Excuse my asking but where is AVN Industry Headed?

[WarpedGaming]

I'm fairly new, but have been doing a lot of research into the AVN market, and there are a lot of interesting things I'm finding using a number of tools "some i've developed myself "scrappers made with Python" and using sites like Graphtreon to analyze stats but not paying attention to the top rankings on that site because that's not really what I'm researching. It's more from a beginner's perspective. Those who are just now getting into the industry with their first novel "like me"

Now understand I'm 60 years old and retired and this is just me passing the time because I'm not really a TV couch potato type like most old retired people are. So even though I'm doing this to make money "that is just experimenting if you will" but anyway back to my point.

Exactly what are the new developers doing and are they spending any time properly learning the craft? Suck as learning storytelling, world development, character development, etc. I mean from the novels I've gone through over the past few months it's the wildest roller coaster I've ever been on. about 5% that was GREAT, maybe 25-30% that was entertaining and you could get into but that left about 65-70% that was in the bottom. Which I classify as "I didn't even finish the first chapter." And most do have Patreon pages and their stats reflect this through lack of views, growth, etc.

I mean just judging from this forum alone "which has in the 5 figures of visitors daily here" are people just coming up with stories in their head and throwing them down on paper without any work on story, plot character backstories, etc? So of these releases, it's hard to tell anything or if there was any thought or planning to begin with.

Now I'm not in no way trying to be mean or insulting "and not mentioning no names or game titles that I've gone through" for one because I'm getting into this field myself "because I love Blender and Daz" and discovered AVN's when I signed up to this forum and figured I could get into this but I need a goal. My goal was to just have my games breakeven. Personally, I'd call that a success "only because I don't need the money to pay bills or anything" but I do want something to shoot for so I know how I'm doing.

I will say a lot of the games I found are people not from this forum and not sure how they got into it but they are putting out games and I found them on simple Google searches like anyone else would. Now I found THIS forum by specifically searching for 'AVN developers" but for new people looking to read adult visual novels and searching on Google to get started are going to find a couple of gems but they're going to waste some time downloading and reading some pretty badly put together ones. I'm also judging graphics, animations, music, sound effects, the whole thing because it's all entertainment and keeps a person interested. And also reflects on the professionalism of the developer "in my opinion."

I'll end here for now to see how well this thread goes over and just respond with an open mind for discussion on the topic. How many ARE trying to make money making novels, or is just to pass the time like me, or just a hobby and you love doing?

LET'S CHAT!

 

[redknight00]

Microtransactions and lootboxes.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Jesus, who cares? Go back where you comes from.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Exactly what are the new developers doing and are they spending any time properly learning the craft?

They are having fun, and really few among them know how to "do it right".
But well, where's the problem ? They are having fun, and even the worse games find a public, what mean that there's also players that are having fun. Isn't it the goal of a game, to have fun ?

I mean just judging from this forum alone "which has in the 5 figures of visitors daily here"

With an average around 15,000 peoples logged at a given moment, the number of daily visitors have at least 6 digits.

are people just coming up with stories in their head and throwing them down on paper without any work on story, plot character backstories, etc?

For ~80% of them, yes, it's how it works. And the other 20% have a hard time to exist because they need more time to release an update.

I'll end here for now to see how well this thread goes over

It will not goes really well, because it's really not the place for such discussion.
People on that part of the forum are here to learn, not to theorize.

How many ARE trying to make money making novels, or is just to pass the time like me, or just a hobby and you love doing?

The majority... and it's the answer for the three points.

Jesus, who cares? Go back where you comes from.

I'm pretty sure that, unlike most of us, Jesus care. There's so many sinners here.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

I'm pretty sure that, unlike most of us, Jesus care. There's so many sinners here.

What if I'm some super serious Christian?
You broke my heart

 

[anne O'nymous]

What if I'm some super serious Christian?

On this forum ?

You broke my heart

It's the holidays and I'm nice for the few hours remaining before the end of the day year, but for the magic kiss, ask someone else.

