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f95 Community Game Idea

Praisejesus

Newbie
Aug 5, 2017
60
112
I'm talking MVP (Minimum Viable Product), such as if I want to make a gambling AI, I'll write it in python, run 10 million simulations, graph the results and see if the results match expectations. No user interface or testing if playing feels good or not. Note, python's default RNG is absolute garbage! Considering how often I've worked with game projects over the past 13 years in both personal and academic settings, I am fairly familiar with all the points you're making. I think I remember writing a similar wall of text nearly 7 years ago when I found this community. Forgive me for not making a more detailed reply to your well-written comments. I don't mean to devalue what you have to say, I think it is a great collection of notes and references, and I can tell you've been around the community for some time since your familiar with issues such as what happened with breeding season. Just right now I don't want to get caught up in writing a well-crafted wall of text because these comments sizes are already intimidating for anyone new who wants to jump in, and I have to leave to go to work soon.


While I don't want to sound like a downer, I also don't want to give false hope.

As it is now, I hardly spend more than 6 or so hours a week derping around with game making and art. Of course, I have more free time than that, but I mostly spend it either sleeping or messing around with other stuff (friends, family, youtube 90% of the time). I've already gone through that phase in my life where I work really hard for my passion projects, working late nights, starting new projects but only never to finish them and instead starting on the next cool idea that catches my attention. I started to feel terrible. I would have a week or 2 of great progress, new code, features, engines, art, etc. but then after that things start to feel wrong. Naturally, the process of creation is slow, it was less fun and cool, and felt more like work or a job but I still wouldn't have much to show (aka dark work), so I couldn't get others interested either to keep myself motivated.

Then there was the perfectionist issues, wanting to share things to help keep myself motivated, but nothing was good enough to share. Then there comes the questions of your own self worth, the practicality of the project, etc. So one takes a break to try not to burn out, to come to it later. I never mastered that last part because either I would make new obligations that took priority so things would go on the back burner, or if I did have tho motivation to work, it was because I had a new idea.

So I don't plan to 'work' on any major project. Right now I am taking a new 'casual' approach: where I work on things, but no real long term goals. Just one mechanic or piece at a time. just work on what seems cool at the time. I balance this with doing all the other things that interest me and keep me spiritually satisfied (ie playing online games with friends, a day with the family, build a small robot), and making nsfw games is just one single piece of the whole picture that is me. As cool as game-making can be, I don't think it works to have one aspect of oneself just take over your life.

So you can certainly talk to me, and we could work on stuff every now and then, but this may be a once in a week or 2 type-of-thing (at least at the rate things are going for me), but you probably won't be able to ask me to do something like 'make a simple title screen' and expect it to be done in 2 weeks. But I'll certainly play around and test things out, make test art, etc. as for complete working code or systems, that takes a lot longer.


I could write a whole wall of text just on that idea. Trying to make something for everyone is probably the most damaging thing I think can happen to a project, in terms of the final quality of the project, the amount of work needed, etc.
Alright lets base one off your gambling idea?

Mario Parody art jam

Contest rules: create any character from the Mario universe in a sexual situation, winning creations will be compiled into into a parody strip poker game!

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Not enough people joining your art session change the theme, change the audience, create a strip poker game based off of art from the fan section ect.

This is an other project that would take less then 48hours to complete.

Start small, game development should be fun and something that inspires you to create unique art.
 
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barronsat

Newbie
May 14, 2017
62
28
Thanks again for the continued replies!

Saki_Sliz no worries, totally understood on your situation. As DaClown mentions, personal health and sanity first :) so you do you and we can figure things out as they happen.

mickydoo - agree with the issues you bring up. As mentioned, I think we all know how things can break out when multiple voices are included, and indeed it is impossible to please everyone. The key would be definitely (once again noted by DaClown) to hash out as many of these decisions first in a pre-production phase.

Praisejesus I think the format you bring up with the collab game is helpful. But I think we want to dive deeper beyond just that, so that it's not a "48 hours" collab project (Not that there is anything wrong with that at all), but more something that is carefully planned out so that it can still feel somewhat fresh (without going overboard into a fully committed giant project that ends up dying).

So I think all these ideas from everyone can be combined into planning out a potential game first to test.

The people who are apt to start projects are not the same people who should produce the project or finish the project. This is a well documented thing in corporate culture. The person or people who start a venture do not generally have the appropriate skills for day to day operation of the resulting corporation or productions. Vice versa. It is possible for operations people to start a venture, but it is a very different skill set and often results in failure.
Very true with this. At least for myself, I'm coming from the production & business side of the movie industry, so I would likely contribute best as an organizer. I wouldn't be too helpful to the development/art side of things (though simple design needs I could do), but I'd be able to help with maintaining the workflow and process of the project.

That being said, I'll just throw something on the wall to see what sticks. I made a google drive folder with some folders within to organize a potential game. but to start off, made this doc:



For anyone here to add their suggestions for a potential test game to make.

