[Discussion] Design/Writing Question about Victory Speed

[Saki_Sliz]

A question for those who have tried to write, design, or in my case, study NSFW game design for fun, how do you like/prefere to balance you game in terms of victory speed. Victory Speed is just a term I am making up on the spot.

I have been reading a few threads, reading people’s concerns and complaints about how some people make games and write them, and I made an observation that I wanted to check.

for my made up idea of Victory speed, Victory is not refering to the completion of the game, I don’t want it to be a question about how long the story or the game is. When I think of most NSFW games, it seems that one major aspect that most games and players have in common is that a good amount of the fun some NSFW games can have is just the interactions between characters. Now I am not talking about good dialog, I mean... Some people want the story to be romantic, some people want to be the hero of the story, some people want to win the girl, some people prefer other people with certain personalities (say for example, getting the one goth girl in the house/club/etc to finally like you and open up to you. etc). Much of the time, it seems the fantacy is not so much about the sex itself, most don’t like just straight up fapping games, but instead, most people really care about how the victory is achieved.

If there are multiple characters you can ‘do’ with in the scope of the game, I am defining a victory to be unique to each character you can ‘do’, and victory speed being the time between meeting a unique character, and the first time doing the same unique character.

Mainly, the concern I see can be found in this thread

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, with the comment by lancelotdulak, talking/complaining about how some writers/designers “seem to be .. freaks.. who've never actually touched a woman”. The commentor lancelotdulak is neither wrong or right. To summerize the comment, lancelotdulak makes the assuption that what they think is a good story is something more realistic. Realism is always a safe default, since we all find it intuitive since we live it day to day. Being Realistic (via writing or game mechanics) is a good way to make a game more comforting to players. But that does not mean stylizing, simplification, and exageration are bad. They are their own tools and skills that can greatly impact and benifit a game if well used, eithier making a message clear, making something better to under stand, help make each character unique, etc.

The reason I am asking both Writers and Designers is because it seems many people on other threads seem to forget what a designer is, They’re more than just the ideas guy. While most writers tend to aim for realistic and believable stories and situation, writers do also know how to stylize and exagerate a bit to make characters seem interesting, an example being “Character Alignment Sheets” a tool used to simplify characters into easy to focus on behavior patterns. Writers do a bit of design work themselves, if not most of the time if they are the only one working on a project. Designers do not just say, what is going to happen in the long term, but must figure out what must be sacraficed in order to make the game. I hate reading, so when I want to design a game, I want it to be visual based, intuitive, and or simple, with characters that you can understand at a glance (such as the characters from Mythic Manor for example), I choose to sacrifice dialog and elaborate story telling. Some people want their game to appeal to a wide range of fetishes, which results in choosing to sacrifice specilizing on doing one fetish really good.

Victory speed is really a question for designers, and is typically the most important question around how one designs their game, but I don’t think anyone has ever stopped to consider the range of victory speeds and how that relates to the type of game you are making. Well most people have, but this is not really a well known idea unlike Character Alignment Sheets which you can find online or easily memorize. I wanted to ask, what do you guys prefer to play or design. One major concern some writers have is that in some games with what they consider to be poor writing, the game is basically a rape fantacy. Not to say or make the assumption that such games are inherantly bad, or are poorly writen, assuming you aint going to reenact the game. But here is what I noticed, If you are runing into the limitation of time, the time between meeting a character and doing them (say for example a 2d platformer game where all the monsters fuck your brains out, that is very short), when there is less story, less room/time for a character to give concent (or give it in a way that we believe the character is truly giving concent), then we believe we percieve an act of rape. So down below I listed out what I think is the general spetrum of possible Victory speeds.

