HTML Abandoned Female Agent [v1.20.1p] [Crushstation]

[Majus]

I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of people in this thread who are still subscribed to him. Honestly, I would be surprised more than a handful of us are paying him anything at all currently. The reason why some of us are unhappy about this isn't because we're losing money now, but rather because we lost money on this in the past. For example, I supported him for quite a while, until he did his first big reboot of the game and I realized it wasn't going to go anywhere for a long time.

I would bet that most people who still come to this thread are like me, who comes back every once in a while to see if anything has progressed yet. It never does, but it is amusing to read the justifications for why not.

I called you milquetoast because what you're saying about Crush comes off as a defense of him, even if you're not intending it that way. Your argument seems to be that he's just incompetent, while perhaps having good intentions in the sense that he's still ostensibly trying to develop the game. The argument from most of us here is that game is a scam, regardless of whether or not Crush is intentionally running the project as a scam. The fact that you're taking the fence-sitting position of not supporting him but also not being against him is what makes your stance on this milquetoast.

Thanks for elaborating! And I see that you understood what my point/stance is. I didin't think that someone would call me "milquetoast", for I basically called 85% of people here Karens. I wonder if there is a way to make my point more clear somehow.
And I do asusme that most people here aren't donating, nor they should IMHO. It's mostly just a witch hunt, people venting dissapointment and people projecting their seething contempt. I've seen this multiple times with multiple games... Summer's Gone and/or Where It All Began is being revorked for the N-th time now... It really is dissapointing. But, supporting unfinished projects comes with risk, which I'd argue isn't that hard to consider. I've donated for a dead game myself, but at that point that was on me. Nobody was holding me at gunpoint, nor this game's developer is, as some here might suggest. *shrugs* Cheers.

I've heard the economic term "sunk cost"—it's when you invest money in something but don't see any results (though in theory, you could get the final result). Since you've already spent the money but want to get your investment back, you keep investing. I have a simpler term for this: "the casino effect," which apparently happens to Patreon subscribers. You pay the creator, and then the creator gives you content, but at some point you start getting nothing but lip service explaining why there's no content, but you've already invested so much, so you keep paying.

There is "sunk cost" as an economic term, but what you're describing is "sunk cost fallacy", which is a bit different. In this fallacy it's not about getting your money back, since that's impossible. It's about someone emotionally justifying their past investments by sheer action of continuing investing, even if it's clearly not worthwhile.

Casino effect is not abount the size of past investment, but about psychological addiction that stems from unpredictability of outcome. Think of typical gambling addiction or people being stuck in relationships that seesaw between mostly toxic and occasionally positive.

 

[Spawk]

There is "sunk cost" as an economic term, but what you're describing is "sunk cost fallacy", which is a bit different. In this fallacy it's not about getting your money back, since that's impossible. It's about someone emotionally justifying their past investments by sheer action of continuing investing, even if it's clearly not worthwhile.

The person who was so diligently digging into the words didn't notice that I was talking about getting results, and not about money?

Casino effect is not abount the size of past investment, but about psychological addiction that stems from unpredictability of outcome. Think of typical gambling addiction or people being stuck in relationships that seesaw between mostly toxic and occasionally positive.

Really, a casino has nothing to do with paying an author who might release something, or who might say they wrote two lines, or who might say they've erased everything they've done, or who might announce it's time to restart the project from scratch?

And of course, in a casino, it doesn't matter that you've spent some money and want it back.

I've donated for a dead game myself, but at that point that was on me.

Well, what can I say, just that I understand the format of your messages: “no one is to blame for anything except you evil and toxic people, how can you laugh at idiots who are scammed and at the bastards who scam idiots?”

 

[Majus]

The person who was so diligently digging into the words didn't notice that I was talking about getting results, and not about money?

Really, a casino has nothing to do with paying an author who might release something, or who might say they wrote two lines, or who might say they've erased everything they've done, or who might announce it's time to restart the project from scratch?

And of course, in a casino, it doesn't matter that you've spent some money and want it back.

Well, what can I say, just that I understand the format of your messages: “no one is to blame for anything except you evil and toxic people, how can you laugh at idiots who are scammed and at the bastards who scam idiots?”

I don't understand your first line. You're constantly talking about money, people still supporting the game on patreon, scams and so on...? Anyway...

