[DISCUSSION] Better Map Design by Avoiding Logic? (Sci-Fi/Space Ship)

Saki_Sliz

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May 3, 2018
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I'm posting this to hopefully be a fun discussion around both map designing, and game world designing, and not really expecting a solid answer to any particular question. Also positing this in the dev help subform since the main programming/dev area seems to be saturated with in progress game development threads.

The project: Text-based sci-fi (adventure?) game that focuses on a particular erotic roleplay I see a lot, featuring girls on a ship/space station that gets overrunned/infected by space creatures/monsters. Gameplay mainly involves sneaking around the station, treating it like its a dungeon or something because I'm inspired by games like Trap Quest and Degrees of Lewdity. While working on a simple mock up of the space station/ship, I noticed that the map is much more interesting the more "non sensible" the design is.

I don't really have much to show, I wasn't planning on making a serious presentation so I haven't made a proper collection of mock-up art, and I mostly noticed the issue when I try to look at table top maps made for other games. That, and I'm keep things as simple as possible, doing the bare minimum so that I can move fast and stay interested.
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The above image is one design I am playing with that I currently like, as you can see the mock up is very simple right now, Two large nodes or rooms, 5 smaller nodes/rooms, and some corridors. Hopefully you also notice that the image is very rough, because there's a lot of empty space.
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This section is an example of filling up some of that empty space, this one showing off how big some living quarters may be, and for a sense of scale the hallways/corridors are large, 7 feet wide (mainly designed so I can make art showing a hallway with several bodies strewed across the floor), with the dark hallway (maintenance area?) about half that width in-between two rooms. The red/blue pattern represents each unique "node" a character can be at (this is a text based adventure, so the world is handled in terms of points of interest). The idea is plan out big areas, then the major connecting halls, then fill the space with smaller less significant rooms, and then fill the space with imaginary maintenance shafts and ventilation ducts for characters or creatures to sneak around in. As you may also notice, I am designing the halls rather arbitrarily, adding bends and intersections where ever.

What do I mean when I say the map is more interesting the more "non sensible" it is?

First: The halls.
If I were to design a real ship or station, if it was so large that it actually needed halls to manage a flow of people, then a better design would probably something similar to how cities work (imagine the game City Skylines), where we treat roads like blood vessels.
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For example, if the above is an outline for a spaceship, with the front/main-bridge at the top of the image, then the center spine of the ship can be thought of as the main highway, the main artery, that all other 'sub-halls' connect to, or at least that's my intuition. If you've ever played city skylines or ever had to work on flow optimization problems, you know there's more than one way to go about designing flow solutions. on the left side, the sub halls follow a pattern, you may even say that it looks like a leaf. If I kept adding sub halls and eventually smaller and smaller rooms/areas/halls/corridors, and if I got rid of the odd angle and made the system more grid like, the design would follow like city grid layouts, were major roads break out into streets, which allow rows of house to be placed one after another, eventually making a block pattern. The halls would be like the veins of a leaf, breaking out into smaller paths to distribute water/crew-members

Alternatively on the right side, halls can connected into a nexus point so rather than having one main hall congested with a lot of traffic. Much of the traffic (crew members walking the main hallway) is often unrelated traffic, meaning each person is moving to a unique location, with there being no common flow. IE crew member fred could be sneaking off to tiffiny's room while pilot james is running late to his shift at the helm, and has to push his way through the crowded main hall. having Nexus points allows unrelated traffic cross other un related traffic, allowing the briefest interaction between the two. The benefit of this is that halls can stop being 'general' halls for general traffic, and instead be 'specific' halls for specific traffic, and specific traffic often tends to be related traffic all often needing to go to the same area.

While the above mock up doesn't show a good example of using nexus points and grouping traffic flow by traffic type, the station idea sort of implements the concept, and a good example is something we are all familiar with, the Captains Quarter. The captain's quarter is often directly connected to the bridge, and that is because if there is an emergency, the captain can quickly go where they are needed, and even if its not an emergency, because of their job, they typically need to go back and forth between being on the bridge and being in their office, so making a dedicated connection for this is an example of designing a traffic route for a particular kind of traffic type. Similarly, the idea with the space station is the lower large node could be engineering, with the idea being to fill the empty space leading to engineering with living quarters for the engineering team, so that they are close to where they need to be, and since engineering traffic typically doesn't need to access the main monitoring/control room in the center, there is no need to directly connect engineering to the center node, even though the two are pretty close to each other physically.