• 0 Instant: There is no possible story, the moment you met resulted in fucking. Typical of say, running into an enemy in a game who is going to fuck you, be it a platformer with monster girls, the end of the world survival game with super horny girls running around, etc. Typically the characters themselves have no significance, no personal story, you just live in a fucked up world. Minimal need for writing if not none.
• 1 MVP: Minimal Viable Product. There may or may not be an attempt to try and make a story. There can be a back story to the character, an attempt at dialog, or maybe even you needed to get an item for them before they let you fuck them, anything that can be percievied as doin something to encorage a character to give concent. While still typically seen an rape very often, now there is an oportunity to give concent and avoid the issue. Assuming you don’t have a game full of enemies who just run around trying to rape you, most games that have spent very little time in writing end up here, there is an attempt of a story, and thats about it. Maybe groping leads to sex, a quest completion leads to sex, or you run into a drunk secretary but for the most part you don’t really know the character. This takes a skilled designer to pull this off, because often this is area is dictated speed wise by how the game mechanics work. Such as a point and click game to rpg to allow you to do want you need to get to the victory, assumen very little dialog is wanted.
• 2 Fantasy: This is the starting point of when someone actually tries to have a story, where players are able to get an idea of the character. I call this point Fantasy because at this point there is still not too much, there may be dialog, but not a ton. When you don’t have a ton of dialog, you do not have room for a deep and complex character full of contradictions, so as a result, with what few words you do have to say, you must make good use of them. So what tends to happen is it may seem that the characters are simple, 2d, flat, and to at least make them seem unique, what ends up happening is you must exaggerate, such as a really shy girl, mean punk girl, etc. and when you have few words to use, with no time to show off how complex a character can be (maybe you find the goth girl has a soft spot for cuddles idk) , what ends up happening is your subtle exaggeration is even further exaggerated due to the lack of other matterial to contrast with. Typically in stories with not a ton of character development, what ends up happening is each character tends to embody a particular type of fantacy, be it a shy school girl, a milf, etc. Hence I call this level of Victory time the Fantasy level, because the fantasy is exaggerated. It takes a skill writer to pull this off, simplicity may sound simple, but from what I have studied and tested, it is a skill on it’s own which often is a prerequesent to exaggeration which is the real skill you want so you can effectively communicate.
• 3 Real: With more time, you can write more. When you have room to write more, you have room to write more than what is needed for the fantasy and sex, you can explore the character more, try to make them more realistic, have the player take their time so the game doesn’t seem like it only cares about getting you laid. This seems to be where everyone wants to be, and what everyone feel comfortable starting with. But this is also where the amount of art assets starts to really make the game difficult to make, just because you start to run out of steam before you can get a lot done. This may be the limit of a one man team if you are going to do all you own art (such as with daz and using repy or something)
• 4 Hyper-Realistic: I think at this point, we are at a writers wet dream (a wirter who really wants to be a good writer). Where it seems like the game maker has a fetish for very realistic story. It may not be the story so much, but maybe one character in particular that the writer wants to focus on and bring to life. This is where you have to take the time to earn the trust of a character, solve some condridictions they have, etc. This is very much about the character, not so much about the sex, and if the game maker wants to do this for multiple characters, you are either looking at a visual novel, Text Based games, or someone’s life’s work.
• 5 Saga: This can be two things, and really it may be it’s own sepreate thing not on this list. Rather than a long story, this describes multiple stories. You can get a saga if say, it takes multiple storylines that are interconnected to be completed before being abel to progress with other storylines. Or, this can be the case when you can still have sex and storylines with a character after you first have sex with them. But at this point I can no longer organize or find a patern in how such stories are constructed beyond this.

Besides wondering what the general community tends to prefer, I was wondering what you guys thought of my Victory speed idea, or how do you interpret it. Is it useful, do you see some assumption I am making and would prefer to break it down further, some way to make this a nice neat graphic tool like a character alignment sheet, do you have enough experience that you have your own way of looking at this and my summary of an idea is just confising, etc, I just wanted to start a discussion, since most people like to hear themselves talking, myself included

 

[vnAdult]

I think some players don't have the time or energy to read a type 5 story. Often they might be looking for a type 0-2 and if they like the game hope it turns into a 3 at most.

As devs making games for fun I believe we want every game to turn into a 5 but we often loose interest before 0.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Hmm... I agree with your observation about players. I myself am not a reader and don’t look for a game to get lost in, I look for an interesting fun game, which has to gain my attention as soon as possible. Perhaps making a game that starts at a low number and works up to 3 would be an interesting idea, not sure how that would work, but I have been playing with ideas of making a sandbox world or non narrated or procedurally generated world mode that can be played alternatively to the story mode. Tho sometimes it also seems not all players like having to choose, they or rather me, just want to get into the fun game as fast as possible, which is like how you mention players look for type 0-2.

Ha yeah, every dev wants a 5, and every partner I pair up with want to release a game using an episodic style to milk the patreon system.

 

[79flavors]

I think if you story only had a MC and a love interest, then your options a limited.
I'm not a writer. It's so far out of my comfort zone - I'm not really sure if I'm qualified to write here.

But it strikes me that you can have a mix of your story types in one game.
The biggest issue with "saga" level stories seems to be that the "average" player isn't going to want to invest that sort of time into a game without there being some sort of payoff. But the reality is that the brain is the biggest sexual organ we have. The more foreplay (both literal and figurative), the better the reward. So the longer the story and the harder it is to win over the player's love interest... the better the game overall.

But to draw upon other styles of games for inspiration... you don't just have one big boss battle at the end of the game... you have lots of mini-boss battles before then too.

In terms of porn games... there's no reason why your MC couldn't already have a boyfriend/girlfriend at the very beginning of the game that's giving you oral or having sex in version 0.1 of your game. Maybe there's that girl/guy at the office that you've been flirting with, but nothing actually happened yet. But they aren't your goal... they are just ways to keep the story-type-0 players interested, while the MC embarks on their epic quest to win over the unobtainable nerd/cheerleader next door.