Edit: there's not 365 years in a day, you idiot, it's the opposite.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

On this forum ?

Even my deep faith is questionned. Hate this turn of event .

 

[Saki_Sliz]

I mean from the novels I've gone through over the past few months it's the wildest roller coaster I've ever been on.

Yep its... something

get into this but I need a goal. My goal was to just have my games breakeven.

That's actually a high goal. My goal is just get a freaking game dev tag

How many ARE trying to make money making novels, or is just to pass the time like me, or just a hobby and you love doing?

Now this is the main question, the meat of the topic (continues to eat my fried chicken dinner while I type this )

I have a few different perspectives/answers from Anne
I for one love discussions! I often prefix my (few) posts with [DISCUSSION], and I always have a hard time writing replies because I always ramble, but need to keep my messages concise so people actually read them.

Anyways, time for my take.

As you stated, most games are meh, and there are a few gems here and there.

The reason I say breaking even is a 'high goal' is because if money is seriously your goal, then that would classify you as an 'indie dev' or independent developer. However, I wouldn't say most devs on this sight or in the adult game dev community are making a financial stake in their projects. I would classify 99% of us as 'casual game dev' making projects 'for fun.'

I don't know how much fun most other devs have making games, if they had fun I imagine they would keep making games after their first project... Like game making as a hobby... but I don't see a lot of that. I think the main thing that power most game devs to make AVN is inspiration, is simply being inspired by another game they liked... and being horny.

As you noted, a lot of projects seem like the dev may not have spent too much time refining their work. I think in reality, they spent some time, but only long enough for it to no longer be interesting. Since 'casually' making games is not a job, many devs here aren't putting too many hours into our work. While it can take a long time to make a game, its not 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year. Since no one is telling them to make the game other then their intellectual curiosity and libido, besides balancing life, work, and energy, devs also have to manage how much fun it is to work on a project. So i believe 'good enough' is often the answer because while there's always more to do and more to learn and more to improve, at some point the ease of learning how to be better decreases, and the effort to be better increases, and the overall amount of work overcomes the 'joy' of working. That is to say, when people are self motivated, they aren't lazy, but rather there is a maximum balancing point before they start having 'diminishing returns on investments' (with the returns being the will to work (aka fun+interest) and the investment being effort to do/be better) that determines when they say 'good enough' and ship out their work.

Spoiler: I'm putting you back in your cage

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Now with the goblin secured (don't mind our goof ball here), Welcome to the dev forums!
I'm a game dev, making games for a little over a decade... however all of those were academic games, personals experiments, and I have not yet released a project on this account (my annonymous game dev account), so as you will notice, my account does not gave a game dev tag... yet! I like to talk about game development, programming, art, etc. and I'm sort of tired of talking like a game dev... but not having a game dev tag. So my goal is to release a game... The issue is that's been my goal since joining this site years ago.

As you noted, most games are meh, and there are a few that have some great work put in ore some great ideas and execution. I'm one of those kids who was called a genius growing up, self taught coding and electronics before high school, so I hold myself up to some high standards. I've been working on projects for years now, getting better with each, but nothing I wanted to continue or redo simply because as I get better, as I learn more, my standards increase as well, and the original project no longer aligns. It's a vicious cycle, like a rabid squirl biting itself.

This past year was a test to see how long I could focus on one project and not get destracted (I finally finished college, finished working customer service jobs, and started my career as an engineer with a regular work schedule), as well as focus on getting my art skill good enough to make character art I can finally feel comfortable with [tolerate] sharing, and I'm happy to say I passed!

Now I'm working on writing and trying to develop a work flow that focuses on making content (written and drawn) rather than planning elaborate game systems, just to see if I can force myself into making something that is easier to share publicly (using renpy and VN like game), as opposed to past projects which were custom coded technical monstrosities. So at the very least I can say I'm aiming for quality but.... time will tell.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I don't know how much fun most other devs have making games, if they had fun I imagine they would keep making games after their first project... Like game making as a hobby... but I don't see a lot of that.