The main problems with halls is the fact that I want this to be a sneaking games, with opportunities to hide and opportunities to run into surprises. A sensible hall tries to be as simple as possible, getting people to their destination with the least amount of work and hassle. The issue with this is that it tends to lead to straight hallways, as in the ship mock up. The problem with straight hallways is that for a game that wants to take advantage of sneaking game mechanics, hallways leave characters pretty exposed to anything else in the hallway, so a characters have to be careful when they decide to use hallways, there's no where to hide. If you need to get to the far end of a ship, you need to take the main corridor (if there is one), once there, that is pretty much the most exposed placed to be, as something all the way at the end of the hall may notice you. And if it does... well you can probably hide and outrun it since its so far away... meaning the problem can be escaped, but for an adult game where interacting with things is the most interesting part, I want to trigger encounters, not just force the player to run away all the time.
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In the above example, I place a random Z bend. Even though the corridor is curved which limits how far something can see around the bend and notice the player/character, the game play would pretty much be limited to being spotted at a distance and trying to run away. But with each bend, not being able to see what's around the corner, several opportunities for surprise interactions become available. The simplest of which is, checking around a corner before proceeding down to the next corner. And with there being two corners, after passing the first corner, it is no longer possible to check behind yourself, so someone or something that isn't sneaking could catch up to the player, and with them spotting the character at such a short distance, it could catch the player. Example: in the middle short section, the player could be in one of the red squares checking around the corner while remaining hidden, meanwhile they won't be spotted by the security guard that's following them until that guard enters the blue corner and can see down the short hall section and spot them.

The second thing with non sensible halls is I think they are a lot more visually interesting and complex than a perfectly planned hall layout. I think the best mindset to have when making non-sensible layouts is to bullshit like you know nothing but it looks cool. What I mean by that is.... I'm an engineer, I tend to have a better technical understanding of how things work or should work. A lot of the time in games and stories, creators try to introduce something technical even though they don't have a proper technical understanding of things. So you get things like simplified hacking gameplay, or really cool gadgets that simply aren't practical to make. But the point is, 1 its still cool, and 2 its good enough. With past projects, I've agonized trying to over develop ideas, making them both practical, but still usable for non technical users (example making a more accurate hackings game mechanic or something), and after repeating this mistake several times, I've finally conceded that realism and accuracy isn't worth it since it typically goes over everyone's head, it doesn't make the experience any better, and focusing on what you want is more important. So add all the blinking lights you want! Hence this was my approach for doing these halls, and the original idea behind posting this thread. Be random first, make it cool and make sense later, or at least go through a cycle, prioritizing fun an cool over practicality.

Second: Grid based Maps
In my mock up of the station, I played with curved halls rather than straight halls, to break away from typical grid layouts, such as what table top games typically use. The main reason for this is actually the polar opposite the issue with halls. Another way to describe designing halls and its issues is to describe the "choice paralyses" problem. Choice Paralyses is a phenomenon where, when given too many options and nothing to guide you to an answer, people become unable to make a choice. A common example is the blank canvas problem in design, if you are given a blank canvas, meaning if you are allowed to make anything you want without limitation, you have infinite possibilities, but you have no idea what you want to do. Because of this, there is another concept related to the topic, "constraints equals creativity." While often some of the most creative designs in games arise due to developers having to work around some pretty serious constraints, that's not entirely what I mean. At a basic level, if you are given a blank canvas, but then you are given certain constraints or limitations on what you can do, you can use these constraints as your initial guide on planning what you want to do, and its up to do to fill the gap. Often in design, this means making decisions which act as additional constraints, so you can narrow the problem to something more specific that you can actually fill. In the case of planning hallways, by first planning out important rooms first, and then filling in the remaining space with less important rooms, I can focus on what I can solve, and leave what I can't solve yet to be solved later later. planning out hallways in terms of solving a flow problem is to limit myself to using halls when I could instead use a grid of rooms directly connected to each other, like with houses.

Basically using hallways, or the issue of planning hallways has to deal with the issue that I'm trying to solve a problem that starts too vague, and I need to give myself some constraints in order to limit my possibilities, reduce the choice paralyses effect, and eventually make something.

On the other end of the problem however is starting with a grid, and trying to plan out a space ship/station from the bottom up. The issue with this is now I'm starting too detailed, which makes it hard to abstract and see the bigger picture. The best example of this is again the problem with being an engineer and getting caught up in the details. If you can work with grids, then you are technically working with placing every individual wall. If you are work with walls, and you want to make an ship/station with secret maintenance shafts and vent ducts, then you have to consider how to fit in these features while also trying to figure out the whole ship. Basically you have to figure out everything in one shot, you're trying to do too much at one time, trying to make too many decisions at a time. I'm basically saying one needs to go back and forth between being detailed and being considerate, and needing to be general and get a basic idea down to give your self a basic outline you can use as a sort of constraint. Naturally people do this already making a basic sketch before jumping in
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on a side note, regarding planning out maintenance shafts and vents, one reason I say I could add them as "imaginary" as I describe in the intro, is if I don't use a gride and just have a basic outline of rooms, I can do what Degrees of Lewdity does for its sewers, where there are access points, but I don't really have to worry about the shafts running into physical boundaries simply because they exist on another layer or plane separate from the floor plan. I however am not sure how I want to go about this as I want some maintenance shafts to be in the walls, next to walk ways, and even going under some halls with gridded floors or hatches to peak through or be seen through. This means I don't want to treat the maintenance shafts as perfectly issolated from the rest of the ship/station's floor plan, and I infact want to force players to use the halways sometimes simply because its the most exposed and dangerous part of the ship.

