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I'm more of an Irulan guy. Not a fan of the canonical self-cucking.
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I liked the second part better, and it was amusing, but I felt it fell flat on some of the important themes of the novel. For me, Dune's depth stands on three pillars: culture and religion, ecology and political intrigue. The movie did a good job with the cultural and religious part of the novel, IMHO. Not perfect when it comes to fremen culture, and very bland regarding other cultures, but solid regarding the religious side of the story. But it completely dropped the ball regarding the other two important facets of the novel(s). The ecology side of the story is totally missing, and the political intrigue is trimmed down so much it becomes just a shallow patina of colorful lore as a thin backdrop for the movie.
So I didn't hate it, kinda enjoyed it, but don't think it really did the novel justice. Better than the first one, though.
But Arrakeen still looks like it's basically just the palace and some warehouses. Not a fictionalized Cairo to Herbert's fictionalized Mahdist War or Arab Revolt (pick your choice).
What are you exactly looking for? I can code, can't engage with AI art (nor are willing to), can edit images, but have very little free time. I can't commit to contribute consistently, but might help with minor or one-off tasks, time allowing.
I agree, because i feel that she was a bit under-utilized in behind the dune
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Not a big fan of what Frank Herbert did to her either. Paul wanting to be monogamous is one thing, him downright being a dick to Irulan is another, but at least she should have had a secret lover, or a few, just like Alia (or any noble woman in her situation).
Of course it didn't do the novel justice. It couldn't possibly. Not in the time available to it and with the goal of pleasing general audiences. But is it an engaging movie? Yes. And I think it is objectively the best Dune movie so far. Although I still personally prefer the Lynch adaptation for its visual style and ridiculousness. That being said, the visual design of Dune Part 2 was really awesome too. The only things I really didn't like about it, again, were the washed out colours and the bland brutalist architecture everywhere. Arrakeen Palace looked like a freaking bunker.
Of course most aspects of the novel were condensed at best. A filmmaker will naturally have to emphasize certain aspects of a story, that he thinks are most important. My own adaptation is emphasizing certain aspects and de-emphasizing others. Except I have the luxury of adapting to the same medium, so I don't have to make as many sacrifices.
I'm guessing the interplay of Fremen culture and ecology will have to be an important part of the next movie. We already see them going to great lengths to collect and preserve water and Stilgar tells us what they plan on doing with it. Yes, the Fremen are already supposed to be terraforming the southern half of Arrakis at this point of the story. An acceptable omission in my opinion, as long as it isn't glossed over next time.
Would I have done things differently within the same time constraints? Absolutely.
Here is a loose list of things I disliked:
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That's good to hear, and appreciated.
There's a good amount of coding to be done and plenty of image editing in due time I reckon. Integrating scenes and dialogue into the code, perhaps creating new bits of UI, cleaning up AI art, that sort of thing.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the source code, and I wouldn't be able to instruct you anyway. I'm sure lmno will contact you once he gets back.
To be fair, she was always under-utilized. Seeing her in the movie adaptations was always weird and a waste of time, since she just doesn't have anything important to do. She's basically the narrator in the book, there's no need to have her as a character at all, aside from the obligatory appearance at the end.
Of course Balsamique's Irulan is really hot and should have more scenes, hence why he kinda re-used her for Horror in Hongdae (the teacher looks just like her).
"Meanwhile Muad'Dib was drowning in family pussy" you got me laughing and excited at the same time for that.
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IIRC he once said to her something along this line: "you can sleep with whoever you want, just don't get pregnant, bitch". So I guess the self-cucking was mutual. Which can be seen as a noble self-sacrifice from her side - but that sacrifice comes right after another when she have decided to marry a dangerous stranger to save her father. Nothing but a streak of shitty cards for a girl that just wanted to read books.
My personal gripe wasn't the architecture - I mean, it's Deni Villeneuve; dude just likes his big empty rooms.
The vehicles were serviceable, some even inspired. No, what really disappointed me was the armor designs. The clothes were ok for the most part, but the armors were just really generic - just some, I don't know, ai-generated photobash made from Pinterest search results. Something out of early 2000s sci-fi RTS games. Atreides, Harkonnen and Sardaukar armors look almost like reskins of the same model with different colors. The stillsuits look like Crysis suits.