Write out an outline for a story-type-4/5. There's your main love interest.
Then write "side quests" for story-type-1/2 characters you bang along the way.
It's a bit of an overused style, but there's reason it works. Writing a singular story is satisfying, but often not what players ask for. Writing a complex branching story can be hugely rewarding if done right... but it's rarely done right. But writing a singular story, with occasional temporary diversions that don't impact things long term is a nice compromise for a starter game by someone who can deliver on the writing.

I guess the other aspect is how experienced you see yourself as a dev. It's always going to be to simpler to deliver a story-type-1 level game than a level 5. Better you gain experience slowly and gain a reputation as someone who finishes what they started - than just another of the many devs who stretched themselves too thin and never finished their game.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Of course you are qualified, so long as you have a thought to share. I call my self some one who studies game making, which is just litteraly me sitting here with an opinion, nothing more, I just try to practice good critical thinking (such as trying to see where assuptions are made, and not inherantly trying to believe any one thing) as well as practic what I preach and make a game (and actually publish one eventually XD ).

@79flavors
Correct, a mix is possible, not only in phases, but in terms of side characters, and main characters. I agree, some people do tend to critisize a game for just giving sex, believing that players should earn it instead to make it that much more rewarding.

I myself am not really a fan of having a friend with benifits only to get my fix, while at the same time trying to work towards someone else (it doesn’t help that I am usually not attracted to the main target, usually just because of how the writing is done), I don’t know if it is because it feels like cheating or being dishonest or unapreciating of the friend, thats just me.

However, now that you mention the idea of something to provide a Case 0 on the side to keep players interested, I guess I could say there is a -1 Case.

Now that I think about it, I don’t really care about the sex as a player, I am more about interesting art. So say one example would be, checking a wall to find a peep hole enough to see a girl getting dress, or getting naughty, in that case there is no sex with the character, but you as a developer provide a bit of a tease to keep players interested. That is one of the things I want to focus on is teasing the players, hence why I tend to focus on point and click and any other game mechanics that encourage exploration, because that is easy way to privide such oportunities with out it seeming odd or requiring you to meet a story requirment (not that it is wrong to use a story requirement to unlock some aspects of the game). But then there is the issue of being to reuse the art or re activiting it and the surprise getting old.

yes, experience is important aspect, but not a controlling one. You could do a type 0 game, a platformer with monster girls, story wise this is the simplest, but i think the most difficult game to make mostly because of art, since you have to make all the assets for all these characters and game mechanic code. Vs say, a visual novel or text based game where most of the work is writing, which is probably the fastest creativing in the universe, vs art, animation, and programming. But it is not just about game making, a personal preference and philosophy could be important. I prefere to use rhetorical theory and psychology and test with how to make the best user experience possible with minimal work on my part (which usually minimal art, hardly any animation, simple mechanics), just because im a slacker but I want people to think I actually try :3

 

[vnAdult]

Even a type 0 game is hard without a team. There are lots of great tools but finishing a game, even a small one is the hardest part. Patreon games needs to be wip to have people working on them ~fulltime. Even patreon games gets cancelled before stage 0 when the creator loses interest.

 

[79flavors]

I myself am not really a fan of having a friend with benifits only to get my fix, while at the same time trying to work towards someone else

Nope. Me neither.
Not least, because if you want a semi realistic story - it's unlikely that any MC will not only get the girl, but get every girl along the way. Life just isn't like that.
But we're not talking about life... we're talking about a game.

I'm currently replaying

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. It's such a long time since I played it, I'd forgotten everything had happened leading up to the most recent chapters.
Okay, it's a porn game and clearly (based on the title), the point to the game is the daughter. But at this stage of the game... the MC doesn't know that. Instead the MC is coming out of a long term slump by starting a relationship with the owner of the bar down the road - someone he met after deciding he needed to get out a bit. (Alternatively he met Veronica... a patron of the bar while he was there).

My point is that you don't need to write some sort of harem type game. But that it's possible write a game with a long term, slow burn goal... where the player has to tread a careful path to a "happy ending" as a part of an epic saga... Keeping your type-5 players happy... and still have infrequent "successes" for the MC to keep the type-1/2's happy too.
As you say, a friends with benefits is probably lazy writing. Maybe the type-1/2's could be given their fix by having the MC play voyeur to someone's encounter instead. (and this is why I'm not a writer).

The point would be a quick fix for the type-1's while the "main" story plays out for the type-5's. How you deliver that, whilst meeting your own requirements is going to be very much a personal choice and down to the imagination of the writer.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Even a type 0 game is hard without a team. There are lots of great tools but finishing a game, even a small one is the hardest part. Patreon games needs to be wip to have people working on them ~fulltime. Even patreon games gets cancelled before stage 0 when the creator loses interest.

I think they are the most hardest just because the focus is in the game and making assets for the game and its mechanics, which are the two slowest parts about making a game.