The second issue I have with grid based mapes is I hate them. They encourage optimal design, which in a space ship and home makes sense, but I think it looks terrible, boring.
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art not by me, just randomly pulled from the internet
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The main issue is that I want to make a ship/station feel large. Specifically I want to incite the feeling that the ship/station is grand , such that the idea of having travel through the ship/station be an intimidating and daunting task, sort of like trying to reach each major point in the Ishimura in the game Dead Space. The art for these ships are good, but they don't offer that intimidating vibe I'm looking for, and it mostly hast to deal with their sense of scale and space. I want to make the ship seem large and intimidating, I however, want to do this without filling the ship/station with too much detail, I don't want to fill it with a thousand rooms for a thousand families, each one being insignificant simply because there is so many. The brain simplifies information where possible, and if you have a thousand rooms to make, and have a grid based system, you are probably going to group these rooms into a grid pattern. This not only makes things not interesting, but with using a grid system, force to design efficiently, it makes the ship small, and gives viewers a sense of scale which is something I want to break and avoid.

as with my two mock ups, a station and a ship
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I can fit the ship into the same space, I'll just have to fill the space between halls with lots of rooms and possibly sub halls, but at the end of the day it will feel like a ship because it looks like a ship, while with the station, even though in comparison it will probably be tiny, not even a station more like an outpost, if I can make the map look broken up like a series of connected modules rather than a perfectly planed floor plan for a house, I can give the illusion of the station being larger and than it actually, and that is partly helped by having the hallways be rather eratic like the major roads in a city that was design only after people made their own small roads. Again, this is a case of bull shitting the design because its good enough, the effect is more important than being accurate.

Some counter points to this are:
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on a smaller scale, room size or so, grid based design is ok because we aren't looking at the big picture, we are focused on a room, and a grid layout keeps it clean and readable as well as practical, I think the above looks quite nice, and I may do something similar for each major node/room.
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I've always liked round design simply because they look interesting, even interior camera shots look interesting simply because the curve of the design prevents viewers from seeing the full length of the hall, prevents viewers from seeing the full scope of the interior, thus every camera shot is limited to a small space and being unable to see the whole space means the mind is left to imagine the rest where we often make the illusion of how grand a ship is even if the design is as simple as the above design, much smaller then the other ships I showed off. Another thing that makes this interesting is you can see that the design is not efficient, walls are not perfectly thin and next to each other, and they have a lot of shape variation. back in the 50's we learned that round designs aren't practical for homes, square corners are easier to work with and place furniture, but its still visually interesting.
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an example from some early ideas are these more detailed modular based designs, where I add in details which make the ship more visually interesting than it really is. Showing each individual bulkhead, showing that bulk heads are slotted into each module frame as if this were something being made in real life and designed for ease of manufacturing, showing where lights, warning lights, and red emergency lights would be placed, I even added structs and cables assuming the space between modules inside the ship is empty space, and whether a beam or cable is used was based on actual stress simulation of how the modules could be solidly connected at minimal cost while leaving maintenance space. However, this still has the issue that the ship even at its starting phase won't be very grand, even the one true hallway is very basic and short. Hence I just start with a larger vauge map and avoid a grid system until I want to show of individual rooms or something.

Anyways, I just wanted to share this because it was fun and interesting, though I don't know if much of this will apply to other people's projects since my needs are a bit unique.
 

Saki_Sliz

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Great read.

Who doesn't? For real.
Thanks! I wish I was more active like I used to be, but as fun as discussions around game ideas are, I found that they tend not to go anywere, so I thought I would try something different, work on projects first (in private) and then make posts if I have something interesting to share. Though actually getting enough work done worth sharing is a challenge in itself.
 

Deleted member 1121028

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Thanks! I wish I was more active like I used to be, but as fun as discussions around game ideas are, I found that they tend not to go anywere, so I thought I would try something different, work on projects first (in private) and then make posts if I have something interesting to share. Though actually getting enough work done worth sharing is a challenge in itself.
People don't know the OG o/
Chuckled more than once while reading it (as I, too, try to make more complex prototype).
Who turn into complete disaster but that's another story lmao.
Cool to see you again.
 
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anne O'nymous

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Interesting take, but I'll address one point that bother me.

If I were to design a real ship or station, if it was so large that it actually needed halls to manage a flow of people, then a better design would probably something similar to how cities work (imagine the game City Skylines), where we treat roads like blood vessels.
But you aren't designing something real. Even more in your case, since you aren't designing something that rely (too much) on the visual, you don't need to design something that looks real enough.

