do you think we will ever come close as Japanese adult games ?

[DarknessDai]

so as you can see the huge gap between the mount of H-games from japanese compare to us do u think we will reach point where JP will start TR their games as fast or we will grow larage and make games like them post ur thoughts

 

[javajav]

Probably not? Japan has produced a bounty of adult games for decades. Roughly

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, a home computer from the late 80s, was eroge. Back then we had, what, Leisure Suit Larry? The only moderately successful pre-mainstream-internet game I can think of is the Lula franchise unless you count soft porn FMV CD games. The west was still coming to grips with the concept of some games being catered to adults, establishing rating systems like the ESRB, that sort of thing. There's definitely been a big shift in culture though.

2003: Guy makes Lara Croft fangame where she gets fucked by animals. Becomes the

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.
2020: 3D animation series where Lara Croft gets fucked by a horse is popular.

I think a lot of it is thanks to places like Patreon and Steam offering a platform for works and having demonstrated that it can be a financially viable hobby or business. Before then, I can't really think of a platform that any would-be devs could market and sell their material. Like a _LOT_ of content was flash games, because relatively well-known places like Newgrounds existed where people could post their work. Furries had their furry art communities, cartoon pornographers had places like WWOEC before the birth of 'Rule 34'. Some people who produced popular works went on to make paid games or members-only sites. Others were secluded to their little unknown corners of the internet where they were rarely to be found by people that may enjoy and support their work. Japan has had venues like

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.

Most of the games we see translated and coming here are dojinsoft, small games produced by an individual or small group, adult indie games, chucked up for sale on DLSite, DMM, Melonbooks and other online platforms that cater to that sort of content. If you poke through that Sharp X68000 list you'll probably see some familiar names like Alice Soft, but the vast volume of games are no longer produced by dedicated software houses. And much like Steam has become oversaturated with indie games, many producers on DLSite don't find success either. Go to DLSite's r18 dojinsoft section and sort by newest releases, scroll through the pages. For every dojin game that's had huge success (selling thousands of copies) there's handfuls that have sold a couple hundred, many under a hundred. It's simply not viable to translate even a minority of them professionally.

It will be interesting to see where things go in the next decade or two. Japan's had a huge head start, where the western market is really just starting to come into its own.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Back then we had, what, Leisure Suit Larry? The only moderately successful pre-mainstream-internet game I can think of is the Lula franchise unless you count soft porn FMV CD games.

The first "porn" game ever was "Softporn adventure", a Western creation from 1981, that sold more or less a copy for every four Apple II sold, which is way more than successful for this time. The early 80's also seen many Western companies dedicated to the creation of "porn" games, like

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, who's the most remembered because their games were really bad. Then when the 90's came, and with them CD-ROM, it's the western porn industry that invaded video games, quickly releasing thousands of titles every years. It was so successful than most of the porn magazines included a "software" section in their publications, when not directly creating a magazine dedicated to them.

The main difference between the Western and Japanese scene don't come from the number of time they exist, nor from the number of titles they released, but from the point of view they had, and still have, on the matter.
For the Japanese scene, it was a market like any others, and most of the now top Japanese companies had "porn" games in their catalogue in their early age, like

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among others. This while for the Western scene, it was niche games and they never really invested in their development. One of the companies at this time, don't remember its name, even solely sold their games to adults places, for them to be played on arcades-like devices.
This said, in the 90's, when the porn industry take its share of the market, the quality was here, but they never really understood what those games should be. And while the Japanese scenes had games like

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, to take only one, the Western scenes mostly had games full of porn clips and were more on the side of "sex simulator" or "make your own porn movie", than on the side of games.