@79flavors I want to joke and say ‘if only we knew the secret formula’ to fill in all the knowns we still haven’t figured out about writing and design, but that is kind of the point of this thread, is to see what people have noticed and see if there are any patterns or interesting insites that could help point out a possible golden rule to work by.

 

[vnAdult]

I think they are the most hardest just because the focus is in the game and making assets for the game and its mechanics, which are the two slowest parts about making a game.

A hard part is deciding if you are making an engine or a game. Project doing both turn into neither. But if doing gamedev for fun it won't matter. Then it's not the destination, but the road there that matters.

 

[79flavors]

@79flavors I want to joke and say ‘if only we knew the secret formula’

The secret formula is clearly spend $100mil on your game and add microtransactions later.

As with anything, I don't know the answers.
I've seen games written how I hope they would be... just flop.

I'm sure two developers reading threads like this would just cherry pick different ideas and see different conclusions... which is great... and as you say... kinda of the point of threads like this. Grab a load of ingredients... blend... and hope the end result works.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

microtransactions

Shi dawg u rite ‘(0ヮ0 )

 

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

Perhaps making a game that starts at a low number and works up to 3 would be an interesting idea, not sure how that would work, but I have been playing with ideas of making a sandbox world or non narrated or procedurally generated world mode that can be played alternatively to the story mode. Tho sometimes it also seems not all players like having to choose, they or rather me, just want to get into the fun game as fast as possible, which is like how you mention players look for type 0-2.

Ha yeah, every dev wants a 5, and every partner I pair up with want to release a game using an episodic style to milk the patreon system.

how many games from the 1 and 2 category have you returned to? In my case the number is close to 0. Aim for the 3-5 range, you may not make big money on the first game but you will make a name for yourself and people will want to play more of your games

 

[redknight00]

When you're ready, one does not need to add sex in the first release or even add relief girls. Just don't drag it for year, I strongly belive having your main character having sex with their partner should never be the end game or victory, that's just the beginning of the journey.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

@Kukothemadhatter Great point to make, I have to agree. When there is a more significant story line, it does add to the replay value. But then, why is that, I dare ask? I find any type of game mechanic that encourages exploration and experimentation is also very important for replay value, regardless of the story ark type. Perhaps you have played many games with 3 to 5 type story arks, out of the ones that you have replayed, do you replay them to get the exact same story out of them? Or do you replay to get something different. Getting different results I think is attributed to some underlining choice the game allows you to make that mimics exploration and experimentation, be it choosing to be the nice guy vs the responsible guy, but I argue that not all these mechanics have to relate to story directly. A good example would be text based games, open world games, something like trap quest. In trap quest your explore dungeons filled with people and monsters, get clothes, and try your best not to get turned into a bimbo/sissy (of multiple different styles). The transformation is progressive, depending on how one plays it can be pretty fast with minimal story, but regardless I would say at best it classifies as a 2 type, having only the essentials to explain how you get in your situation, or even less a type 1 for the fights where you loose. I have tried to find other good examples on how exploration can lead to customization and reliability, but I have yet to find anything as good, and it is something I plan to experiment with in the future (but man does it really make a game much more harder to make XD ). So you made a great point!

@redknight00 I see two good points you make, one does not need to be too hasty with adding in sex content, and in some games the story is progressive with the first sex scene only being a building block. Two good points, assuming that the design of the game that one is making benefits from this. Looking over my initial post, I know there are games where the story only begins at the first sexual encounter, but I kinda swept that to the side, called it a type 5 story type, and kinda made it sound like those games don't exist. So thank you for bringing those games back into the light. I myself don't really have a well established opinion on games where the sex you have with a character progresses as the story continues. I don't know what is good to do or not to do, nor have I found that many games that I can remember. In many games it seems like most of the work is just to have that first sex, and then afterwords you can just repeat just to play the scene again, which is boring. I know orange trainer avoids the issue by making the story progress from everything, including sex with the side characters. One of the points of the original post was to see if it could open someone's eyes to try a different way of writing or designing a game. Take me for example, no matter what I do, even when trying to write out the most simplest of tech demos, my writing is trying to be realistically paced, a number 3 ark, because I am trying so hard to avoid a number 0 case where it seems like there is no reason for sex, when really I should be aiming for 2 or even a type 1 story just for the tech demo. If I could get myself into the practice of writing type 1 (which is simple, do a thing, then have sex) or better type 2, I would have an easier time making games (and completing them) since I won't also be demanding a ton of art assets from myself. But then, as you point out, some people prefer games that are less about porn and more about expansive content with a longer slower story line. So I guess one of the side problems that is kind of the underlining of the first post is, I am trying to focus on solving the issue of how some players like my self of too short an attention span for longer story based games, and that kinda influenced the writing of the post.

