Faster alternatives to Poser/DAZ Studio?

[The Rogue Trader]

Shining armors and swords, newly restored bronze statuettes [...] or even just too much jewelry on the ladies, does not need to reflect your whole world to be credible

Well, I was speaking about the "why the floor is reflecting clouds while we are indoors"* and "why her silver bracelet is black?"** kind of incidents. Sure tweaking the shaders should do the job (good exercise to learn how to tweak shaders, btw), but sometimes I discover the problem only after the rendering, that kind of defeats the purpose of saving time.
Now, if there was a way to have...

-Open MSpaint
-Create a 512*512px square
-Fill with a greyscale color (lets say RGB 100,100,100)
-Save & slot it under environment map

Why couldn't I think about something like this?!?
This solution is sheer genius, I can't wait to put it to work!

Cutting rendering times in half? Heresy i say.

TBH half sounds a bit on the optimistic side to me.
Since I use the "just figures and props on a background, nothing else in the scene" approach every time I can, I can't test often how much of a difference it brings, but I used a section plane with a small series of renders I'm doing now and I gained about 10-15%. And I was cutting away a lot of stuff.

* "Oh, I'm rendering the environment."
** "Oh, I'm NOT rendering the environment."

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Well, culling is as old as 3D engines go, even path tracer. Look for "Iray interior cam" or something among that, it's a camera mounted with 5 section planes (you can show/hide those planes depending on what you're trying to do).

Now if you take the culling road, while fast, it won't make a good render alone. For interior, you may want to setup a neutral ambient lighting env. (ambient that create no shadows nor highlight).

-Open MSpaint
-Create a 512*512px square
-Fill with a greyscale color (lets say RGB 100,100,100)
-Save & slot it under environment map

Cam-culled scene with ambient:
View attachment 2024197

Cam-culled scene, with just few (awful) emissives from the props (scene only):
View attachment 2024214

Exact same scene with a small greyscale map (dome+scene):
View attachment 2024219

Last screen is your 'flat' base of work (3m29s for 4k on 3090 with 95% convergence, px convergence is great for benchmarking). You still have to bring your spotlights/emissives/subject(s) to bring it life. I used this workflow a lot when I had a 2070, to chain render for small dumb prototype.

Also if you use this workflow, don't use guided sampling, it seems subpar on every cases.

I am sorry. I haven't tried it yet but this is useful to me.
I'll get the principle and i have to try that out.
At the moment i realized that many scene i have just don't look right. Lights. It's not that it does not look good, but not real.
I want to have lights go through the windows. I solved that part. Now i am using SY invisible lights which works great.
As for the scenes you described, this makes sense. That's why i declutter my scenes. I realize that i have way to much of a room in the scene.

Your last picture looks fantastic. That is what i want. The mesh lights are just for enhancements i believe. They don't give enough power.

I think this is really useful and probably saves time in the long run.
Got to get this cam though.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[tataugas]

Wait a second...

I am the only one doing 5000 samples a render and wasting 20+ minutes of my time EACH time?

I mean, I need fast renders, like 3/5 minutes but the problem it's even when it's halfway there 2500+ samples it still has "lots" of grain

I do render FULL scene, I really need to start rendering only carachters

 

[The Rogue Trader]

Nah, it happened to me too. I mean, I was doing a series of renders, and some were OK-ish with 2000 iterations, then the characters moved a bit, turned, took the light at a different angle, and suddenly the render was unsalvageable up to 5000 iterations.

 

[JoGio]

I mean, I need fast renders, like 3/5 minutes but the problem it's even when it's halfway there 2500+ samples it still has "lots" of grain

Grain and fireflies are normal and expected in any modern rendering pipeline. That's why most people use denoisers to compensate for not having an ocean-cooled matrix of dedicated render farms.

 

[MissFortune]

I am the only one doing 5000 samples a render and wasting 20+ minutes of my time EACH time?

No. You aren't. But it really depends on what quality you're rendering at.