I don't remember where I had found it, but I once read a paper/study explaining how architecture design in literature was generally a big mess totally impracticable, when not totally impossible. Not that authors are idiots, but they focus more on the effect it have on the reader, and the opportunities it open for the story, than on the realism.
For a Visual Novel I would be less affirmative, because players would see it ; it would be ridiculous to have the main station corridor and see that you can't feet more two persons side by side. But in your case you can perfectly assume that "everything is large enough", since it will only be seen on the map.


I'm also tempted to say that the same apply for the rooms location.

Take the Captain quarters you talked about.
Yes, having them so they lead right to the bridge feel logical. But in the same time, there's always on officer on duty on the bridge. He's supposed to be competent and able to handle any situation ; else he wouldn't be at this position. Plus, the Captain have a life. He's sometime eating, sometime sleeping, sometime showering, etc. In short, he isn't always ready to pop out of his quarter the instant something happen. Worse, he isn't necessarily in his quarters. If, by example, there's an issue with the cargo, he will move to the cargo bay to take a look by himself.
Here, we are in fact lured by literature, and even more movies. If the Captain is needed on the bridge, it will always be at a moment where he's available. This unless the story need some extra dramatic effect, in which case it will happen at the worse possible moment.

But in reality, if the ship is under attack, the Captain will not goes on the bridge naked, and half covered in soap, because he was in the middle of his shower. This while the officer on charge at this moment will not wait for the captain to be on the bridge before he, at least, raise the shield and try some escape moves. If it's a situation that only the Captain can deal with, then it's something diplomatic, what mean that there's no emergency ; "sorry, the Captain is unavailable right now, can you wait a minute please ?"
Therefore, if you put the Captain quarters at 30 meters from the bridge, it's a 18 seconds peaceful walk. Something totally bearable. Put it at 100 meters, and it become a 20 seconds short run, what also stay bearable.

From my point of view, this kind of design is due before anything else to a crowd efficiency.
If the Captain is needed on the bridge, there's possibly an emergency. And if there's an emergency, you'll probably see people running to their post. It's then that proximity become an important factor. Not because it lower the distance, but because it lower the number of persons you'll have to cross and that could possibly slowdown the Captain.
But this apply to actual ships, where you've to put the maximum persons on the minimal possible space ; therefore where the corridors are just large enough for two persons to cross, yet generally if one stop. Should this constraint also apply to you ? You are on a Sci-Fi environment, and in space, you don't depend on a streamlined shape. This mean that you can take more freedom regarding the location of the rooms, this by having larger corridors.
Move this on the Army instead of the Navy. The General quarters are rarely aside the war room. The emergency is not less high if a Battalion of his army is facing an attack, yet he will need more time to respond, relying in between on the officers that are directly on the field. This exactly like your Captain can rely on the officer that is on bridge duty at this moment.

And it can be extended to your engineers. If the problem is so important that every second count, then there's someone who was sleeping on duty, and he's probably also deaf because he haven't heard the alarms.
Once again, here the proximity come from the lack of space. Put larger corridors, and it doesn't matter if the rest of the staff need few minutes to come.


From my point of view, and once again it have to be weighted when the game is more visual, what matters the most is the coherence and readability of the map.
By example, if having the Captain Quarters touch the bridge create a bump in your map, whatever how realist it can be, it will be particularly ridiculous. Same if it create an unbalanced map, with the quarters on one side, and a big void on the other. And of course, having the Captain quarters somewhere else than near others quarters or the bridge would also be ridiculous, in top of being confusing for the players.

You also shouldn't forget that time is something relative on a game, unless it's in real time of course. The Captain will be called on the bridge, and next thing the player will know is that the Captain is now on the bridge.
I doubt that you'll find many players complaining because it happened after a 2 seconds transition while, due to the location of the room, the Captain should have took 3 minutes to come. Especially since, your game not being visual, there will be no transition.

Make the map that feel rights to you, and that works well with your story, this whatever as weird as it can looks, and it should works fine.
 
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Saki_Sliz

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anne O'nymous you make some good points! And the obvious answer is it always depends on each person's unique situation.