It's where his "breakeven" goal make all the difference.
I agree with you about the fact that most devs on the scene are purely amateurs and couldn't effectively qualify as "indie", but...

It's a hobby that take most of your free time and can possibly cost you a lot of money. And, while it can be rewarding, it's way more to your ego, than on your pocket, that this goes. Really few among the creators earn enough to cover their expenses. And it's even more true if we include all those who disappeared from Patreon after one game ; we then pass from around 20% who cover their expense to less than 10% (and I'm generous).
Money isn't necessarily an issue, most of them have a job and it can pay enough for them to be able to afford such expenses. But things are different when you put this in parallel with the sacrifices you had to do. When it come to having fun while spending money, a big party with your friends, a romantic week-end with your significant one, holidays at the sea with your kids, are more rewarding than making an adult game.

So i believe 'good enough' is often the answer [...]

Isn't it like for all hobbies ? The pleasure come from the making more than from the result, and it's only a minority who are deceived by this result because they feel that they can do better.
How many time have you started a software for your own use, and lost the desire to continue it once it was working ? It could works better, it could do more, but now that the task is done, the pleasure left you. Continuing it wouldn't anymore be a hobby, it would looks like works ; and well, you already have a job, and it's a payed one.

It's a vicious cycle, like a rabid squirl biting itself.

Switch your point of view. Is it really your goal that increase, or is it just the fact that the pleasure is in learning, way more than in making ?

So, next learning session will be: how to finish a project.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

So, next learning session will be: how to finish a project.

I am a rabid squirrel, and I will bite you >:3
its still progressing, still trying to keep it as simple as possible and focus on only being productive work... but I'm already trying to create a really really simplified version of my character AI in python... but I swear it directly relates to the main game mechanic, I swear!

 

[WarpedGaming]

Ok, just woke up at midnight. I'm a graveyard type worker mainly because I live in Las Vegas and during summer it's just too hot to be outside at my age now. But let me get to these wonderful replies. Love the feedback guys/gals.

where's the problem? They are having fun, and even the worse games find a public

This is very true and again this isn't intended to bash anyone who is doing it for fun, or for whatever reason. I made this post only for those who ARE looking to make money "or even the hopes of making money" because I believe having a goal when doing something is a good thing. It gives you something to shoot for and gives you a measuring stick to track your progress.

Making money can be looked at as a measure of how well you are doing in "developing" a novel. It's not really about making money "for profit" it's about if someone is willing to fork over some money to continue supporting you in your novel development then it shows someone is REALLY interested in your work and storytelling.

It will not goes really well, because it's really not the place for such discussion.
People on that part of the forum are here to learn, not to theorize.

That's also good and I have nothing against learning either. I understand that people are here for different reasons and that's all good. It's just that "again" I'm in the group with making money "not to support me" but just a measuring stick on how well I'm doing. I mean, yes, you could give a friend or family members your novel and they "might not" read it "and say they did" but when you ask "How was it?" they say "Oh, it was good. I liked it" and that's all you have to go on.

But when a total stranger "that has read AVN's before and understands them" takes time to go to your download site "where ever that is" and download your demo novel and then decide that he want's the complete novel to see how it ends "I'm assuming this person thinks this is a great story and I need to see the outcome "and maybe all the alternate outcomes" then that is "actually" telling you something of meaning. Unlike your friend or family member who just doesn't want to hurt your feelings and is not being honest.

I for one love discussions! I often prefix my (few) posts with [DISCUSSION], and I always have a hard time writing replies because I always ramble, but need to keep my messages concise so people actually read them.

I know what you mean. My post on Discord kind go on and on but I get positive feedback on them which is why I continue to do it when I answer a question. And getting people who are interested enough in paying for the complete novel gives you a scense of you're doing something meaningful "even if you're not making a profit" understand by me saying "making money" doesn't mean I'm out to make a profit. As someone who is also studying filmmaking "which requires writing good stories" it is important "to me" that I can write stories that people like. And AVN's give me that outlet and lets me do my 3D work that I love doing so two birds with one stone "or something like that."