On the casino part, I'm just giving you the definition of what the "casino effect" is... Now, I think you're drawing a parallel on this developer's patreon page being equivalent to a casino, corrent? If so, then yeah, I guess I kind of agree. But maybe a better example would be stock investments. The company/devloper might do something productive with your investment and you'll benefit or all of it will go downhill and you'll be left with nothing. It is a gamble, indeed. Since technically/legally people are donating, so there is no binding contract to deliver a future product. I'm glad that we're getting closer to figuring out that supporting a developer with an unfinished project is a gamble (if all you care about is finished product).
If instead you want to pay money and be guaranteed a product, then may I suggest you to consider purchasing a finished product? Instead of donating money to some random developer on the internet...? lol

About the part on the message format. If we're discussing about the game's/project's sucess then we defenitely have a person to blame for the lack of it. Obvioulsy, it's the developer. Which I assume we all agree is lazy and incompetent, arguably malicious.

We can also discuss community and it's hysterical tantrums too. An individual receiving donations, is not a felon by default as many here imply ... with a "scam" being thrown around. Also, people throwing fits over other people's finiancial decisions is also pretty petty. People have a liberty to spend their money how they want (for the most part), I'm not sure why that's so triggering to some. Why do you think you should have a say in how other people spend their own money? Who are you, lol? And if you think that the dev is a scammer, then report it. He's based in UK, so he could get prison time if he's actually scamming people. Go for it.

Edit: Here. This is the supposed "scam" page.

Spoiler: Image

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We're looking at the 1 rupee tier:
- The base game is free.
- You support the project/dev.
- The donation provides a cosmetic upgrade to the game with bigger 80085, a "back button" and ability to have miltiple kinks. So, essentialy people get base game "plus".
- You gain Discord access.

So now I'm wondering, which of these things is not delivered? Is money donated going to someone else than this game's dev? Is the game's download link missing? Discord server is down? Big boob'a not displaying? Where is the scam? And how come people are labelled as idiots for paying 1 rupee for big boob'a? What gives...

 

[Spawk]

I don't understand your first line.

Why I'm not surprised.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Edit: Here. This is the supposed "scam" page.

Spoiler: Image

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

We're looking at the 1 rupee tier:
- The base game is free.
- You support the project/dev.
- The donation provides a cosmetic upgrade to the game with bigger 80085, a "back button" and ability to have miltiple kinks. So, essentialy people get base game "plus".
- You gain Discord access.

So now I'm wondering, which of these things is not delivered? Is money donated going to someone else than this game's dev? Is the game's download link missing? Discord server is down? Big boob'a not displaying? Where is the scam? And how come people are labelled as idiots for paying 1 rupee for big boob'a? What gives...

I would highly suggest you look at actual cases of scams (as in, "situations where the scammer was declared and condemned as such by a court") so that you can hopefully understand that scams go beyond "It does what it says, by a technicality!"

Or, another way to look at it: If laws/terms and conditions/your equivalent document was as easy to apply as you suggest that it is, then we wouldn't need lawyers. After all, it would just be "apply the law, the law tells you how much time in prison/how much to pay as a fine"

 

[Majus]

Why I'm not surprised.

Because everything is very simple and white and black in your worldview. That would be my guess...

I would highly suggest you look at actual cases of scams (as in, "situations where the scammer was declared and condemned as such by a court") so that you can hopefully understand that scams go beyond "It does what it says, by a technicality!"

Or, another way to look at it: If laws/terms and conditions/your equivalent document was as easy to apply as you suggest that it is, then we wouldn't need lawyers. After all, it would just be "apply the law, the law tells you how much time in prison/how much to pay as a fine"

I have to admit, I haven't really looked into actual scam cases, I read trough the types of scams on Wikipedia.
And aren't lawyers esentially doing just what you described? They're people that know the law, how it's applied and that's pretty much it. In Europe, courts are more technical, than a trial by jury in USA would be.

I argued about the scam part earlier and it boiled down to three main things: proof of intent to defraud (which is hard/impossible to prove in this case, even if it exists at all), Patreon being a donation platform and the game being hosted free of charge. It's not like the dev sold pre-orders to the game and then dissapeared without delivering the product. The game is free and donations are voluntary gifts by definition.