Would love to see any potential ideas you all have. Again this is a non-committal discussion so, it's all just ideas at this point! :)

I threw in my suggestion of Sakyubasu No Tatakai as an example, though I'm not tied to this by any means. That's just one game I remember from old forums on Legend of Krystal being popular. Personally I think there's an oversaturation of Renpy & Visual Novel type games (of course, a lot of this is due to those engines being accessible to new developers who want to use an existing framework), but I'm open to whatever.
 
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DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
273
[...]

That being said, I'll just throw something on the wall to see what sticks. I made a google drive folder with some folders within to organize a potential game. but to start off, made this doc:



For anyone here to add their suggestions for a potential test game to make.

[...]
Document requires authentication from you and effectively eliminates the ability of people to anonymously participate. Also, using Google to collaborate on works potentially exposes people or organizations to investigation and prosecution under US jurisdictional law. At the least, Google documents can be subpoenaed in US courts, warrants obtained, and require Google to surrender that information on demand under numerous legal bases in a country that is presently ruled by gross corruption of a puritanical political party.

[...]

Praisejesus I think the format you bring up with the collab game is helpful. But I think we want to dive deeper beyond just that, so that it's not a "48 hours" collab project (Not that there is anything wrong with that at all), but more something that is carefully planned out so that it can still feel somewhat fresh (without going overboard into a fully committed giant project that ends up dying).

[...]

At least for myself, I'm coming from the production & business side of the movie industry, so I would likely contribute best as an organizer. I wouldn't be too helpful to the development/art side of things (though simple design needs I could do), but I'd be able to help with maintaining the workflow and process of the project.

[...]

Personally I think there's an oversaturation of Renpy & Visual Novel type games (of course, a lot of this is due to those engines being accessible to new developers who want to use an existing framework), but I'm open to whatever.
I think that Praisejesus's format is great for rapid prototyping once or as some kind of organizational structure is established. I have in mind a way of setting up a crowdfunded/crowdsourced game development process where everything is setup in inter-connectable modules. The idea is to give the people doing the crowdfunding and the people who are doing the crowdsourcing the ability to identify where their interests and material support intersect, so in theory, the game can be developed according to where demand and supply meet and agree.

I also have in mind that this structure allows for parallel development and divergent development processes where maybe teams come up with things that are successful in their own right independent of the larger project, so the teams split their development off to spin off something considerably different and increasingly incompatible with the original project. Like splitting an RTS off of a Renpy Romance VN.

One of the big problems I have noticed is how overly ambitious projects can get and how overly cautious projects can be. When projects are overly ambitious they setup up all kinds of systems and subsystems that over extend their development capabilities, so the game progresses at an ever slowing pace as more and more is added and more needs to be maintained or updated.

Portals of Phereon is an excellent example of a project that is right on the razor edge of "overly ambitious"; it has tons of systems and a moderate amount of pretty good concept art, but almost nothing is polished. It has a lot to do and a lot for a lot of people. However, one of the on going complaints throughout the otherwise supportive community is that each update changes major things for everyone and some parts of the community vastly prefer when it was a different way or when they didn't have to deal with X, Y, or Z newly added mechanics or narratives or characters.

The common solution for large scale projects where you want a maximum number of players to be able to customize the parameters and content to their preferences or the preferences of their play groups is to make the game highly moddable.

Overly cautious projects generally have too many implicit or explicit constraints and end up locking themselves into a condition where by the architecture or design methods the game can only expand in so many ways before all avenues of development are closed. This can be really good as a condition for rapid prototypes that are meant to demonstrate a proof of concept, but it can be a huge problem when a proof of concept turns out to be fantastic but there's no room for growth except to start over and completely rebuild which typically results in an overly ambitious project with kitchen-sink architectures and often fails to reproduce the proof of concept model faithfully. Common to overly constraint project is there is a single dev who doesn't want to work with anyone else or delegate the development load appropriately to other people or delegate the business and operations side of things to someone more qualified or pay artists what they're worth for contracted commissions.



I generally think that starting a project from Renpy is going to be a mistake if it is not explicitly clear that Renpy is only for prototyping the actual finished game and not the finished engine the game will run on. Renpy is fine for linear VNs or well-managed branching VNs with relatively small file-sized assets and few to no-dynamic scenes or main-loops; it is not particularly great for proper main-looped game designs with several gigabytes of dynamically animated 3D assets and thousands of animated models on a 3D terrain (whether Skyrim-like or Spring-RTS-Engine-Like).

Renpy can operate on top of another engine and provide the VN or character dialogue interface with minimal performance hits. I think using Renpy to develop the narratives of the game in parallel with another game engine which develops the game mechanics and game play is potentially useful.
 
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barronsat

Newbie
May 14, 2017
62
28
Ah, link has been updated! Was meant to be a public shared link, not sure why it defaulted to the locked link.



This should work for public usage with editor permissions now anonymously.

Fair point about using Google though. I'll look into any other collaboration tools that would allow a free and easy workflow, though do you have any suggestions off the top of your head?