 

[redknight00]

It's fairly simple actually, you just need a character arc or plot outside of fucking women. A classical example would be Cris route in Majikoi, a confession happens early in her route and sex right after the first conflict point, it's after that the story picks up with the bigger conflicts like a jealous dad and living on their own.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

It's fairly simple actually, you just need a character arc or plot outside of fucking women. A classical example would be Cris route in Majikoi, a confession happens early in her route and sex right after the first conflict point, it's after that the story picks up with the bigger conflicts like a jealous dad and living on their own.

Oh, I think I get what you are saying, there is a beginning, two people become a couple, and then it becomes a story that focuses on life now that they are together, it's not just about them (such as getting use to living together, working together to pay rent), but how other people tend to mesh up what they thought could have been a perfect life (other girls hitting on you, protective parents, high rent). Interesting, I could defiantly see that being a thing and people enjoying it, but I feel that is much more of a writer thing, and I myself am not into creating fictional writing ... (hides my fan fics under the pillow). I'm more interested in experience through visuals and consequences, if that makes sense... man I am doing a lot of self exploration because of this post. XD so i guess thanks for replying!

 

[anne O'nymous]

Despite having read your post two times, I'm still not sure of what you mean by "victory speed". At first, I thought it was something defining the difference between a game like

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(immediate sex), and one like

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(sex when ready to), so the progression pace ; at least it was what your introduction and level 0 seemed to say. Then starting your definition of the level 1, comments included, it seemed to be more on the "story depth" side.

So, I'll stay with the flow, and take it as a story sided scale... then say that it absolutely don't matter.
Adult games aren't like regular ones, it's entertainment (adult content) inside entertainment (game). While we are (apparently) a majority to want our games with a story (preferably a strong one), if what we wanted is the story itself, and/or were ready (at the time we play) to dedicate part of our brain to the story understanding, we would have played a regular game, not an adult one.
But this doesn't mean that the games should fall on the lower part of your scale. A game like

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is, whatever sense you give to it, on the level 4 of your scale. Still it's the most successful game here, with reason. And it's, at least for me, where you forgot an important point on your description of what a designer do.
Game design isn't something frozen, strongly codified that will apply in the same way whatever the context. It's the opposite, it's something flexible that make the link between each components to achieve the best possible result.
@HopesGaming achieved to reach success with his game not because of the depth and complexity of his story, nor because of his progression pace. No, he achieved it because of his amazing writing capabilities. There's tons of text in his game, but not a single second it's something boring. And that's part of what should be take in count when designing a game.
By example, if the writer can keep everything dynamic and living, like HopesGaming do, then the game should be designed to let enough place for the text. If at the opposite the writer isn't great enough, then it's the CG that should take the relay, providing the dynamism by explaining visually what can't be worded ; so many images that change many times, accordingly to the actual context of the story. And if both fail, then it's the pace of the game that must give the dynamism needed to reach success.
Just because it's what the designer do, keeping the game dynamic and living, and so interesting, whatever the effective capabilities of the people making the said game. His job is to hide the weakness of one component behind the strength of the others.

Which lead to the, at least for me, inefficiency of your scale. It can apply to the majority of the actual games, but also exclude many of them. This whatever it's more on the "progression pace" side, or on the "story depth" one, there's games that have no place in it.
By example, take a game like

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. It's immediate sex, so at the level 0. Still, it have an effective story and each character personality have some depth that we discover during the game progression, what make it more on the level 3. Same for games like Akabur's one. It's far to be instant sex, still we can't really say that there's a story or that the character personality isn't flat.
Where do they fall in your scale ? They don't have their place, still they both are games that have they own success. In fact, we can even say that Akabur created a new type of games. One that is now used by many other people ; sometimes with more deep story, sometimes with even less ones.

In the end, at least for me, more than a "victory speed", what matter and should be used to categorize a game is more it's dynamism.
In a way, you said it yourself in your introduction, when saying that you hate reading. Me it's the opposite, I'm a hardcore reader, at least one book/week most of the time. Still there's many games around here that I find boring because they ask me to read a lot.
But it's not the fact that I need to read that is effectively boring, it's what I'm forced to read, and not because it's engrish. These games lack of dynamism, which make the player thought, "oh shit, another dialog session, and what will have I after ? Nothing as usual I guess". And by "nothing", I don't mean the adult content, but the content itself.
These games don't have a slow progression pace, they have too many totally useless parts. In the head of the author they are surely mandatory parts, ones that explain the personality of the characters or what happen in the game. But the problem is in its wording. There's no need to "explain the personality", when you can simply show it ; whatever it's in the dialog, by the way things are said, or in the CG, by the way the characters move/react.
Then, when you remove all the useless explanations, whatever if your game will not have its first kiss before the sixth release. Whatever if there's tons of reading to do. It will be dynamic, so possibly interesting, which also mean that it can be a success. And, yes, it's effectively a problem of design ; things aren't at the place they should be according to everyone capabilities.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

@anne O'nymous Love you take on the conversation!