Thinking that the Western scene effectively started in the 00's with flash games, and had nothing more than Leisure Suit Larry at this time is underrating it. The 00's is the time where the scene started to effectively reach the general public, and those flash games how they did it, but it was just a continuity of the scene. In a way it's also the proof that Western companies weren't totally wrong by seeing this as a niche market, at least in the 80's and 90's ; the public already had, since a decade, all it needed to know about those games, and just didn't tried to find them.
Globally speaking, the West isn't less perverted, just less ready to admit it. Which explain why platforms like Patreon marked the effective start of a more professional (relatively speaking) approach of those games. Simply because with them you can find your dope anonymously, in the middle of the night, from the secrecy of your home, while everybody else is sleeping. This while Japaneses see less problem in the fact to enter a shop, and buy porn material in it.

 

[javajav]

Thinking that the Western scene effectively started in the 00's with flash games, and had nothing more than Leisure Suit Larry at this time is underrating it. The 00's is the time where the scene started to effectively reach the general public

Agreed. That's the only point I was trying to make, really.

I completely dismissed FMV games because op specifically said "H-Games", which I broadly interpreted to mean any non-real photo/video-based erotic content with visuals. Completely forgot about Mystique can only think of a handful of notable adult games made before 21st century that fit that criteria, predominantly European releases like

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or the previously mentioned Lula games. Then we had early localizations of Japanese games from JAST, C's Ware, etc. The first largely successful series I can think of that fits that criteria is Thrixx's 3DSexVilla, but that was 2001. There's a big distinction to be made between "games with erotic content" versus "erotic games" too.

they never really invested in their development

Western scenes mostly had games full of porn clips and were more on the side of "sex simulator" or "make your own porn movie", than on the side of games.

FMV games made sense on paper. Porn in the west was mostly videos and mags. Slicing POV videos into clips and making a game where hitting a "suck my dick" button plays blowjob.mpg was a low-cost low-risk venture for an existing AV production company to test the waters in that new-fangled home computer market when the hardware allowed it. Just had to do a normal shoot in the studio and hand the footage over to some computer dweeb. In the same vein, you could say that Japanese erotic visual novels were a digitized version of an established market, erotic dojin/manga, with more story and some interactivity thrown in, but I think that was a better fit in that it enhanced the experience and added many more possibilities. Even now, H-Games that use pre-rendered FMVs are the minority, and many animated titles opt to offer interactivity and customization during scenes ('SLG').

Globally speaking, the West isn't less perverted

Yeah, it'd be a total cop-out to simply chalk it down to that. But I think it's fair to say that post-camera pre-internet, erotic illustrations were more akin to novelties like erotic bakeries or a legitimate form of art to be admired instead of masturbation material. Secluded to the funny section of Playboy, or an accompaniment to literotica outside of niche comic communities like in the BDSM scene. And we've gone from the general public categorizing them as "weird japanese sex cartoons" to

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.

It still boggles my mind that Rule 34 is a mainstream thing now. I remember it being a complete culture shock first learning about the massive dojin markets, but now the new generation wouldn't think twice about searching for '<insert character here> porn'. It's weird. There are definitely massive differences in culture, but parallels where you wouldn't really expect them. Or maybe you would and I'm just a twit.

But to bring it back to erotic games specifically. I think Japan just happened to have something of a perfect storm to make the industry boom early on. They had the distribution channels, a viable established medium to translate to early home computers (manga), and an aware market that accepted it. It's only recently these that things have aligned for the rest of the world, but it's still relatively immature and Japan's had a good 10-20 year head start.

 

[SugarMint]

Even if they have had an early start and are way ahead, they are reluctant to translating their games for western markets so it leaves a lot of room for us. In the end, there should not be discernible differences in quality between western and eastern because game engines are available to everyone, but as far as content goes it will be a long time.

 

[DawnCry]

The main point I notice between japanese and western games is related to how optional the stuff is. Overall here we are quite obsessed with having everything optional and we don't consider things like "being able to skip a scene" albeit it happens.

When I think about some successful games from the japanese market I do wonder if... based on our current model, could those games be developed?.

Take for example kichikuou rance, this game is the king of bad endings for characters, albeit it has quite a few sweet scenes too, but the game would have been so much different if the current western market did it, not based on gameplay or anything like that, but in how it delivers the porn. In fact take for example the situation of Sill and Soul, the first one will suicide after being raped while the second one ends sex crazed if you don't rescue them in time, would it be possible for any patreon developer to add something like that to their game without the forums and their patreon burning with hate comments?.

