Daz Characters max for a scene with subdivision

[coffeeaddicted]

How to condensate that in few lines. If the goal is to make a VN, don't asphyxiate or cripple your Daz with HD morphs for your every shots. You want it to be as fast and responsive as possible.

Before using any HD morphs, you need to understand how Daz skins are made.

When an artist scult his mesh, he scults all details on a high poly mesh (following Daz gen 8 specification in this case, so base mesh is ~16k polys and subD4 ~4,2M). Most (98%) Daz skins are sculted at SubD4, because it's the sweet spot (not too low for details, not too high for wasted polys in a Daz context).

Now he made his mesh but it's 4,2M polys. He got two choices (and Daz offers him to sell both, as they eat on both) :
- Sell his mesh as is. It's what Daz call "HD morph".
- Bake Normal maps for a lower SuBD mesh using

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.

You will notice that no HD figure material use Normal maps. And for good reason, as Normal maps are baked using high polys mesh (his SubD 4 mesh) and only used on the same mesh but at lower SubD (as it would be redundant if not).

View attachment 4519721

See for Sydney 8 vs. Sydney 8 HD. :
(To remove limits on Normals map->Parameter setting->Untick "use limits")

View attachment 4519752
View attachment 4519755

In a VN context, if your a beginner and don't know what to choose between a SubD4 mesh (HD morphs) and the same lower mesh with Normal maps, the answer is always the latter. Doesn't mean SubD4 mesh/HD morphs has no use but its fairly limited (within Daz) and must serve a purpose.

Sorry for the delay.

Yes, that is something i need to contemplate.

Consideration a) i like the skin as it gives the vibe i am looking for with minimal work. I don't use the figure itself but used other morphs to craft my personal character.
b) i (usually) go by 3 and this is because i am lazy.
The one thing i still didn't get is, do i need to have HD, at all? For a close up, perhaps. Though my aim isn't really to loose myself in details. My philosophy is rather the story itself but the viewer should get it how old the character is with some wrinkles. So in that context, 2 maybe better.
c) damn prices.
d) my eyes are bad. Could you tell me what the difference is between these two images? I can't see them.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

In that example the OP posted, the hair was completely hiding the head.

The point I was making was choose your SubD level wisely. Why waste the resources on SubD 4 for a full body render from 15 feet away? Or for a render where no there's no visible skin?



The OP should check his log file immediately after one of these render attempts fails. DAZ will list an error if the VRAM ran out. And that (in my experience) is the most common cause for renders just stopping with no other fault indications. My second most common cause is those new Omni Shaders used for hair in 4.20+ ... I still run into the occasional hair asset that wasn't patched to fix this shader issue and that will cause DAZ to fail hard.




True, but 4.22 and 4.23 are much better at releasing the memory than any previous versions I have used (I started with 4.16 iirc)

Just an example, but I have been running complicated image series for animations this last couple of weeks. The only time I had a series stall out was after working with DAZ for 8+ hours straight and then starting the render queue without rebooting. It got to frame 118 before the VRAM maxed out and the rendering just stopped. I checked my task manager and saw 16GB used. So I just rebooted DAZ and that VRAM dropped to ~6-7GB.

But I did over a dozen image series since, each with 240+ frames at 1080p and not a single one had a memory issue. And I am using the default Batch Render tool built into Daz so it doesn't do any reboots like ManFriday's Render Queue used to do.

DAZ is still buggy as always, but they did improve the memory leaks very much in the last couple of updates.

I have to explain my philosophy for doing what i am doing.

I like to a somewhat real approach but want it quick. So for all renders i am using an Iray Cam.
Plus, i don't like most apartment or house assets since they are mostly not what i envision for a story. So i go for something older that i can take apart.

For this example i use the Small Room Kit.

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I think it is a good asset with a lot of potentials for modifying.



cheap scene, sure.

However i have to re-render this one with just 1/2 sub on the figure without HD and check if there are any differences. This would make it more cost effective and less pain, perhaps.

You probably can tell, that even after all this time, i am still a noob.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

View attachment 4519752
View attachment 4519755

In a VN context, if your a beginner and don't know what to choose between a SubD4 mesh (HD morphs) and the same lower mesh with Normal maps, the answer is always the latter. Doesn't mean SubD4 mesh/HD morphs has no use but its fairly limited (within Daz) and must serve a purpose.

Have to say, yes this works.
Something learned. So HD in my case at least, isn't needed as i can get the effect with normals.
Though, i switched to Catharina as she has nice skin as well. Ignoring the HD on that figure. Saves also money as the figure is way less expensive than Sydney.
Though i noticed when i raise the map, it will have weird spots on the body. They are there all the time but come more pronounced when you raise the number for the map.