True, my little outline isn't all encompassing. I know there are many games that void the description one way one another. May that be a testament to how diverse and creative the nsfw community is! If I tried to make the rules perfect, I can imagine it would be like English spelling, full of exceptions and special cases XD. Keeping it simple makes it easy to talk about.

It does seem that this thread has gone down the line of talking about story. Originally my idea was to make this post to talk about what kind of compromises people make or prefer in games, but I left the post a bit vague to see where things go. The cases of 0 and 1 would be simple flash games. Not everyone is a writer or have a partner to help them, and an issue that comes up time and time again would be simple games that basically are just rape games, a topic often disputed. My observation at the time was that when there is less story, the more likely we the viewers would perceive such behavior as rape since no sign of prior consent (an aspect of a possible story) was given. I tend to focus more on the lower end of the scale just because I can't work on larger story driven projects, and I wanted to see where by peers sat.

It seems that most people who have responded have a focus on story rather than the game-mechanic focused games which is what I like to spend time working on and playing with. Perhaps the current situation of this thread is most of the replies are talking about master pieces while I am over here sitting in a corner trying to figure out what compromises I should be making in order to get a game completed before I die of old age XD. The scale was mostly focused on how much story or writing should be sacrificed but the conversation seems to be of another idea. Actually...

Yes that's perfect, maybe my scale shouldn't be about victory speed per-say, but rather, a scale of how much some people dedicate to making a story prior to the majority of their sexual encounter. That might work, but a topic for another time, the current discussion is elsewhere for now.

Ignoring my thinking out loud, I like your focus points! Here is how I summarized what I think I read. You seem to be focused on describing what makes a good game, or a successful game. As you point out, my scale is not effective for that, not that it was over meant to. It wasn't a tool telling people what to do, but rather a tool of 'consider these options and their effects'. Some simpler games can be just as fun as bigger games, it just takes less energy to make simpler games... sometimes. As you point out, it's not the depth or complexity that leads to success, but rather... quality? Seems self explanatory, but I understand what you mean. Focus on your strong points, and do a good job on them, and always keep things interesting, or Dynamic and living as you call it.

Something complex like a brothel management game may be interesting to those who like to manage, and dull to those who want a story or to see interesting porn. Throwing in some variation (I have seen some management games with simpler mechanics and more of a focus on story and unique characters) such as a varying range of artwork (if any), content type (fetishes), and events (story things), would be as you say, keeping things alive and dynamic (so things never get stale).

Think about it again, doing something like that to a game, like a management game, i guess intrinsically take the attention away from the game mechanics time and time again to keep things interesting. which I guess goes back to my re wording of my scale, which should be more about how much one game maker is willing to dedicate to story (or if a player, how much story dedication do they look for).

You make a good point, there is a difference between a good game and reading it, and a bad game and being forced to read. There has to be some hook to get you interested to pull you through, and it has to be interesting along the way. As you mention, sometimes in the head of the writer the useless parts are mandatory, and that is certainly one skill I am trying to get good at, removing the nonessential, keeping things interesting, but trying to keep it above a 1 (on my scale).

I like your point about "There's no need to "explain the personality", when you can simply show it ; whatever it's in the dialog, by the way things are said, or in the CG, by the way the characters move/react." I think Mythic Manor is a great example. Each character is simple, one dimensional for the most part, and have an single and exaggerated personality (the shy girl, the energy bunny, the milf, etc.), at least when you first meet the characters. Often such a description is a negative thing, but in terms of making the game, doing so makes it easy for players to digest and understand at a quick glance. This is very effective and I find this is a focus point in many animes. Further studying into the subject and how to do it well, however, I believe would start to delve pretty deep into rhetorical theory. Actually, now that you remind me of this, perhaps this is the key I need to get my writing down to a type 2, trying to keep characters to the bare minimum.

As you point out, success all comes down to effective problem solving by both design, and your skill(s) in either, art, code or writing. Thanks for your reply, it really helped me reorganize my thoughts since you took things a different direction, and that's a good thing since I myself didn't really know what I was really wanting to say or talk about.

 

[Tams-Senpai]

Good read, I am actually making a game with one of these definition of your "speed victory" and the other path is the "common" thing. So I separated them with "Love and Lust".

So what I love about these "speed victory" that you are talking about is somehow similar when I played Suikoden 2 (PS1 JRPG) and True Love 95' (hentai).

Though I've read your article quite a few times and this is the only thing that came to mind, the sensation of achievements.

 

[anne O'nymous]

My observation at the time was that when there is less story, the more likely we the viewers would perceive such behavior as rape since no sign of prior consent (an aspect of a possible story) was given.