I do believe the current western market tends too much to generic and optional sex scenes compared ot the japanese and sometimes this is quite a problem, be it in development or on the scenes delivery, it makes me wonder if the japanese are quite a lot more tolerant on the fetish aspect or rather we are too closed up. I just find that we are limiting creativity and the patreon model doesn't help.

 

[北方玄武]

From my point of view, this threshold was passed long time ago. I see so many exciting games here that the japanese hentai games with all due respect are very nice but the games here are far superior imo. Also one very big plus:

Uncensored. Nuff said.

 

[Kinderalpha]

I'm not familiar with how accepted adult or eroge games are in Japan, so I'm not gonna make any comments on the cultural or acceptance aspect of it here in Western culture.

I do think we're pretty close. We don't have any large name studios creating high production games like Illusion is doing, but with the success of WildLife I think some heads are gonna turn and popularity among this genre is gonna increase. I think right now, the subject is so new and taboo that people just haven't accepted it. There's a lack of support from a lot of communities which in turn gives adult games this stigma that it's weird, or socially unacceptable. Once communities and platforms alike recognize the art, and expression of adult games like Steam has and then communities begin opening their door the the idea of this, it's gonna take off.

Communities being anything related to game or game development discussion. Most, if not all, that do not directly advertise adult games, completely prohibit the discussion, sharing, or promotion of them. I think it's kinda silly, but it is what it is.

While I'm here. We need an lewd game jam.

 

[ParadiseLofts]

so as you can see the huge gap between the mount of H-games from japanese compare to us do u think we will reach point where JP will start TR their games as fast or we will grow larage and make games like them post ur thoughts

I certainly hope the growing market drives a response from developers to create ever-improving content. I think we're already seeing it, actually, but kinderalpha is right. There is a bit of a stigma to adult games. But better and better games/content will drive more mainstream audiences in, eventually, I hope. I certainly see a future where there is a company that produces mainly adult content, making as much or more than some top performing studios, and not just in the Asian markets.

 

[215303j]

My problem with Japanese VN's is, that I'm not Japanese and that I'm never going to understand some aspects of their culture.
This makes Western games inherently better, from my perspective.

Both western and Japanese games vary with regards to quality, so that's not a big issue, in my opinion.

 

[Namco15]

What I would give to play a game with daz renders combined with the gameplay of Sengoku Rance or Kamidori

 

[baloneysammich]

2003: Guy makes Lara Croft fangame where she gets fucked by animals. Becomes the

You must be registered to see the links

.

To be fair, the author of that article seems to have a fixation with sex in games. Years ago I came across an

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, which it turns out was also written by him, and I also found an article about Lightning Warrior Raidy in his portfolio.

 

[Callowayaway]

Uncensored. Nuff said.

You realize that was done by westerners, right? That's why it's always implemented in such a passive-aggressively ineffective way.

 

[chainedpanda]

Sadly, I don't think the rest of the world will ever catch up. At best the adult gaming community grows enough that Japanese devs begin to translate shit, and we get a version of the jrpg boom but for porn games, and the japs take over the porn game industry here.

The biggest issue is simply that our current system promotes small groups or single devs vs large teams. There just isn't that much money to be had for this community. We have come to expect free shit. That just doesn't fly in any other industry, and it does not encourage growth. Unless you already have a passion or think it's an easy way to make a quick buck, why bother making porn games? It's not that profitable. Some have been lucky, but most haven't. Some good games, that devs have put hundred of hours in spending years of development barely makes enough to buy a sandwich.

Look at Free Cities, a game that had been in development for years (ignoring the mod). The dev seemed like a decent dude, he interacted with his community, he put tons of work into the game, had a large fan base, and made single-digit donations every month. It's no wonder he vanished.