Regarding my need to make a map in the first place. I mentioned the Blank Canvas issue, aka the problem of having too much freedom which results it not knowing what to do, with constraints and limitations often providing inspiration. The project being a sort of text based adventure game means that my blank canvas is figuring out interesting situations that could happen. Just staring the project this past week means I have all the possibility but nothing to guide me. So of course I try to have some ideas and some note, describing characters I would like, monsters or situations, and possible story ideas or game mechanics. But these notes are still a nonsensible mess of ideas. If this was a visual novel, I wouldn't need to go into details about the halls because they mostly get skipped, other than turning left or right when navigating a sort of point and click adventure world. The main issue however is that this is a text based adventure game, which means players will be navigating a virtual space (think trap quest, navigating a dungeon one room at a time.) I don't plan on forcing the player to navigate the hall one node at a time, that would be rather boring, but I do need to set up a virtual environment because I do need to represent locations using code (ie each node of a hall could become more and more cluttered with webs or smoke, which affect AI perception. While this may be a lot more work than needed, its just how I contruct my code, because the point of the project is actually to excersize in representing a world with interactable modifiable nodes that can be used for a future generic roleplaying game I want to make. Making a map in this case is me setting myself a physical limitation on my blank canvas for mapping out how the virtual world will be physically, so I know how to 'code' the virtual world, as well as help give me story ideas, ie trying to make a map with features such as a maitenance shaft that goes under the floor, but a grid floor so those above can see through the floor, not only does that introduce an oportunity to be caught, but player can actually take advantage of this if its a 'node' that they can intentionally visit again in the future, it won't just be locked to one story point like with visual novels.

If you read that block of text, I mentioned I didn't want to force the player to have to travel the hallways one node at a time (except maybe the first time exploring). While I say its a text-based adventure, I have no intention of actually developing a text parser for commands like in the old days of text adventure. Id like to keep things simple, such as having a mini map. this is specifically inspired by Degrees of lewdity, which while is a Twine game and started with hyperlinks to all locations, it eventually got a minimap that is clickable. So the idea is that after mapping out areas, future travel is kept simple. ie if you need to get from one end of the ship to the other, click the destination on the minimap and the code will begin auto transversal, and you can set how cautious the character moves. The idea is to allow for certain scenarios that take advantage of a system of "reactivity." Basically the player and other AI's are able to react to the environment, notice changes in the environment and react to things happening around them, but characters may not always notice these things, or react to them in time. for example, at a T intersection in a hall, if the player navigates the hall at normal speed, they are walking with confidence, and as such they are not as Catious, so they may not notice the sound of distant steps and walk past a guard who spots them down the hall. This triggers the game to automatically generate its own stories, ie if the player is trying to get to engineering, and they used the minimap and the player has become too comfortable, it will start the auto transversal operation, but once a guard is alerted, the game start to 'narrate' what happens, ie describing how the guard spots them, describe that the player didn't notice them (reactivity was not high enough, thus the game does not prompt for player input yet) and continues to describe how the guard catches up to the intersection, before chasing after the player, loud running is enough to catch the player attention, so the game describe's the player character reaction, and asks for player input (ties to hide in a maintanaince shaft or something). Again, this is just because of how I'm going about the project, where this sci-fi adventure is actually me limiting myself to a smaller project, where the bigger project is developing a roleplaying game an AI that automatically do the job of a DM.

Regarding the captains quarters, you touch on a lot of subjects.
Captains Quarter does not always equal Captain's bedroom/living quarters, despite the fact that Quarter kind of means the same thing. As you mention, various things can affect the design of a captains quarter, such as only being close to the bride simply because the ship is small and needs to put it somewhere. The kind of ship or station also affects the captains quarter, as different ships have different needs. IRL a destroy has a pretty minimal captains quarter, because the ship doesn't really need a captains quarter, it won't waist the limited space it as (that and just how the frame/bulkheads are layout out), and its mainly a typical bunk room, just with only for the captain and a desk. This is because a destroy is one of the more basic ships, a small ship meant to protect a fleet from missiles or similar. On an Aircraft carrier however, the flag ship of a fleet, the captains quarters are rather spacious rooms, furnished, and acts more like a conference room. What makes it a 'captain's quarter' and not a simple 'confrence room' is its meant to receive important people. Stations don't have quarter, they are almost always just 'offices.' most captain quarters I see in fiction for large ships/stations treat teh quarters or office as separate from the living quarters. I would say, regarding your concern about the subject, while you make some fair points, captains quarters aren't always as they are depicted in literature and media, I decided to simply follow the "trope" simply because making a sci-fi game mimicking with the goal of recreating sci-fi roleplays is all about capturing the tropes of the genre! :D Not to mention, If I'm not following the trope, any easy and readily available idea/solution, that means I'm dealing with the blank canvas problem again where I have to figure out an original idea out of nothing. Boo! I want to be lazy!