Anyway, I'll stop here for now "as I'll still be up all night working, but I'll see if anyone has any other input into this. I know this discussion isn't going to appeal to a lot of people on here but it is nice to get a response from the few that have. It shows someone else has input, or opinions, on this topic.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

Got quite drunk lmao. More likely again tonight o/

Money isn't necessarily an issue, most of them have a job and it can pay enough for them to be able to afford such expenses. But things are different when you put this in parallel with the sacrifices you had to do. When it come to having fun while spending money, a big party with your friends, a romantic week-end with your significant one, holidays at the sea with your kids, are more rewarding than making an adult game.

Man I can feel this. My most impossible challenge is running against the clock. How to make 1 hour worth 3, and I have not an execptional life (I wish lmao). I guess that why I'm so adamant on pompous retard ditching Daz on sight. On other hand I feel for amateur whos not the job, corner themselves under constant pressure.

but I swear it directly relates to the main game mechanic, I swear!

I swear that oceanic simulation with waves crashing on the boat, that cost me almost a week to learn, do and simulate, is critical for the game. Even if I ditched it because not good enough (cry a bit inside).


Hope y'all having happy holidays o/

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

I MADE IT TO 2023, IM STILL ALIVE \o/
Its the worst bottles cimterry I have ever witnessed \o/

My man Rich & recreation, streets don't forget o/
Hope y'all having a teerible hangover

Mister Modo & Ugly Mac Beer feat. Jessica Fitoussi - Not Afraid.mp3

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

It's a hijaking, it's now stupeflip (vite) thread modos sleeping \o/

 

[anne O'nymous]

I am a rabid squirrel, and I will bite you >:3

I'm not an easy dev, you'll have to take me on a proper date before, you kinky boy.

its still progressing, still trying to keep it as simple as possible and focus on only being productive work... but I'm already trying to create a really really simplified version of my character AI in python... but I swear it directly relates to the main game mechanic, I swear!

It can always be simpler, and it need to be simplified... It will be so easier after this, and what is spending month doing it in regard of the seconds I'll save once I'll be done with this...
Yeah, I know this feeling Hard to goes against it when there isn't a boss or a customer who expect effective results at the end of the day.

I made this post only for those who ARE looking to make money "or even the hopes of making money" because I believe having a goal when doing something is a good thing.

But on the scene, "making money" isn't the goal one should have ; this whatever the reason behind this goal.

The earning numbers aren't the right way to look at the scene, it's the number of abandoned games that is the most significant. All those guys and girls who gave it a try and gave up because their expectation weren't fulfilled, at least not fast enough.
The lower are your expectations, the higher are your chance to not abandon your project. But it lead to the point you raised, with lower expectations generally come lower investment, and therefore lower quality. What mean that it's before everything a question of compromise (your heard me, Saki_Sliz, no__name... and also me ?).

In the end, the best expectation to have when you starts making your game is to have a good time doing it. This generally tend to raise the quality. There's low quality games that succeed, therefore wanting to make money left you with less motivation than wanting to be happy with what you did. It's the difference between "good enough to sell", and "this finally please me". Plus, whatever if there's players who complain, the fact that you did it worth more than the fact they didn't loved it.
But of course, on the player side it lead to an inconsistent adult gaming scene. There's way more creators that have limited capabilities, and at their maximum can only deliver average quality, than there's creators who can amaze us with their skills. It's the reason why personally I don't judge a game accordingly to the sole qualities of its realization, but on the passion I feel coming from its creator ; he did his best and, whatever if it looks a bit bad, I can enjoy that.

It gives you something to shoot for and gives you a measuring stick to track your progress.

And with ~50% of the creators making less than US$ 200/month, you'll quit because you, wrongly, believe that you stagnate and aren't good enough for this.