Why though? They're ones of the blandest and flattest villains you'd find. In the trio of The Lord of the Rings, Dune and Star Wars only Palpatine can really be compared to them (since we don't meet with the Sauron). Both Vader and Saruman are much more interesting then any of the Harkonnens, IMO. They are just walking (/floating) tropes, worthy of saturday morning cartoons. You have your mustache-twirling cackling master of intrigues (he's also an obese pervert that rapes little boys), his dumb violent sidekick and his another nephew, the one that combines the cunning of one with the physical ferocity of another. They'd feel right at home in something like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
But then again, I admit, I'm not the biggest fan of the book in general. Yeah, it was a significant milestone back at its time, but it's not like it is a second Bible or something. Unless one would subscribe to that theory that the first book is basically a propaganda of a current ruling house, written to show that this house is the noblest, bravest, wisest, coolest and definitely most deserving of the throne, who won the said throne by allying with the 'noble savages' and bravely overcoming against all odds in a fierce battle of survival against their enemies, who were scheming, unworthy and decidedly uncool ignoble savages. Moreover, that's a book supposedly written by a hostage of the ruling house.
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Well in the miniseries - where she was portrayed by the lovely Julie Cox - she did play a larger part, but I can't say the story benefited from it much. I mean, the miniseries had their own charm (I'd say the Children of Dune were the highest peak), but they gave Irulan the part of Margot, and so she turned into some foxy intrigante that tries to win the admiration of her weary daddy. (Another sin of the series is their portrayal of Shaddam - Giancarlo Giannini is a fine actor, but he was portraying some homely Italian middle-class grandpa there.)
Well Balsamique's Irulan is basically a different character, someone's from a college sex movie. Then again, his game is more of a light-hearted parody, so the change isn't out of place. Just hoping your Irulan would be the posh introverted princess she's supposed to be.
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Hm, I think I vaguely remember this bit, now that you mention it. Paul may have been gracious enough to allow Irulan to have an affair, but Frank Herbert wasn't. Instead he gave her some kind of Stockholm Syndrome. She venerates the guy that exiled her father, keeps her as a hostage and disrespects her on a regular basis. Not to mention the billions of deaths he caused...
And yet she's jealous of Chani and she keeps writing books about him.
I totally agree about the suits. I guess I eventually got used to them though. The Harkonnen armour actually looked good, in my opinion. Not very imaginative, but fitting enough.
But yeah, overall the armours looked way too contemporary. Stillsuits are a wondrous piece of sci-fi technology. They should look exotic, and not like some generic protective gear. The Sardaukar armour should look fearsome, not sensible.
These are the Sardaukar from Jodorowsky's Dune. As ridiculous as those designs look, they suggest that there are crazy mofos inside those suits, which is exactly what the Sardaukar are. Dune takes place in a future so distant that most things should look totally foreign to us. Villeneuve went to great lengths to show us what the Sardaukar are like, by taking a non-canon detour to Salusa Secundus. And that bit worked very well. But then he stuck them in some uninspired standard infantry armour.
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Flat they are, but definitely not bland. I love to watch their antics. They are the polar opposite of the Atreides in that they are unabashedly evil and self-indulgent. The Duke does his best to foster a meritocracy and he keeps the inherent darker aspects of his totalitarian rule hidden beneath a veneer of magnanimity.
The Baron on the other hand revels in his immorality and rubs it in people's faces. He exploits weakness wherever he finds it. Economically, militarily, sexually - both in his enemies and his allies. He is a predator in every sense. And his flunkies reflect that. They buck the trend of self-abandonment found in the other factions. Having these base characters among a cast of otherwise detached and hyper-disciplined elites is a breath of fresh air. I don't care what this says about me, but I can more easily vibe with the morbidly obese violent pederast, than I can with Space-Jesuits or Space-Mujahideen.
Sure, they don't exactly provide cerebral entertainment, but I don't care. I also love Palpatine (in Return of the Jedi). Characters don't necessarily have to be deep or nuanced or any of that in order to serve their purpose.
I'm suprised to hear that. Dune is without a doubt one of my favourite books. It may have plot-holes, inconsistencies and various other weaknesses, but it explores its themes very well and it gave me a lot to think about. Maybe I just have a low standard because I don't read much sci-fi.
I also think it is more cynical than you give it credit for (although evidently not enough - otherwise Frank Herbert wouldn't have felt the need to spell out the central message of his book in the appendix: "Beware of heroes!").
The Children of Dune miniseries was serviceable. I enjoyed it. But the other miniseries fell short in pretty much every conceivable way. It's as if the creators of that one only read the cliffs notes on Dune and had no idea what it was actually about. And the casting was pretty bad all around. Most of the actors just didn't feel like the characters they were supposed to portray.
To be honest, I haven't come up with a characterization for her at all so far.
She's not exactly a character that occupies a lot of space in my mind. Was she introverted? I don't remember. But it sounds good to me.
Also, I really do have to re-read Dune Messiah at some point. I don't remember it nearly as well as the first book.
Evidently you care more about Irulan than I do. Feel free to give me notes on what she should be like, if you want to. They don't have to be canon either.