You point out how insignificant transversal time is, even bring up the only concerned being crowd efficiency (not a term I had used, but basically what I meant regarding nexus point and dealing with generic traffic vs specific traffic). Story wise, it isn't significant, you are right, unless the writers want to leverage it for a story, ie everone assume the captain is in his room not knowing he got teleported to some cross over naruto fan fiction before the the damage is done. However, in my unique case, a text based adventure game, transversal time is important, as its related to how many nodes connect a character from point A to point B simply because my project works on calculating interactios, even hidden interactions, just like with Trap Quest or Skyrim, NPC's are able to do things off screen, this makes the world feel more alive. The more nodes a character needs to get through, the more variables could affect them, and right now I don't want to worry about developing an AI that has to calculate risks. I just want to keep the code as simple as possible... even if it sound complicated already :p

Lastly regarding visuals. Again unique to each person's case, while a lot of my excuses coming from the idea of making the ship/station transversable due to wanting to replicate a Text-based adventure like feel/UI, but this other exscuse comes from my bad habit as an engineer where I want to plan for 'possible' future issues that. What actually inspired this project was I'm working on art for my main project, but getting a bit burned out and I want to get back to working on code, but I can't work on code until I complete my assets, so I wanted to work on something simpler, and while exploring for motivation or inspiration I came across Manreign [v0.5] [MercuryDev] which had this image

and I really liked how the background image was very simple, not too detailed, not the focus, not too distracting and added ambiance. And its a text adventure, which I've always wanted to make, so I said, why not, get some practice making a node based world environment and play around with making AI. By having a map, I can have ideas for what sort of images to make... if I bother going that far, but I did make this mock up in unity (my code is already made in C# and I haven't a clue about making/converting the same behavior to twine or html, so I'll stick to unity).
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as you can see its just a quick youtube screen shot of a star citizen gameplay, testing out pixilation and other filters, trying to be as quick and dirty as possible to keep the project simple where it doesn't mater yet to keep motivation high. Just enough for me to play with code, which is my main focus. The map just makes it so that if i do make art, then in this senario, I could make a basic 3D mock up to plan out background art for, but thats if I get that far and if I decide to do art, I won't have to redo work because the initial work failed to take into consideration how things may look at a basic level of competency.
 
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Synx

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One aspect i'm a bit missing in your essay, and map design in most games in general, is growth. Your whole essay is based on the fact the whole ship/station is made in one go. It's completely designed from scratch (the Blank paper), and realized exactly how it was planned. It's the easiest form to create something new yes, but like you say a blank paper often means you go back to the basics/efficient design layouts like a grid.

But this doesn't have to be the case. There is this tv show called the Expanse which is about the power struggle of 3 different nations in space; Earth, Mars, and the Belt. The ships and space stations of the first two are roughly what you describe; clean, efficient designed, straight forward.

The latter isn't. It's a faction naturally grown from worker outposts, increasing trade, and somewhat isolation from the other two factions. Small outposts grew over time with more workers showing up, requiring housing, etc. Their ships are mostly captured or salvaged earthen/martian ships, often refurbished to a different function. The result is that all their outposts and ships look a lot messier. Which makes sense, since they didn't start with a blank slate. They had to take in account existing (Infra)structures and obstacles, in general a lack of proper planning for the future, and a much more rushed development. A corridor could have a weird twist in the middle since it was just easier going around an existing part than going through it and remaking the destroyed part somewhere ells. Housing section can have small corriders between compartments since they were much more focused on getting housing for everyone than planning it as efficient as possible. Mix in not relegated growth (somebody changing a pod designed as an house to a shop), and you can pretty much design whatever layout you want and create a backstory that support why it looks so crooked.
 

anne O'nymous

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The project being a sort of text based adventure game means that my blank canvas is figuring out interesting situations that could happen. [...] I don't plan on forcing the player to navigate the hall one node at a time, that would be rather boring, [...]
As it's started to be done; in most text based games, the instant terminals weren't anymore limited to text.

Having a map permit to speed up travels, passing from the original, "go North, go North, go West", to, "go to room 5", then, when pointing devices appeared, to a click on the right room. It also tend to increase the variety in game. Not because there's more locations, but because having a visual representation of the whole place help to remember what can possibly be done. What is more difficult when the sole immediate knowledge you have of the world is the direction you can pick right now.
It's probably less true nowadays, but to some extend your map can perfectly limits to lines. It wouldn't be different from the map the players were drawing when games were purely textual.


Making a map in this case is me setting myself a physical limitation on my blank canvas for mapping out how the virtual world will be physically, [...]
Is it really a limitation ?

You talked about the grid representation, but isn't it a legacy that come right from the purely textual games ?
At this time you were limited by :
  1. The need for a global reference.
    It's the reason why most, if not all, purely textual games rely on cardinal points.
    Imagine a room with four doors, one on each wall. Describing them using the player as reference would be confusing. You'll take the door on you left, then when you'll go back on the room, all doors location have shifted.
    When you rely on cardinal points, the door on the West wall will always be the same. This whatever from where you entered the room.
    What lead all room to be axed relatively to the North. You'll not start to describing a room shifted 15° East, and then talk about a North-East to South-East wall. It will be the East wall and your room point to the North.
  2. The need to describe the room.
    You can't give it a too complex shape, else the player will have difficulties to visualize it, and you'll have a hard time to place the furniture in it.
    After two meters, the North wall shift at 45° to the North for the last five meters. The wall on the East is 7 meters concave arc, but its center is a 3 meter plan part. STOP ! Wait, what ? Can you repeat please ?
  3. The need to place the doors.
    Imagine a fully circular room. There's three doors on the North, and two on the East, but where the North wall finish, and where the East one starts ?
  4. The fact that the player will try to draw a map.
    And for this he will probably rely on a grid to keep some constancy to his drawing.

