

I've always understood if someone cancels their support, even during 0.3.x release. Attacks on this front are misguided. I can't speed up release or change direction this late, and I have no interest in annoying supporters. This is the only solace I can offer. I will not rush out the release like I did for 0.5.0. I will release when I feel it's ready.

Support when you can, and know that your feedback is valued whether you're currently subscribing or not.

I don't like to talk about earnings but you brought it up. Patreon earnings can fluctuate month-to-month and are not guaranteed. You are looking at peak Patreon support to draw misguided conclusions.

People's financial situations and living costs vary widely. What seems like "a lot" to one person could be modest or even tight for another. There are other projects that I could take that are way more lucrative, but this project is about something I wanted to do. Don't get me wrong though. The money is a great support that helps me keep grinding but I made it clear it's not the main motivation by now. Never was.

I know some may not see the value in my decisions, but it feels right for the project and I'm happy with how it's coming out. My focus now is completing the update. For those staying, your patience is appreciated and I'm truly grateful.

As a final note - until 1.0, changes are part of the creative process. This rework aligns aesthetics and fills narrative gaps. Dramatically changed scenes weren't bad previously, they just needed to fit in. It's a one-time process that will actually speed up future development.

I'm not a patron, so you owe me nothing. However, this is a game I certainly could see myself being a patron of if this style didn't seem the norm.

Don't spend 5 paragraphs saying blah blah in corporate speak, just tell people what they want to know. You're behind on a release, fine, no biggy, it happens. What drives me up a wall (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) is when devs obfuscate and put out these mealy-mouthed communiques.

Just speak plainly. Report things like "I've completely 8/10 script days for the update, I have renders/artwork done for 7, need to write 2 more script days and make the art for 3." Simple.

If that's the style you use when speaking directly to your patrons, then I sincerely apologize for this criticism, but usually f95 posts mirror what's said there to a partial degree.

 

[Faptimebitch]

If it was me I would've waited until after the update to go back and remaster old scenes

 

[Orthenos]

I was unsure about posting, but I wanted to share a few thoughts before diving back into development. This is gonna be a long one.

I post bi-weekly updates and communicate regularly on Discord. Some are asking for answers I don't have or that could cause confusion.

I shared this on Discord:

In hindsight, the countdown post may have set unrealistic expectations. Reviewing a single complex scene can take 10+ work hours to finalize (expressions, poses, consistency, re-dos, etc.). This is true for both old content and new content. The hours add up quickly and my time is limited.

Some here understand the development process. The last stretch feels slow, there's a reason this quote exists: "The first 90 percent of the work accounts for 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent accounts for the other 90 percent."

======

Thanks to those who pointed out this. The countdown post was accurate but these last 10 percent obviously feel very long and I miscommunicated the expectations. That's on me. I messed up the comms given the complexity of the update.

Predicting doom over the remaster is quite an assumption though. With new mature tooling and story/character changes, a remaster was inevitable. Best to do it now rather than when the game is twice as large. (I don't know of any games still using the older models due to their limitations)

I've always understood if someone cancels their support, even during 0.3.x release. Attacks on this front are misguided. I can't speed up release or change direction this late, and I have no interest in annoying supporters. This is the only solace I can offer. I will not rush out the release like I did for 0.5.0. I will release when I feel it's ready.

Support when you can, and know that your feedback is valued whether you're currently subscribing or not.

I don't like to talk about earnings but you brought it up. Patreon earnings can fluctuate month-to-month and are not guaranteed. You are looking at peak Patreon support to draw misguided conclusions.

People's financial situations and living costs vary widely. What seems like "a lot" to one person could be modest or even tight for another. There are other projects that I could take that are way more lucrative, but this project is about something I wanted to do. Don't get me wrong though. The money is a great support that helps me keep grinding but I made it clear it's not the main motivation by now. Never was.

I know some may not see the value in my decisions, but it feels right for the project and I'm happy with how it's coming out. My focus now is completing the update. For those staying, your patience is appreciated and I'm truly grateful.

As a final note - until 1.0, changes are part of the creative process. This rework aligns aesthetics and fills narrative gaps. Dramatically changed scenes weren't bad previously, they just needed to fit in. It's a one-time process that will actually speed up future development.

Remasters and extending delays will be seen as the beginning of the end by some people no matter what you tell them. It's not really your fault, it's just that people have seen that pattern play out countless times on this site. Shitty devs who really do just milk patrons as long as possible ruin it for everyone else, unfortunately.