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can i give some too?
how about less of the stockholm syndrome and more of a meek girl turn actual worshiper? she sees pauls successes as the second coming of jesus, likes to be bossed around and taken advantage of by paul, turns near suicidally depressed if overly neglected, and earnestly wants to bear the most of pauls babies and future daughter/wives to his harem. (in other words contribute most to his legacy)
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Sure you can, anyone can.can i give some too?
how about less of the stockholm syndrome and more of a meek girl turn actual worshiper? she sees pauls successes as the second coming of jesus, likes to be bossed around and taken advantage of by paul, turns near suicidally depressed if overly neglected, and earnestly wants to bear the most of pauls babies and future daughter/wives to his harem. (in other words contribute most to his legacy)
Unfortunately the kind of woman you describe sounds deeply unattractive to me. Apart from her furthering the breeding cause, she sounds more like a burden than anything. And I can't see Paul having anything but distaste for such a woman, especially the worship part.Of course I'm not writing this thing only for myself. So there's gonna be some concessions to other people's tastes. And there will come a time when I will inevitably have to deviate more and more from the canon and porn logic increasingly takes over. But this really sounds a bit extreme. A more mild version of what you describe could be possible though.
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hmm, well my thoughts were those plus her job as a chronicler and propaganda flunkie. she's already important bloodline wise for further throne legitimacy, so with some subjective flaws to go with those perks it'd help to balance her out a bit to the players or something. kinda making her the token girl that not everyone may like but so long as paul is doing some shit right is kinda a freebie harem member. *shrug*Sure you can, anyone can.
Of course I'm not writing this thing only for myself. So there's gonna be some concessions to other people's tastes. And there will come a time when I will inevitably have to deviate more and more from the canon and porn logic increasingly takes over. But this really sounds a bit extreme. A more mild version of what you describe could be possible though.
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In my opinion Irulan is treated badly by Paul in the novels for 3 reasons:Sure you can, anyone can.
Of course I'm not writing this thing only for myself. So there's gonna be some concessions to other people's tastes. And there will come a time when I will inevitably have to deviate more and more from the canon and porn logic increasingly takes over. But this really sounds a bit extreme. A more mild version of what you describe could be possible though.
1. She is the legitimate heir of House Corinno
2. She is a Bene Gesserit
3. Paul loves Chani and doesn’t want that there are any doubts about who’s his real companion and the mother of his children
1. and 2. mean that she’s potentially an important piece of any conspiracy against his rule (and that’s exactly what happens in the books). It’s entirely possible that Paul knew that with his prescience when he declared that Irulan would never know his caresses.
3. is the “human”, emotional reason why any person forced to marry for political reasons would dislike their designated partner.
So maybe if Irulan didn’t take part to conspiracies against Muad’dib he would have been kinder to her (and the whole being his historian would make more sense).
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I did enjoy Hurt's Leto, though. Felt like he fitted the role. The rest of the cast was, yeah... Edit: Oh, how could I forget about jesting Ian McNeice - a perfect counterweight the somewhat anemic Leto.
First of all, thank you for willing to hear my thoughts. And yeah, you're right, I do care about her, mostly because of these 3 points:
1.) She's a princess;
2.) She's blonde;
3.) She's a damsel in distress.
All of which happen to be things I find hot. Add to that another 3 points:
1.) She's haughty and posh;
2.) This haughty and posh ice queen is dominated by MC;
3.) But that leads nowhere nor by MC nor by the author; she just kinda drags along among the secondary characters, just once playing a small part in a coup attempt.
And that would explain the source of frustration over her underutilization in the canon. The potential for an interesting and engaging character is there, but it wasn't used.
On the other hand, AFAIK you said same time ago that you don't plan for Irulan to play a significant part, like being a part of Paul's harem. Plus I really don't want to intrude on your creative process, so feel free to ignore the next paragraph.
Still, I do have some thoughts. May be she can become a part of Paul's harem, just not the central part (that should be Chani, if you plan to lean more towards canon, or Jessica if you want it to be more of a serious retelling of Balzamique's story). More of a foil, a counterpoint to the harem's center; the woman(/women) in center are who Paul loves, while she is reduced to a sex toy for him and his women. May be as a petty way for him to humiliate the former emperor further, or may be it's a political move, to shut the court's and galaxy gossips - "see, I am sleeping with my wife, emperor's daughter, I do consummate our legal marriage - it's not my fault she can't bear children and thus my concubine will have to conceive, that's what concubines for" (a bit of uncanonical "Chani is poisoned with contraceptives" arc reversal). And sure she would hate this, whichever the case; hate him and herself and bemoan her destroyed pride - but may be with time, in a true sadomasochistic nature, a part of her would start to enjoy her new sex slave status. I don't know, I just like cold bitches get fucked raw.