It looks really weird. Not sure if that is a skin problem or skin vs. body figure. I don't use Sydney body.
Something else i don't understand.

Still, this was still a win as i can drop HD morphs and just play with normal's.

Thanks

 

[BlenderGuy]

If I may butt in, I have a Mac Mini with no GPU and what I tend to do is create the illusion of a set environment.
When you consider an image will show such a tiny portion of assets then perhaps you could construct corners and standard wall backdrops. Add some furniture and paraphernalia related to the environment.

For me, scenes with clutter tend to direct attention away from the main point of attention.

SickleYield offers a bunch of primitives where you can use an open box to represent three walls. This provides plenty of options for lighting etc. Just apply shaders to make whichever walls you want.

It's so light on resources I can usually work with the viewport in Iray if I wanted to, even if i have a couple of G9's loaded.

I appreciate this can't always cater to scenes where you want to establish a sense of location ie a shop with a busy street outside. But it's perfect for indoor scenes.

 

[no_more_name]

Have to say, yes this works.
Something learned. So HD in my case at least, isn't needed as i can get the effect with normals.
Though, i switched to Catharina as she has nice skin as well. Ignoring the HD on that figure. Saves also money as the figure is way less expensive than Sydney.
Though i noticed when i raise the map, it will have weird spots on the body. They are there all the time but come more pronounced when you raise the number for the map.

It looks really weird. Not sure if that is a skin problem or skin vs. body figure. I don't use Sydney body.
Something else i don't understand.

Still, this was still a win as i can drop HD morphs and just play with normal's.

Thanks

In theory you shouldn't fiddle with Normal value: Normal maps baked from the high polys mesh are used on lower SuBDx mesh intented for it, end of story. In practice it helps to navigate through different SuBD without giving up on details. It especially comes handy while dealing with high number of polys.

If you load Sydney 8 in to Daz, you will see that figure comes at SubD 2 level by default. It means that Normal maps has been baked for a SubD 2 mesh.


Subdvision Level = SubD level used by the viewport.
Render SubD Level (minimum ) = SubD level used when you hit render button.

With that in mind, you can follow this rule of thumb for Normal map value:
If you *decrease* SubD by 1, you multiply Normal value by 2.
If you *increase* SubD by 1, you divide Normal value by 2.
If Normal maps are well baked, it should be consistant:



Note that you could also still use the HD morph on lower SuBD level to further accentuate details but with diminish return. The lower SubD level of the mesh, the lower HD morph will have any effect. You should also use the same Normal map value across the skin figure (arms, ears, face, lips, torso etc...) to avoid any seams.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

In theory you shouldn't fiddle with Normal value: Normal maps baked from the high polys mesh are used on lower SuBDx mesh intented for it, end of story. In practice it helps to navigate through different SuBD without giving up on details. It especially comes handy while dealing with high number of polys.

If you load Sydney 8 in to Daz, you will see that figure comes at SubD 2 level by default. It means that Normal maps has been baked for a SubD 2 mesh.

View attachment 4581042
Subdvision Level = SubD level used by the viewport.
Render SubD Level (minimum ) = SubD level used when you hit render button.

With that in mind, you can follow this rule of thumb for Normal map value:
If you *decrease* SubD by 1, you multiply Normal value by 2.
If you *increase* SubD by 1, you divide Normal value by 2.
If Normal maps are well baked, it should be consistant:

View attachment 4581091

Note that you could also still use the HD morph on lower SuBD level to further accentuate details but with diminish return. The lower SubD level of the mesh, the lower HD morph will have any effect. You should also use the same Normal map value across the skin figure (arms, ears, face, lips, torso etc...) to avoid any seams.

This makes more sense.
Though i wonder if i was lazy and it is written somewhere on DAZ.

For my project, well not really a project, i switched to Catharina HD.
https://f95zone.to/threads/catherina-hd-for-genesis-8-female.150178/
Her skin looks more like what i was looking for. Though i don't use the HD morph on her but instead go with normals.

I still have to refine the character. I opted to morph my own character and not use premade morphs (whole character).
Probably will never make a VN but it is a great experience to know how to do things.
In the end it is for my own enjoyment.

You know so much, i probably never will reach anywhere near of your knowledge.
Thank you for explaining it in so much details.
I think what i take from it is, that you really need to play with the surface tab more to get better results. Out of the box it is not a super experience.

Thanks again for taken time to do this.

Here is my sloppy job of a render with the character skin i was describing.

p.s. btw. are there differences in HD? Why is Sydney so expensive but i can get a 3th party character with HD for $20 Dollars? Another question i am unable to answer myself. lol