All things equal, meaning ideal lighting and optimized textures, a render shouldn't need anything more than 5000 samples. That's often for 4K, in my experience. If you're rendering in 1080p, anywhere from 2000 to 2500 samples shouldn't be enough. Whatever isn't fixed (often noise) at that point won't likely get fixed by Daz at all. Which, as mentioned, is where denoisers come in.

like 3/5 minutes but the problem it's even when it's halfway there 2500+ samples it still has "lots" of grain

Without seeing the render or the internal viewport of Daz, it could be and likely is lighting (or lack thereof).

But the actual answer is that you aren't going to get a good render in 3 or 5 minutes. Not unless you're rendering at 1080p with Genesis 3 models using a 3090. You either render for 3/5 minutes, stop the render, and hope an external denoiser does the job at getting rid of what's leftover or you let it render for longer and get a clearer image. Optimizations aside, you're going to have to cut major corners to get renders that fast. For Example:

Original (4K/5900 Samples, canceled render at 3700 or samples):


Now, here's the same render after five minutes:



Here's the denoised version of the untouched five-minute render:



This is an absolute best-case scenario for a denoiser. The lighting is pretty close to ideal, it's not overly bright or dark, and everything in sight given ample light. Which'll always make Iray happy. But take a look at the skin of the original/completed render above (the first one) and the third render (above this paragraph). You lose considerable amounts of detail, but you also lose the noise. For the sake of scientific accuracy (not really), these renders were done on an ASUS TUF 3080 (10GB). So, higher quality renders may come considerably faster than what you're using in your own system.

Point is, either way, you're looking at making some sacrifices if you want fast renders. Either in speed or quality/realism. you just have to decide which is worth more worth it for you.

 

[tataugas]

No. You aren't. But it really depends on what quality you're rendering at.

All things equal, meaning ideal lighting and optimized textures, a render shouldn't need anything more than 5000 samples. That's often for 4K, in my experience. If you're rendering in 1080p, anywhere from 2000 to 2500 samples shouldn't be enough. Whatever isn't fixed (often noise) at that point won't likely get fixed by Daz at all. Which, as mentioned, is where denoisers come in.



Without seeing the render or the internal viewport of Daz, it could be and likely is lighting (or lack thereof).

But the actual answer is that you aren't going to get a good render in 3 or 5 minutes. Not unless you're rendering at 1080p with Genesis 3 models using a 3090. You either render for 3/5 minutes, stop the render, and hope an external denoiser does the job at getting rid of what's leftover or you let it render for longer and get a clearer image. Optimizations aside, you're going to have to cut major corners to get renders that fast. For Example:

Original (4K/5900 Samples, canceled render at 3700 or samples):
View attachment 2041028

Now, here's the same render after five minutes:

View attachment 2041053

Here's the denoised version of the untouched five-minute render:

View attachment 2041056

This is an absolute best-case scenario for a denoiser. The lighting is pretty close to ideal, it's not overly bright or dark, and everything in sight given ample light. Which'll always make Iray happy. But take a look at the skin of the original/completed render above (the first one) and the third render (above this paragraph). You lose considerable amounts of detail, but you also lose the noise. For the sake of scientific accuracy (not really), these renders were done on an ASUS TUF 3080 (10GB). So, higher quality renders may come considerably faster than what you're using in your own system.

Point is, either way, you're looking at making some sacrifices if you want fast renders. Either in speed or quality/realism. you just have to decide which is worth more worth it for you.

That makes perfect sense...

Do you by chance have any good tips for partial renders (scene first, characters ssecondly), I mean, can't get it to work righ at all, the lightning /shadows are "close" enough (with the lower opacity a little on a fast full pre render full of grain technique) but they always seem pasted on so can't really use them that much.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Wait a second...

I am the only one doing 5000 samples a render and wasting 20+ minutes of my time EACH time?

I mean, I need fast renders, like 3/5 minutes but the problem it's even when it's halfway there 2500+ samples it still has "lots" of grain

I do render FULL scene, I really need to start rendering only carachters

You should try Denoiser. That's how i do it at least.
I don't use DAZ denoise but instead that program to do it. Takes seconds. Results look good to me.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

No. You aren't. But it really depends on what quality you're rendering at.