Then, based on those limitations, as well as the visual limitation of those times, the first visual representation have keep this grid structure, that started to become the norm.

But once you've a map, who care how complex is the room ?
If the player don't understand your description, he can rely on its shape as shown by the map. As for the fully circular room, there's no need to know where the North wall finish, since the player can simply click on the location he want to visit next.
And of course, you don't need to place your room in such what that you'll have a North wall.
What also mean that you aren't limited to the usual four walls, it can perfectly be a dodecagon (is this an English word ? It have twelve walls). You would struggle to describe it wall by wall, in order to place the doors, but the map mean that you just need to place the furniture.

So, from my point of view having a visual map offer you more freedom, not more limitations.
 

Saki_Sliz

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Synx it sounds like your describing maps that's more... natural, analog, allowed to be rough. That's certainly a good consideration, especially if you want to make a more natural environment. Naturally, its up to what you want to achieve, what you are willing to put time into, and what may or may not be technically easy to achieve. depending on what you want to achieve can describe both how you want the map to visually look (style, quality, etc), and what you want players to be able to do with the map (pending technical challenges).

With your example of the Expanse (I still need to watch that show at some point), I was getting the mental image that the way such a map could be designed is to start out with a few pre designed ships layouts, cutting them apart as if to depict ships that have been torn in half or something, and if you wanted to make it look 'analog' and not follow a grid, rather than copy past the 'tiles' or walls that make each ship, instead copy and paste (with rotations) just the visual map, such as in photoshop, where you can also paint and fill the gaps (pending artistic capability?). I know the moment you try to make something look not grid like, if you are using a grid in game, it gets hard. but if you are not making a dnd like experience than its easy to ignore the grid and photoshop something else together. I would tend to use UI buttons to act as points of interest on the map (ie maybe a character symbol for a interactive character that stays at a bar).

I would find artistic freedom to be my main challenge. I've made high quality dnd maps in the past before, but a map for the quality l like, I like to know if a floor is wood by being able to see a bit of the grain in the wood (I do 2x2 foot grid squars for player movement), a simple manor ended up being an 8k image, and we tried playing using my iPad, and the image took up soo much memory (had a shadow/fog of war layer, layer for just the walls, layer for character art, layer for notes), that this was the limit of how large the map could be, how many interactive layers it could have. I suck at shading, so my art isn't more than just textures, I'd like to use tilesets, but I'm such a stickler on art that I can barely use tilesets because there's not enough of any one art style to keep consistant, and when it comes to editing the maps (photoshopping in gaps) i can't match their art style/skill. but that's just one possible way of going about map making. maybe you are thinknig something more like an atlas, or something more black and white retro style.

my point is, since you brought up the suggestion of scenarios where maps need to be more natural, more analog, thats all good and can be done many ways, so long as the project isn't critically relying on a tile based game mechanic such as with rpg maker, but other than that specific scenario, more analog maps are doable, that and adding in a less grid system makes map much more visually interesting, I think that's why I was leaning more towards a round space station design for my project. As for your example, a map that instead of being wholy planned, but instead has a bit of history and arose naturally, I feel like that could be its own science that one could get really deep into if they wanted too (I know theres a huge atlas making community (uses geology to determine what geological features tend to lead to certain resource availability, ie certain mountain range = ancient swamp location = where coal can be found) though not the same as the dnd map making community or 'insert table top game name' community).

But once you've a map, who care how complex is the room ?
...
having a visual map offer you more freedom, not more limitations.
yep, a good outline of the technical limitations of the text based format. I could be an amazing writer, but if this is an adult game I may not be able to expect players to read a 5 page essay describing the room. using a combination of some visual and some elements, I can take advantage of the strength of each to cover the short coming of the other. Perhaps describing map making as 'limiting' myself isn't the best phrasing, rather it transforms the problem into a different sort of problem which may be easier to manage, my be a more objective way of describing what's happening.

In my case, 'manifesting' an actual world/setting that I can use to reference is easier than me generating random ideas. where one door closes, another opens, having a map may mean I limit myself to a 'defined' design and thus may not have as much freedom to get away with winging story ideas (ie like how the new star wars movie broke canon by ignoring limitations that had been previously set in the lore), but as you point out offers new type of freedom in that describing rooms need not be as complex.

Perhaps this touches on another aspect more general to game making. Know both your limits, know what you are willing to invest time exploring more to expand your limits, knowing how much effort/time you are willing to invest, and knowing work arounds for known short comings.