 

[redshiftasdfasdf]

"The first 90 percent of the work accounts for 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent accounts for the other 90 percent."

i think you accidentally mistyped.
"the first 90% takes 10% of the time and the last 10% takes 90% of the time"

 

[jclosed]

i think you accidentally mistyped.
"the first 90% takes 10% of the time and the last 10% takes 90% of the time"

And do not forget Murphy's law, that predicts that a catastrophic game (or software) breaking bug occurs a few minutes before the intended launch time, and will take hours, day's or even weeks to resolve. Yeah - Been there too...

 

[slackster]

i think you accidentally mistyped.
"the first 90% takes 10% of the time and the last 10% takes 90% of the time"

Just look at the What a Legend bug-squashing timeline 18 months and counting to squash the bugs in just 1 update.....

 

[kogahaya]

People talking a lot about the remaster, i don't see the comparison, but i don't think he will do a remaster if the art become worst instead of better aniway.

 

[SDaddy666]

I was unsure about posting, but I wanted to share a few thoughts before diving back into development. This is gonna be a long one.

I post bi-weekly updates and communicate regularly on Discord. Some are asking for answers I don't have or that could cause confusion.

I shared this on Discord:

In hindsight, the countdown post may have set unrealistic expectations. Reviewing a single complex scene can take 10+ work hours to finalize (expressions, poses, consistency, re-dos, etc.). This is true for both old content and new content. The hours add up quickly and my time is limited.

Some here understand the development process. The last stretch feels slow, there's a reason this quote exists: "The first 90 percent of the work accounts for 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent accounts for the other 90 percent."

======

Thanks to those who pointed out this. The countdown post was accurate but these last 10 percent obviously feel very long and I miscommunicated the expectations. That's on me. I messed up the comms given the complexity of the update.

Predicting doom over the remaster is quite an assumption though. With new mature tooling and story/character changes, a remaster was inevitable. Best to do it now rather than when the game is twice as large. (I don't know of any games still using the older models due to their limitations)

I've always understood if someone cancels their support, even during 0.3.x release. Attacks on this front are misguided. I can't speed up release or change direction this late, and I have no interest in annoying supporters. This is the only solace I can offer. I will not rush out the release like I did for 0.5.0. I will release when I feel it's ready.

Support when you can, and know that your feedback is valued whether you're currently subscribing or not.

I don't like to talk about earnings but you brought it up. Patreon earnings can fluctuate month-to-month and are not guaranteed. You are looking at peak Patreon support to draw misguided conclusions.

People's financial situations and living costs vary widely. What seems like "a lot" to one person could be modest or even tight for another. There are other projects that I could take that are way more lucrative, but this project is about something I wanted to do. Don't get me wrong though. The money is a great support that helps me keep grinding but I made it clear it's not the main motivation by now. Never was.

I know some may not see the value in my decisions, but it feels right for the project and I'm happy with how it's coming out. My focus now is completing the update. For those staying, your patience is appreciated and I'm truly grateful.

As a final note - until 1.0, changes are part of the creative process. This rework aligns aesthetics and fills narrative gaps. Dramatically changed scenes weren't bad previously, they just needed to fit in. It's a one-time process that will actually speed up future development.

thanks for clarifying.
One thing i didn't realize is that I have zero clue how AI CG works but I know tools are evolving quite fast atm. I know understand the remaster problematic better

 

[Unique sky]

update?

 

[bkubbe]

Can you share the pictures in the last shared diary?

 

[mok135]

As someone had predicted in ancient times, still using the word maybe, this update will be released in October, and still the Dev makes promises upon promises, without any facts.

Do you never get tired of this, Alyss? Do something else with your life. Plant a tree or something. Touch grass. Anything else but this brainrot. I understand that you are a veteran hater of Tori at this point, but you can always find some other occupation, like actual work maybe. Then you will be finally able to get out of your mother's basement. Best wishes to you.

 

[moonhowler1972]

Because I have to work, I don't need money luckily for me, I don't hate anyone, but charlatans get on my nerves, my time is nobody's business, enjoy his empty words anyway.

This fucking walking echo chamber talking about empty words? Oh the irony.

 

[DrThundercock]

Looks like Tori has chosen the tease queen path. Is life imitating art too much?

Release shenanigans aside I'm suprised we don't have much/any fan art yet, unless I've missed it. A lot of other AI/AI assisted game threads have some heroic coomer who can't resist figuring out how to replicate the styles.