--------

I have a feeling that this is not about a crime being commited, but just general human nature and pettiness.
Some time ago there was a streamer that shut down part of her community, for some delulu community members decided that they donated enough money to be entitled to the streamer's nudes... Essentially a case of blackmail/extortion, while using donations as a tool/justification. What a crowd of thugs...

This situation seems to be pretty similar. People donate money, which makes them believe that the developer is now their employee, which they can punish/slander/whatever, since the developer/employee didin't deliver what the community/boss requested them to do.
We "paid" him his "wage", but he did not perform, therefore scam.

Super "eww". In both cases. Ehh, I'm tired of this crap... lol

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Because everything is very simple and white and black in your worldview. That would be my guess...


I have to admit, I haven't really looked into actual scam cases, I read trough the types of scams on Wikipedia.
And aren't lawyers esentially doing just what you described? They're people that know the law, how it's applied and that's pretty much it. In Europe, courts are more technical, than a trial by jury in USA would be.

I argued about the scam part earlier and it boiled down to three main things: proof of intent to defraud (which is hard/impossible to prove in this case, even if it exists at all), Patreon being a donation platform and the game being hosted free of charge. It's not like the dev sold pre-orders to the game and then dissapeared without delivering the product. The game is free and donations are voluntary gifts by definition.

I have a feeling that this is not about a crime being commited, but just human nature and pettiness.
Some time ago there was a streamer that shut downpart of her community, for some delulul community members decided that they donated enough money to be entitled to the streamer's nudes. Essentially a case of blackmail, while using donations as a justification.

This situation seems to be very similar. People donate money, which makes them believe that the developer is now their employee, which they can punish/slander/whatever, since the developer/employee didin't deliver what the community/boss requested them to do.

Super rotten. In both cases.

I wish it was that simple, I'm not a lawyer, I don't "like" lawyers. But again: If law was as simple as "If you steal a loaf of bread you will have to pay a fine of 1.5x the cost of the loaf", we wouldn't need lawyers, a spreadsheet would be enough to calculate the verdict.

You can for example take a look at some recent huge scams like Theranos or WeWork to see how it is possible to, from an outsider's point of view, fulfill all the requirements while also ultimately being a scam*.

"It's just a donation" is one of those things that lawyers look into. If "it's just a donation" actually worked to skirt the law, we could do so much "business" with it.

"Oh no dear judge, I wasn't *selling* my car and avoiding taxes you see. My friend donated to me as a way to congratulate me for getting a new job, and since I won't be needing my car in this new job, I happened to leave the car at his door and give him the keys"

* If you care about technicalities, "scam" might not be the legal word, but it's the colloquial one to describe it.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

Allright... I won't defend this game on not being a scam, since that would be absurd. If people want to claim that, they have to prove it, not the other way around... How is this game/dev a scam?
And I'm not really interested in researching scams in general. If you have some specific details, please share them here.
Donations in general are not tax exempt, so your example is not a thing. Donated money is taxed. Same as donated cars would be taxed.

Donations are taxed, depending on the country, and depending on the relationship between the parties of the donation, but, universally, donations are always a different (and lower) tax than the one that would fit for sales/services. Which you know, is the definition of tax evasion/

Also if you want to try and be pedantic, at least be smarter about it; some donations (typically those that are for an NGO/charity) can result in a tax benefit...which is also another scam that lawyers look into!* Because, if "your friend" starts a "charity", you "donate" some money to said charity, and then he happens to paint your house, well, let's just say that lawyers have also looked into this kind of thing before.

*No, I'm not saying "all charities are scams", I am saying that "charities can be a front for tax evasion"

 

[Allafterne]

Allright... I won't defend this game on not being a scam, since that would be absurd. If people want to claim that, they have to prove it, not the other way around... How is this game/dev a scam?
And I'm not really interested in researching scams in general. If you have some specific details, please share them here.
Donations in general are not tax exempt, so your example is not a thing. Donated money is taxed. Same as donated cars would be taxed.

If you like to "donate" to a project that:
1:Hasn't seen an update for 22 months
2:Has few reworks under its belt & developer either expands or outright changes scope whenever it looks close to a release from his dev reports
3: Said dev just pulled "Support me or I'll pull the plug" card to his ever patient patrons asking what the hell he did during those 22 months

Go right ahead. We'll laugh our asses about it, but its completely your own prerogative...