I agree that ideally the balance is found between being overly ambitious and overly constrained. I mean the goal is definitely to not focus on anything too ambitious at the moment, if this even picks up. It would err on the safer side of being a simpler, more manageable project - at least to start off as a test project.

And likewise, I'm not particularly fond of the Renpy / VN at the moment personally, so I'd opt for another route if the team agrees.

That poses a question to the forum: are there any devs potentially interested in this endeavor?
 
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desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,037
13,949
Damn dudes I didn't expect such informative, wholesome, and interesting discourse when clicking on this.

Thank god I didn't shitpost about any such project failing due to the NTR civil war.
 
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DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
273
That poses a question to the forum: are there any devs potentially interested in this endeavor?
I've tried to outline that one of the issues of organization of this kind of project is the question of incentives. If people are going to get paid immediately then there is incentive for monetarily motivated people to join and contribute (or at least do whatever it takes to get the cash and walk away). If people have a vague non-legally binding pseudo-promise to get paid at some indefinite future date or the possibility of some kind of remuneration (IE profit sharing for something that may very well not break even or may even be liable for debts) then that is very weak incentive to join or contribute or commit to anything at all. Generally, when I've tried to start projects on that latter condition no one joins or those who do don't stick around for significant amounts of time.

Anyone who has the skills to implement a game like those demonstrated by Praisejesus has the means to potentially make a non-zero amount of money based on rolling a proof of concept game and posting links to their Patreon across a dozen different sites.

If the project is a pure passion project and expectations of any kind of money exchange for goods or services explicitly ruled out then the project has to light a particular fire for a specific cross-section of people of different skills and interests. This is where generic projects are going to fail big time; you can't fuel a passion project with "Tell my wife, 'Hello.'" 1600311161821.png

And artists and designers have every right to laugh at offers to get/give them "exposure". Especially from a pirate cove like the F95 community.

One really good example of a surprising success for a community designed and developed game is . Produced by participants of /b/ on 4Chan. I am continually surprised that thread I saw in the wee hours of the morning many years ago actually went on to produce one of the better dating sims I've every encountered and played. It was not without its drama and failures and hurdles in the iterations that finally became Four Leaf Studios. Its success however was driven by long standing that had been produced many years before 4Chan became a thing; this acted as the unifying vision for the people that ultimately participated in the project and produced something faithful to the original concept. Astoundingly out of character for the usual stuff produced by /b/.

Usual pre-production thing is to take stock of what assets are immediately available for a project and what can be done to gain the interest and support of vital people for the project. We're doing some of that here currently.

What do we have to offer?
 

barronsat

Newbie
May 14, 2017
62
28
Agree as always ha. Hard to incentivize strangers to participate in a project without any financial gain. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, a project like this most likely wouldn't be anyone's passion project either, as the idea itself is to be more of a community based thing rather than 1-3 people's individual passion project.

And I totally get you - as someone in the film industry, working with freelancers often, it's painful whenever you see jobs that are offering simply "exposure".

I feel this project would need to sit sort of in the middle of the spectrum between 1) hey, I'm offering X rate to you as a full-time developer and 2) hey, please work for free! - as the ownership wouldn't necessarily fall to any single person / team. The idea of having having come crowdfunded backing could perhaps come in the future, depending on the success of the initiative. Hell, if enough traction is gained, perhaps f95 could pick it up as an official side project even.

"What do we have to offer?"

I think that's a great starting point - as you mention, it's likely that an idea like this would need a sort of kitbashed demo attempt made using existing artwork and assets, just to further attract others and prove that the process is workable.

I'll keep monitoring to see if anyone else ends up putting in any suggestions/ideas for games they'd like to see get made or remade. In the meantime, I'll also dig around the forums to see what people (both dev and artists) are hanging around currently that could be interested.
 
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DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
273
[...] And on the opposite end of the spectrum, a project like this most likely wouldn't be anyone's passion project [...]

The idea of having some crowdfunded backing could perhaps come in the future, depending on the success of the initiative. [...]
I think that the biggest selling point that can be made for a community project is an appeal to the collective passions of the dev and player community that participates here. The only question is what collection of passions can be combined and still leave open opportunities for people to materially benefit from their participation and contributions.

I think planning on crowdfunding from the start is prudent even if it might be somewhat difficult to setup or ultimately rejected by what ever decision/consensus making process comes about from organization/incorporation. The least that can be done is a mutual promotion and support pact for various contributor's personal Patreons or various team's Patreons or projects.
 

barronsat

Newbie
May 14, 2017
62
28
Ah great resource! Will defnitely take a look through that, I think it's a super helpful compilation to have.
 

PARADOXXXnsfw

Newbie
Dec 17, 2022
25
40
I like this idea, but it sounds like hell to participate in. I'm already incredibly hard to work with because I won't budge from my pretentious artistic vision so I highly doubt anybody would benefit from having me on a team, especially one like this.

Sounds like a fun thing to watch but unfortunately I'll have to pull the edgy "i work alone" card and go brood somewhere else lol