Say for example my short coming is art, so I would design a game that requires minimal art, or I would invest some time to figure out what level of art is good enough (ie I suck at shading, I can play around with shading for days, but I can make a clean cartoon character in about 6 hours, and considering I want to do a hybrid comic/noir for my main project, which requires lots of panels, speed may be more important if the art is passible). Another example, I may not have thought a pixel art background was anything special until I saw somebody else use it, felt its effect first hand, thus I can use it to enhance the experience or complement the work (my main idea would be, image of a hall, one version light, not lit, and one version with red lights to indicate an emergency, simple stuff). And as you point out Anne, a third example being that I can use art to quickly and clearly communicate the essentials where using just words may have fallen short, or my ability to use words effectively may still be lacking.
 

UncleAi

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Apr 24, 2022
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To make a ship/station feel large, you can:
1. Put it with other things(other ship/human/planet) to make a comparison. And use camera angle to help.
2. Just say "the length is 2000 meter" "this is the biggest ship human ever build" "this is a capital ship/flag ship"

In real world captain room is on bridge because: 1. Better view 2. Sun and wind is cozy.
In space age the captain probably in a well protected room in the center of the ship, using screens and VR/AR/MR equip to command.

But all in all you don't have to be limited by science or logic.

1670553128637.png
 
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Saki_Sliz

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UncleAi Funny you should post such images, I was just looking at similar stuff.

I actually been playing around with assets I could get from the unity Asset store, things like kits and modular game levels to use as game assets. I've been playing around with exporting to blender so I can make interesting renders, working more like how Anne mentioned

Not that authors are idiots, but they focus more on the effect it have on the reader, and the opportunities it open for the story, than on the realism.
since I was inspired by the ambiance effect the art had in Manreign, the art for this project/game focuses on this background ambience rather than on grand renders (though TBD if I'll do scene renders, I'm more of a character focused artist than scene artist). I even went as far as making a fake pixel art effect since I want to focus on the art being ambience and not so much art to be studied.

I found sticking to my original size and dimensions for things like the hall didn't really look the best when it came time to make renders. The long hallways that I wanted, while matching real life buildings, didn't feel/look like a creepy long hallway. I played around with lens focus length to make the hall seem longer/farther than it was, but this pushed all the details to the center of the screen, and when I threw the images into my mock up UI, it sucked because with the game being more text adventure like, the center is where the text goes. I ended up settling on a more cinematic/photogenic 40mm focal length and then just making the hallway longer. I also added a curve to the hallway to make it creepier, limiting haw far players could see so that if something does show up (alien monster xeno mr bad guy), even though its an open hallway the player should be suprised and feel trapped. (the curve also matches the fact that I plan for the station to be round and so ith alway looks like it belongs

Well lit 'long' hallway (focal length 40mm)
1670561193355.png
hallways that are long with few connections don't really make structural sense, nor are they people friendly, and I don't have the attention span to plan out a ship/station in detail to actually fill in all the space that would actually fit hallways as long as this (imagine the above but requiring 10 moves before reaching the end of the hallway). But I think it highlights the three main points I want the art to achieve: it 1 represents a hallway, 2 indicates the type of hallway (long), and it indicates the state (well lit and clean). I'll just take advantage that my Pixel Art mini map allows some ambiguity and allow the players to assume that the art is only a representation, and won't be accurate. I'll reuse the same background image for long halways unless the state changes, or the player is near a junction/end point.

other examples
1670560640837.png
"the end" we can see the hall ends, but the player is still in the 'safe' part of the hall

1670562006145.png
"Death" this was just toying with focal length, I think 85mm, but it makes it look like we are right at the end of the hall, just before the monster shows up.

Now moving under the floor to the maitenance shaft
1670562140631.png
This one I feel looks good, it makes the space feel tight/intimate, and the crawl space long (focal length 10mm)
However, when I threw it into the mock up game, this was mostly lost because the main text and UI tend to take up the center where the image is focused, so it lost the feeling
1670562324282.png
The same scene but focal length at 50
the illusion of length is gone, now its easy to tell that this section of hall is only as long as a simple room
However, the middle of the image is more of a dead space, not as important, not the focus, and when I throw the image into the mock up UI its works better as a lot of the contextual information needed to perceive the ambience is closer to the out side part of the image (the outer side of the image not covered up by UI). I also like that its easier to tell that we are able to see light leaking through the floor grate down into the crawl space. makes it feel more like a creepy prison.

TBD if I'll work on the outside. for now I just need to get more assets and clean them up for blender and make a few mock hallways, scene lights, rooms, etc.
 

UncleAi

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Apr 24, 2022
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Yeah, after learning DAZ I understand you don't have to be real-real. Your eyes lie to you. Your brain lie to you. 90% player won't stare at your render 30 second looking for noise. In real life a candle is actually pretty dark. But if you set like that you will ruin the scene. So I have to use ghost light to cheat. Vibe is the real important thing.