The economics, nor the community promotes the Japanese style of market. I think we can actually look at anime/manga as a reference here. For decades it was some obscure bullshit only the nerdiest people partook in. For various reasons, it was easier to just pirate the damn thing rather than actually pay to view the material. Which further distanced western audiences from the market. It is becoming easier now, and Japan is now making money from us regarding anime and manga however, this is just because anime and manga have become mainstream here. Go to a random middle school and just ask how many kids watch My Hero Academia, you'll get your answer.

It took the anime/manga decades to finally get to a place where it can be monetized to a decent degree. If we look at politics, it becomes an even bigger issue, possibly an even bigger hurdle than the economic problem. However, this post is long enough.

It is an interesting what-if though.

 

[Kinderalpha]

The biggest issue is simply that our current system promotes small groups or single devs vs large teams. There just isn't that much money to be had for this community. We have come to expect free shit. That just doesn't fly in any other industry, and it does not encourage growth. Unless you already have a passion or think it's an easy way to make a quick buck, why bother making porn games? It's not that profitable. Some have been lucky, but most haven't. Some good games, that devs have put hundred of hours in spending years of development barely makes enough to buy a sandwich.

There are indie games that go in development for years and barely make any money too, and that industry is exponentially larger than adult gaming. That's not a problem with this industry. Adult games are very new. Yes they've been around forever, but they haven't received the amount of attention to detail and design as much as SFW games have. As a result, the overall quality and design of these games naturally are going to be lower. However, teams are breaking down these walls. We see this with games like WildLife, Summertime Saga, Witch Trainer, Big Brother. All varying styles of games that show success. Indie games blew the fuck up in the 2010's because of huge releases like Minecraft. That's gonna happen to adult games in Western culture. It's just a matter of time.

Look at Free Cities, a game that had been in development for years (ignoring the mod). The dev seemed like a decent dude, he interacted with his community, he put tons of work into the game, had a large fan base, and made single-digit donations every month. It's no wonder he vanished.

I'm not going to discredit the guys work because I think that game is exceptional. However, it his lack of success by your account could be categorized as a design problem, marketing problem, and scope problem. Not an industry wide problem. You can spend five years on a game, time isn't what makes it good. No Man's Sky sucked ass when it came out. Years of development and insane hype. The game flopped. Later on they assess the design problem they faced with their game and relaunched/remarketed. Now the game is recognized more positively. Free Cities is heavily detailed text based game with a steep learning curve and now visual aids in an industry that thrives on exploiting people's arousal and low attention span. Not hard to see why it's not extremely successful. Still a crazy game though.

The economics, nor the community promotes the Japanese style of market. I think we can actually look at anime/manga as a reference here. For decades it was some obscure bullshit only the nerdiest people partook in. For various reasons, it was easier to just pirate the damn thing rather than actually pay to view the material. Which further distanced western audiences from the market. It is becoming easier now, and Japan is now making money from us regarding anime and manga however, this is just because anime and manga have become mainstream here. Go to a random middle school and just ask how many kids watch My Hero Academia, you'll get your answer.

This seems like a good thing to me. It's an example of our culture becoming more accepting of a culture outside of our own. I agree that these things have definitely grown in popularity in the US in recent years for whatever reason. To compare this popularity now to ten years ago is what you can do with adult gaming now as opposed to ten years ago.

I respect your view on it though. I'm just curious what makes you feel like the adult gaming industry is trapped due to cultural constraints. I think it's just because it's not popular. Indie games were garbage before some of the big indie hits came out. Then suddenly you get all these game jams, infinite amounts of resources and talks, and a huge community of indie developers networking and sharing their work. This ultimately improved the quality and demand of that industry. Same will happen here in time. People are already getting sick of visual novel repeats and other media. The community is ripe for change and it's just a matter of time before some stellar games bring more attention to this industry.

 

[北方玄武]

You realize that was done by westerners, right? That's why it's always implemented in such a passive-aggressively ineffective way.

i DO realize that japanese devs are forced to censor everything (to me thats bullshit) but yeah the westerners dont need to censor genitals.