With the brainwashing variation when it come for corruption games, yes. And it's not necessarily the lack of story the problem, but more the lack of depth for the characters.
"You're a guy, you live with those two beautiful girls, fuck them". It's not a story, but it can works if the said girls have a personality and if we see it change because the MC actions. In a way, the story is self building because of these changes. While the story itself say nothing, in the player mind suddenly appear a, "Yes ! Look at her... 'You know, I feel safe when I'm near to you'... I'm sure that this time I can ask her to stay for the night".
So, something at the opposite of the average corruption game, where what's in the player head looks more like, "She gave me a handjob, I guess that I'll have a Blowjob next time".

It seems that most people who have responded have a focus on story rather than the game-mechanic focused games which is what I like to spend time working on and playing with. Perhaps the current situation of this thread is most of the replies are talking about master pieces while I am over here sitting in a corner trying to figure out what compromises I should be making in order to get a game completed before I die of old age XD.

Or perhaps that it mean that the story, whatever how deep it can be, is in the end more important that the mechanisms.
I rephrase, I don't like it this way...
Or perhaps that it mean that the story take the lead over the game mechanism. Whatever how simple the game can be, if it have an interesting story, it will be good enough.

Take the average "fuck the girl" flash game by example. How many of them are really enjoyable ? They can be funny and/or entertaining, but really few are effectively enjoyable.
This is mostly due to the fact that there's no story. You are suddenly teleported to a place where there's a girl waiting for you to fuck her. Even Asian's variations, which tend to be more elaborated, have this problem. You need to "prepare" the girl, but still you have no clue of who she is, why she's here, and why you should fuck her. Don't take me wrong, if a girl want me to fuck her, I'll agree... but at least she can give me her name, right ? Don't know, I don't feel like banging her hard, then saying, "You like it, right... er... girl ?".
But give a little introduction to the game, provide some context to answer the "who" and "why" from above, and this sudden teleportation feeling will disappear. So, the game can now become enjoyable. Mostly because it will feel less like a, "I was bored, I had some money, there where a prostitute, so I fucked her", situation.

The scale was mostly focused on how much story or writing should be sacrificed but the conversation seems to be of another idea.

The answer should be "none". Mostly because I think that you take the problem from the wrong side. It's not how much story/dialog can be sacrificed, but how much should be added depending of the kind of game you want to make. The game start with no dialog and no story (type 0), then the more you want to achieve (and so go higher in your scale), the more you need to add for the dialogs and story. Which mean that it should be read as, "for this type of game, you need at least this amount of story/dialogs".
A classical "fuck the girl" flash game don't really need dialogs and, like I explained above, as long as there's enough introduction to give some context, it can do it. But a corruption game (since it's what we have the most actually) need way more if it don't want to looks like a "brainwash/blackmail the girls until they let you fuck their ass", game. And obviously a game like

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, which is here to tell us a story, need even more of both.

View from this side, isn't your scale more realistic ?
And a game like Abandoned: a tale of forgotten lives, I talked about previously, suddenly found it's place. It's a type 0 game, there's the girls, and you can fuck them when you want and like you want.
This mean that it don't necessarily need a story and dialog. But like the scale now define the mandatory needed amount of story/dialog, and not how many of them can be sacrificed, it can have (and effectively have) a real story and characters with a real personality.

You seem to be focused on describing what makes a good game, or a successful game.

I would have said, in a total engrish style, "not failure".
If you don't match the minimal requirements for "this type of game", you're assured to fail ; same if your game isn't dynamic and living. You can still fail while doing the things correctly, but at least you had a chance.

It wasn't a tool telling people what to do, but rather a tool of 'consider these options and their effects'. Some simpler games can be just as fun as bigger games, it just takes less energy to make simpler games... sometimes.

And so, like I said above, see it as ,"how much story/dialog is mandatory", more that the, "how much story/dialog can I sacrifice", that was in your mind at start.

As you point out, it's not the depth or complexity that leads to success, but rather... quality?

Perhaps "coherence" of the CG, writing and codding ?
Honestly I don't like the word "quality" in this context, because I found it misleading. In term of quality, Daz3D CG will (almost always) be better than what product Illusion's games. Same for the writing, someone with good English skills will achieve more quality than someone using engrish.
Still there's games using Illusion's assets and wrote in engrish, that are far to be bad. This simply because the author don't try to overdo it. He keep the story simple, like the CG are, and don't try to make a full Fallout/Elder Scrolls like RPG in top of all this. This give a coherence to his game, and lead the player to more indulgence. Indulgence that left more place to enjoy what he have.
At the opposite you have games that have amazing images, but looks like they are wrote by a twelve years old boy who hide in the bushes to look at the girls when they are at the pool. And once you stop to look at the CG and start to read the dialogs, you have the deception of your life ; "Why are The Beatles making a remake of Beiber's "baby" song ?"

Something complex like a brothel management game may be interesting to those who like to manage, and dull to those who want a story or to see interesting porn.