All things equal, meaning ideal lighting and optimized textures, a render shouldn't need anything more than 5000 samples. That's often for 4K, in my experience. If you're rendering in 1080p, anywhere from 2000 to 2500 samples shouldn't be enough. Whatever isn't fixed (often noise) at that point won't likely get fixed by Daz at all. Which, as mentioned, is where denoisers come in.



Without seeing the render or the internal viewport of Daz, it could be and likely is lighting (or lack thereof).

But the actual answer is that you aren't going to get a good render in 3 or 5 minutes. Not unless you're rendering at 1080p with Genesis 3 models using a 3090. You either render for 3/5 minutes, stop the render, and hope an external denoiser does the job at getting rid of what's leftover or you let it render for longer and get a clearer image. Optimizations aside, you're going to have to cut major corners to get renders that fast. For Example:

Original (4K/5900 Samples, canceled render at 3700 or samples):
View attachment 2041028

Now, here's the same render after five minutes:

View attachment 2041053

Here's the denoised version of the untouched five-minute render:

View attachment 2041056

This is an absolute best-case scenario for a denoiser. The lighting is pretty close to ideal, it's not overly bright or dark, and everything in sight given ample light. Which'll always make Iray happy. But take a look at the skin of the original/completed render above (the first one) and the third render (above this paragraph). You lose considerable amounts of detail, but you also lose the noise. For the sake of scientific accuracy (not really), these renders were done on an ASUS TUF 3080 (10GB). So, higher quality renders may come considerably faster than what you're using in your own system.

Point is, either way, you're looking at making some sacrifices if you want fast renders. Either in speed or quality/realism. you just have to decide which is worth more worth it for you.

Well, that looks great.

The way i understand DAZ rendering engine, that it works, using an analogy, like the terminator. It goes on forever.
The number 5000 seems to me arbitrary, meaning it's the default. Does it mean it is better than say 4000?
I don't know.
Considering that you can render over night, its alright to render with higher samples.
When you sleep, you don't really care how long it takes.

I am using the denoiser and so far i am ok with it. Though, i think that the images look denoised rather, how to say this, sterilized.
I know that on my machine it will take about 30 minutes for 5000 samples. Still, i have to learn to use the Iray plane to cut that in half.

 

[coffeeaddicted]

Ok, i did my selftest.
I have to admit, if you try to render scenes that are dim, denoiser is not your friend and low samples are just bad.

What have i used.
Ok, this is what i have used.

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This is one figur which is
Krashwerk Morgan

On which i dumped bimbofication but nothing really heavy. No additional texture besides what came with it.

So, the room has it's own lights. Of course it's dark indoors. So added a sportlight to make sunlight.
On top of that i overexposed by 100%. This gives enough light feel to the scene. Looks more realistic that way as well.

Now, the first example is 500 samples that take about 5 minutes. After denoised and voila. Looks like shit.

After 5000 samples, Firefly on and post denoising all the way.
That took 30 minutes on my machine. The results look way better but, i have to admit, it's worth it. Now i have no 3090 but a 3060. This isn't a master blaster PC i have but good enough.
So take your pick.

I think denoiser and low samples have a place too. Especially if everything is well lit. At least i think. Haven't tried that.

Ok, here the samples. I so love that scene

Spoiler: Effen Evidence

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[MissFortune]

That makes perfect sense...

Do you by chance have any good tips for partial renders (scene first, characters ssecondly), I mean, can't get it to work righ at all, the lightning /shadows are "close" enough (with the lower opacity a little on a fast full pre render full of grain technique) but they always seem pasted on so can't really use them that much.

So, just to be clear, you mean rendering the characters and background separately, then putting them together in Photoshop/Another photo editor? I don't generally do this myself, but the issue that arises from rendering in layers (so to speak) is that you lose the reflection/ambient lighting created by objects around the model that aren't necessarily on camera by turning them off. The floor in the render below is putting a lot of work in brightening the rest of the scene from the lighting above, for example. That said, I don't know how those who practice this style of rendering tend to circumvent that, so someone may have a more appropriate answer in that regard. But something of a hack in this regard is spot rendering characters over a the environment.