The earning top 3 is misleading, while the top 5 is really indicative. Adeptus Steve, Heat and Dark Cookie make more than 60,000/month... and the 4th and 5th creators only make 3x,000/month. This while the 31th is the first one to make less than 10,000/month.
Of course, this is just indicative, there's the creators who hide their earning. But it don't really change much. Instead of 3 out of 5,335 creators, who make more than 35,000/month, there what ? 10 of them ? Instead of 0.05% who are really successful, it become 0.18%, and the ones to earn more than 10,000/month pass from 0.5% to what ? 3%, probably less. What an improvement.

If you look at the money, you'll be doomed, even if you don't have an effective need for it, nor an effective goal in terms of amount.
Unless you are really lucky, for the first two years you'll always feel like you aren't doing good enough. And like supports come with time, after the said first two years, you'll believe that you are improving, while in fact it's just that you are finally trusted.

Making money can be looked at as a measure of how well you are doing in "developing" a novel.

How many people give you money is more indicative.

Who's the more successful ? Dark Cookie and his 28,381 patrons for only US$ 66,170/month, or Adeptus Steve and his US$ 118,033/month for only 13,630 patrons ? One earn twice more than the other, but the said other have twice more supporters.
From my point of view, it's Dark Cookie who's the most successful, precisely because there's more peoples who like his creation enough to spare some bucks with him. But I can't deny that Adeptus Steve have more people ready to spare more money, what imply that his game is probably better.

It's not really about making money "for profit" it's about if someone is willing to fork over some money to continue supporting you in your novel development then it shows someone is REALLY interested in your work and storytelling.

It's where you are misled, the Patreon business model do not works like this.

Of course, the more interesting your creation is, the more you'll have patron, but there's mandatory steps before this.

1) You are unknown, therefore you need to earn your future patrons' trust before anything else. And this is totally independent from the interest of you creation. Too many really good games have been abandoned, people don't want to feel like they spend their money on nothing, especially since pledging tend to artificially raise their expectation.

2) Pledging is more an impulse than a rational decision. There's average games that earn a lot of money, not on their interest, but because they appear at the right time, filling a void. It's by example the case for WVM (that is below the actual average, at least before its rewriting).
Players where in wait for a story that isn't too serious (like for City of Broken Dreamers or The DeLuca Family by example), but yet an effective story (unlike the too many generic "I'll bang any girls" that are empty shells once you remove the lewd content). And WVM came at the right time to appeal for those players, whatever the effective quality and interest of the game. Other games came with the same kind of story, with better quality and interest, but were less successful, because they appeared later ; the void was already filled, and players cared less.

I mean, yes, you could give a friend or family members your novel and they "might not" read it "and say they did" but when you ask "How was it?" they say "Oh, it was good. I liked it" and that's all you have to go on.

It's why this forum is appealing for creators.

Look at the number of members with the "developer" green badge. Creators are on a site where their creation is stolen, and if they are happy to be here, it's obviously not because we play their game for free. No, it's because we are people who effectively played their game, and are saying what we really think about it.
The rating by itself isn't a good measure, too biased. But reading the thread, looking at the discussion between players, and the questions they ask you, is a good one. It will show you their involvement, what is the best indicator of the interest your creation raised.
And, of course, once filtered, this feedback is also a good way to know what skill(s) you have to improve.

But when a total stranger "that has read AVN's before and understands them" takes time to go to your download site "where ever that is" and download your demo novel and then decide that he want's the complete novel to see how it ends "I'm assuming this person thinks this is a great story and I need to see the outcome "and maybe all the alternate outcomes" then that is "actually" telling you something of meaning.

Or it mean that he's a pervert who like faping to your story.

And when you look at the plot and interest of the porn movies that are successful, you fall from your pedestal. Those peoples aren't paying you because you are doing something interesting and of quality, but because you are doing something cheap that ease their brain enough for them to concentrate on their masturbation.
And there's no way to discriminate between those and the ones who pay because they effectively are interested, when you just looks at the numbers.