But... You can have a story even with those games. Not necessarily a deep and strong one, but you can.
You are the vigil and really liked by the girls because of your kindness. Suddenly, the owner of the brothel die, and what will happen ? How the girls will live now ? Will they have to sell their body on the streets, with all the implied risks ? No, because everyone agree, you need to take the place ; anyway isn't it what's in the owner's will ? The place is yours, but managing it wasn't your job, so you'll have to learn, with the help of the girls. And because you are young, you also have many ideas to improve it, to offer other services ; perhaps even some legal to give a better cover to the illegal parts.
And the owner's death can be suspect, you can have to investigate about it will managing the brothel. Why not the mafia that want to put their hands on the brothel ? Which mean that you really need to succeed, to always have enough benefit to stay over their head, until the day it's you who put your hand on their own brothels, one by one. But you need to be cautious, you approach their girls, you bribe their vigils, their managers ; so you need to talk to them, to discover their flaws. And one day, almost magically, the brothel is now yours and not theirs anymore.
See, even in a management game you can have a story and give a story to many side characters.

Think about it again, doing something like that to a game, like a management game, i guess intrinsically take the attention away from the game mechanics time and time again to keep things interesting.

Quit the classical "you decide of each action when the time come", and use a "this is the planning for the week" way. It's still managing, you can change the planning at anytime, you need to keep an eye to the progress to see what you did wrong and what you need to improve. But in the same time you have more time for the story part. And, yes, it make the game more dynamic, since you don't have to always to the exact same things because a new day just started.

You make a good point, there is a difference between a good game and reading it, and a bad game and being forced to read. There has to be some hook to get you interested to pull you through, and it has to be interesting along the way.

I know that I'll repeat myself, but it need to be... dynamic
Too many authors feel the need to say too much thing at the same time. This lead to a succession of long lines, and it's boring. There's a difference between :

Sigh... Seriously, who she think she is, it's not because she's the daughter of the CEO of a big company, that we need to bow to every word she say. I swear, one day I'll make her pay for this.

and

Sigh... Seriously ? Who she think she is ?
Alright, she's the daughter of the CEO of a big company, and what ? We will not bow to every word she say, just because of this !
I swear... one day I'll make hey pay for this !

Especially if the first one is followed by yet another big piece of words.
Big pieces of words aren't bad, but you need to use them with caution, they need to have as much meaning than what they say. This while not falling on the opposite side, like some devs do, and having a "dialog line" for every single sentence.
If you do it right (which is difficult and need skills), the size of your dialogs can even express the feeling of the character saying them. By example, if usually you don't use big pieces of words, remove the initial "Sigh..." of the first example, and for the player it will feel like something said really quickly, almost in a single breath ; so it will express the rage and frustration of the character. This while :

Sigh...
Seriously ?
Who she think she is ?

will express perplexity. It's so unbelievable, that the character have to think between each one of this yet short sentences.
Imagine yourself having to say it in situation and with the right feeling. Each time you make a significant pause, put it in the dialog by creating a new "dialog line".

As you mention, sometimes in the head of the writer the useless parts are mandatory, and that is certainly one skill I am trying to get good at, removing the nonessential, keeping things interesting, but trying to keep it above a 1 (on my scale).

I think it's a question of practice... Well, at least I hope, since I plane to make my own game one day

I like your point about "There's no need to "explain the personality", when you can simply show it ; whatever it's in the dialog, by the way things are said, or in the CG, by the way the characters move/react."

Way easier to say than to do But I think that, especially in a game, the reader need to have his place. So, whatever if it don't interpret it exactly the way you meant it, it's always better to give him clues than a full explanation.

Often such a description is a negative thing, but in terms of making the game, doing so makes it easy for players to digest and understand at a quick glance. This is very effective and I find this is a focus point in many animes.

Not necessarily what I prefer, but undeniably the better approach for an adult game. Games with a deeper personality are also great, but they face the problem that started my previous comment. Adult games are entertainment inside entertainment. The writing need to be really good for the game to be enjoyable in this case.
This while the approach you took make it simpler. It's (more or less and said without bad intent) burlesque, so easy to understand at the first glance. And that what we want as player ; a game that don't need us to use too much our brain, at least (for men) not the main one...

Actually, now that you remind me of this, perhaps this is the key I need to get my writing down to a type 2, trying to keep characters to the bare minimum.

Stephen King say, from memory, that you should write the story for yourself, then rewrite it for the reader by removing everything that isn't significant.
In the case of a dev, I see it as :

• You explain (almost) everything ;
• You create your CGs ;
• You play the scene, and you remove everything that is already said by the CGs ;
• Then you read the text again, and for almost each word, ask yourself if it really add something to the story. If not, then you remove it, but with caution because you'll need a certain amount of dialog/story depending of the type of game you make. So, mostly you use and abuse of comments, to keep the original line during the devel process, just in case.

[Edit: Oops, I talked a lot, sorry]