So, I already have the lighting and general environment ready to go for this render below.



So, in order to do what I mentioned above, you're going to turn off your figure/model, but keep the lighting and environment intact. Excuse all the noise as I'm just quickly rendering these to show you the process if it's something you'd like to use.



So, once you have your background rendered to a point of your liking, you'll want to turn your figure back on. Now, keep your figure and lighting/environment on. Now go to "Tool Settings" (Window > Panes (Tabs) > Tool Settings if you don't see it on your screen, iirc.) > Spot Render > Select "New Window". Now you should have a camera icon when you mouse over the viewport. From here you want to left-click+hold and drag over your desired model. Make sure her entirety (within the constraints of the viewport) is within the box you drag out for the model. If you mess up, right-click (while still holding the left-click you made earlier) while in the viewport and it'll clear the selection you dragged out.

All said and done, you should have something like this:



Now you take it into Photoshop, drag the background into Photoshop first (or on a document you've already opened at your preferred size. Just keep aspect ratios in mind. If you render at 16:9, make sure your document size is at 16:9. Same goes for 4:3 or 1:1. This allows to scale up or down as needed without cropping parts of the image off or squishing it to make it fit.

All finished, you should get something to this effect:


Every now and then, you may get a black box around a spot render. I didn't get one here, but I do get them at times. Any competent Photo editing software that offers masks (in this case a layer mask with Photoshop), should be able to get rid of them fairly quickly. That said, as I mentioned above, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to rendering in separate layers, so might want to wait for someone else on that.

 

[tataugas]

So, just to be clear, you mean rendering the characters and background separately, then putting them together in Photoshop/Another photo editor? I don't generally do this myself, but the issue that arises from rendering in layers (so to speak) is that you lose the reflection/ambient lighting created by objects around the model that aren't necessarily on camera by turning them off. The floor in the render below is putting a lot of work in brightening the rest of the scene from the lighting above, for example. That said, I don't know how those who practice this style of rendering tend to circumvent that, so someone may have a more appropriate answer in that regard. But something of a hack in this regard is spot rendering characters over a the environment.

So, I already have the lighting and general environment ready to go for this render below.

View attachment 2042457

So, in order to do what I mentioned above, you're going to turn off your figure/model, but keep the lighting and environment intact. Excuse all the noise as I'm just quickly rendering these to show you the process if it's something you'd like to use.

View attachment 2042465

So, once you have your background rendered to a point of your liking, you'll want to turn your figure back on. Now, keep your figure and lighting/environment on. Now go to "Tool Settings" (Window > Panes (Tabs) > Tool Settings if you don't see it on your screen, iirc.) > Spot Render > Select "New Window". Now you should have a camera icon when you mouse over the viewport. From here you want to left-click+hold and drag over your desired model. Make sure her entirety (within the constraints of the viewport) is within the box you drag out for the model. If you mess up, right-click (while still holding the left-click you made earlier) while in the viewport and it'll clear the selection you dragged out.

All said and done, you should have something like this:

View attachment 2042470

Now you take it into Photoshop, drag the background into Photoshop first (or on a document you've already opened at your preferred size. Just keep aspect ratios in mind. If you render at 16:9, make sure your document size is at 16:9. Same goes for 4:3 or 1:1. This allows to scale up or down as needed without cropping parts of the image off or squishing it to make it fit.

All finished, you should get something to this effect:


Every now and then, you may get a black box around a spot render. I didn't get one here, but I do get them at times. Any competent Photo editing software that offers masks (in this case a layer mask with Photoshop), should be able to get rid of them fairly quickly. That said, as I mentioned above, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to rendering in separate layers, so might want to wait for someone else on that.

I've used that but only to change an expression or blink the eyes or something like that, I tend to make renders where the figures ocupy almost all the scene so spot render won't do much for me sadly

 

[ShamanLab]

Hi!

Honey Select are pretty fast. And there is different models non only asian people. There is also another disadvantages, like unorganised chaotic mods and models pool, etc. So, sometimes it's hard to find something specific.

And another Illusion engine 'Koikatsu' also providing interesting visuals.