Man I can feel this. My most impossible challenge is running against the clock. How to make 1 hour worth 3, and I have not an execptional life (I wish lmao).

I know this feeling, and being a widow who's children now live on their own, I can probably say that I have near to no life

It's a hijaking, it's now stupeflip (vite) thread modos sleeping \o/

Wait... you're not only trying to steal my grumpiest title, but also my frenchiest one ?

 

[WarpedGaming]

Who's the more successful? Dark Cookie and his 28,381 patrons for only US$ 66,170/month, or Adeptus Steve and his US$ 118,033/month for only 13,630 Patrons? One earns twice more as the other, but the said other has twice more supporters.
From my point of view, it's Dark Cookie who's the most successful, precisely because there are more peoples who like his creation enough to spare some bucks with him. But I can't deny that Adeptus Steve has more people ready to spare more money, which implies that his game is probably better.

Yes I agree, and there is another person "at least on Patreon" that is between Adeptus and DarkCookie and that is Bulgin Senpai who creates lewd 3D animations, D and such but yea DarkCookie ranking #1 in Adult and #12 in total on Patreon can't really complain about that. And also Adeptus ranking #6th in Adult and 36th overall I mean that is an accomplishment to be proud of indeed.

If you look at the money, you'll be doomed, even if you don't have an effective need for it, nor an effective goal in terms of amount.

And I agree here too. I keep saying "I'm not in it for the money" if I make some then fine. I love working with Blender, Daz etc and creating stuff and passing the time because I do nothing but stay up during the day "or night, whichever suits me" and sleep. I mean when you are retired and old "and not in the best of health" then you have to do something that keeps you occupied and mind working.

But I appreciate the responses and opinions and hopefully others who read it come away with at least something of benefit.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I hope you all had a good morning after a shallow eve.
Btw. i drank myself with screwdrivers into the night. Worked for me.

Yes I agree, and there is another person "at least on Patreon" that is between Adeptus and DarkCookie and that is Bulgin Senpai who creates lewd 3D animations, D and such but yea DarkCookie ranking #1 in Adult and #12 in total on Patreon can't really complain about that. And also Adeptus ranking #6th in Adult and 36th overall I mean that is an accomplishment to be proud of indeed.

That part actually really amazes me. I always wonder what makes people toss in money for a long time.
Last time, not sure where, i seen a dev offer a custom scene for $20000 Dollar.
I'll guess there is money to be made.

Personally, i am not sure if i like where that is going. I think it loses some of it's spirit, if there was any to begin with.
But hey, people seem to have money to put it in some good use.

Animations are one thing i even less understand. I can't say i enjoy them as they remind me of freaking gif clips but i am on the wrong side.

On the other hand, if you have a lot time to spare, this may be it. Clearly people like to support their dev.

 

[Deleted member 1121028]

I know this feeling, and being a widow who's children now live on their own, I can probably say that I have near to no life

I'm quite a clown but if true (it's internet), my sincere condoleance, I didn't know.

Wait... you're not only trying to steal my grumpiest title, but also my frenchiest one ?

My "grumpiest" title is greatly exagerated I can give you that. Piss off the right people.
My frenchness one? Beware \o/.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I'm quite a clown but if true (it's internet), my sincere condoleance, I didn't know.

I'm maybe lying about me sometimes (sorry girls, in fact I'm not 1m90 and wasn't a fashion model in a previous life), best way to keep a bit of privacy than to live on another town by example, but I wouldn't on something as serious as that. Will be 12 years in few days, life can be a bitch, but well, sad to say, but you learn to live with it.

My "grumpiest" title is greatly exagerated I can give you that. Piss off the right people.
My frenchness one? Beware \o/.

Well, I feel less lonely, but fear for our reputation, two grumpy frenchies...

 

[coffeeaddicted]

I am not french nor grumpy but the internet is the fakest place to be. This board included. Everyone is pretending be something they are not. InstaGram is probably the most fake place to be.