And once again I would recommend this (very) short story that fits what I just wrote 100% and on top of that is almost canonical:
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I'm not saying that Paul didn't have good reasons to treat Irulan that way. Still, it's a pity, cause she didn't really deserve it. You could say she committed thought crimes, because Paul knew ahead of time, through prescience, of Irulan's involvement in the plot against him and of her poisoning Chani. But then it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, because she wouldn't have done that stuff had she been treated better.
It's a fucked up situation, really.
Oh, I do think that she will be a harem member. I mean imagine playing a porn game that has "breeding" in the title and you can't knock up your designated wife? Even if it's just a political marriage? That would feel like a glaring omission, even though it would be canon. It is a porn game after all.
That being said, being a harem member doesn't necessarily make her an important character. The question is, how much space will there be for her next to Jessica and Alia? Chani and Harah are likely going to be bigger characters than her as well, although Harah's sidestory will probably be mostly concluded by the time Paul marries Irulan. And then there's the Reverend Mother, who's a fan favourite as well and in dire need of a comeuppance, and who will re-appear into the story at the same time as Irulan makes her debut...
We will see. But my gut instinct tells me that Paul's interactions with Irulan will be comparatively shallow. Not like in that short story. More pornographic than erotic. Actual eroticism will have to be reserved mainly for Jessica. But it's really impossible to tell now.
Still, it's good to have all that input now, so that it has ample time to ferment in my head.
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I agree with a lot of what you say, and I would add I very much disliked the visual design of the Harkonnen.
Feel free to send me a message, I'll do what I can.
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Well, you can make her the harem's fluffer then. Imagine how hot it would be, to see this prideful Heiress of the Known Universe diminished to MCs cock-servant - she'd have to lick and suck his cock after he cums, until it's hard again, and while he fucks his favourites, she'll have to entertain other harem members with her mouth.
BTW, here's another idea about the harem. In the original books Paul is to connected to sietch Tabr, I feel - both of his wives are from there, his mentor/father figure is from there etc. That's understandable considering the circumstances, but after all the Fremen proclaim him as their messiah, I imagine all the tribes would want some connection to him. In fact, Balsamique's BtD fixes it somewhat, giving him a girl to screw in every sietch. So in your game at some point he too could get all the girls - Khaira, Anbarin, Zakiya etc - every sietch would send him a woman of his choice as their "representative" concubines. All the children from that woman would be send back to her sietch, so that there'll be blood of Muad'Dib in the veins of that tribe.
After the battle for Arakeen, when the story would transit to "Dune Messiah", this breeding program could be expanded to the whole Empire. All the planets, all the Houses will have to send their women to Paul's court as a tribute. Men would be slaughtered in the Jihad, their women would be bred by Atreides seed. (Perhaps there should be
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in the emperor's harem - with Chani and Jessica forming the first tier, the other Fremen women in the second tier, the Great Houses women in the third tier, and concubines from the regular planets in the fourth tier.) Circling back to Irulan - perhaps instead of being the Royal Chronicler she can take the office of Royal Breeder. Any woman of the Empire can come to Arakeen and request to be impregnated with the Emperor's seed. The process is as follows - Paul fucks any woman he chooses in any orifice he chooses, and after he cums, Irulan would have to suck the cum from the aforementioned orifice and, through a special thin glass tube inserted into petitioner's cervix, spit the cum inside her uterus, ensuring 100% pregnancy probability. I mean yeah, they could just send the sperm to different planets by ships, but it's more fun this way (plus you can't trust the Guild in such matters).
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She's not in the game yet and won't be for a while. But there's already a slight bit of loli. A vision of the past.
Fluffer, heh. I like that idea. That's definitely a possibility.
I've thought of something similar. It's possible. Although I don't know if the girls would have to be brought to Arrakeen for that purpose, since the player has the freedom to move around the planet in the game, and it would seem like an arbitrary restriction.
I don't think the familiar Fremen leaders from BtD will be in the game though. I'd rather have some that are at least semi-canon. But I think I will have to invent some too.
That's a hot thought, but maybe it goes a bit far. Not thematically or morally, just from a practical perspective. Also, the good thing about only impregnating the inhabitants of Arrakis, is that you can then see the results later. Although perhaps the game doesn't have to be restricted to only Arrakis. Eh, there's little sense in speculating about this now...
Erm, wasn't artificial insemination forbidden in the Empire, hence why the Bene Gesserit wanted Paul to impregnate Alia in person? Or does that exist only in my imagination?
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I am quite sure you are right on this. That was also one of the reasons the Tleilaxu and their cloning procedures had such a bad reputation IIRC
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I think you're both right, if I remember it correctly. Though it's been years since I last read the books.