 

[Majus]

If you like to "donate" to a project that:
1:Hasn't seen an update for 22 months
2:Has few reworks under its belt & developer either expands or outright changes scope whenever it looks close to a release from his dev reports
3: Said dev just pulled "Support me or I'll pull the plug" card to his ever patient patrons asking what the hell he did during those 22 months

Go right ahead. We'll laugh our asses about it, but its completely your own prerogative...

Go ahead at what? Donating to this dev? Read my previous comments:

Now, I could do what most people arguing here do: resubscribe, then accuse the developer of scamming me. omegalul These are the vibes that I'm reffering to. But why would I ever do that? Surely, such behaviour is insane.

Donations are taxed, depending on the country, and depending on the relationship between the parties of the donation, but, universally, donations are always a different (and lower) tax than the one that would fit for sales/services. Which you know, is the definition of tax evasion/

Also if you want to try and be pedantic, at least be smarter about it; some donations (typically those that are for an NGO/charity) can result in a tax benefit...which is also another scam that lawyers look into!* Because, if "your friend" starts a "charity", you "donate" some money to said charity, and then he happens to paint your house, well, let's just say that lawyers have also looked into this kind of thing before.

*No, I'm not saying "all charities are scams", I am saying that "charities can be a front for tax evasion"

Huh: "... donations are always a different (and lower) tax than the one that would fit for sales/services."
There are registered charities and these have a different rate. But besides registered charities, in my country, there is no separate tax for sales or services or gifts or donations or income. It's just the same income tax applied (or not) to everything.
And I don't understand why are we talking about taxes or charities?

Options for game development. Professional and hobby:
1. Develop a game to completion, then sell it. Simple.
2. Develop a demo, while developing the rest, sell pre-orders. This ties you with a deadline and a commitment to deliver a finished product.
3. Develop a game with periodical updates tied to periodic charges. People can come and go mid-development, which could be paused.
4. Develop a game free of charge. No sales contract made, no commitment. Extremely casual. Set up an optional donation channel, essentially a tip jar, something a barista would use.

So, yeah. I sometimes think about making a garbage game and consider about the 4th option, since it would be a side/hobby thing for me. The idea of people being able to toss a few coins my way as a "thanks, man, love your FREE game" sounds cool. But somehow I sense that you're sceptical about this model for some reason. Also, what do you think of baristas collecting tips? Are they a problem to society too?

And this is where my problem lies. As soon as you open a ko-fi/patreon page - you're a scammer. Even if the game is free. Or some people will donate a bunch of money and will feel that they're entitled to your nudes, lol. People will use their "generosity" to justify weirdest crap and that's "eww".

 

[Senor Smut]

There's no way this constitutes the legal definition of fraud. Trying to get nail someone on Patreon for fraud is like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall, it just doesn't happen. It's the problem with Patreon: you pay to support a developer, not for whatever the developer may or may not produce. At least in instances like this -- if a dev offers, say, copies of products when they're produced, but then produces the products AND doesn't deliver the promised copies, that's fraud. All Crush has said is "Support me while I work on this game." He has sent actual code he's written to certain supporters as a form of beta test, so we know he's actually worked on the game.

I've had a couple of lengthy talks with Crush, and I've altered my stance on him. I don't think he's doing this as a deliberate scam. I think it really is working on the game as hard as he can, though not as much as he claims. I also think he's utterly inefficient, burned out beyond belief, and mentally incapable of ever finishing this game. He may not be mentally capable of ever producing another serious update, or even finished the whole of the lifepath system he set out to make almost two years ago. But he's a stubborn guy, and he doesn't believe he's mentally incapable of it. He truly believes he's going to get it done. He's passionate about it, but he can't finish it and so can't deliver what he's promised. Supporting Crush is less supporting a scammer than supporting a guy on the edge of a nervous breakdown who needs to step away from this for his own good -- but who's going to ride this particular airplane straight into the ground and burst into flames along with the project.

The reality is much sadder than I believed before, though for the end consumer the results will be the same: no completed Female Agent. And that is bad news for almost everyone here, because it's a worthy project that I think most of us would enjoy playing if it ever came into being.

 

[SuperMaxo]

^^This

Also; people on F95 are prompt to assume that devs fall into two categories: good and trustworthy, on the one hand, and scammers, on the other hand.

But as in real-life, there are more types of people than that. For example, dreamers, and then doers or task-masters.
Or, since we're dealing with game developers: talented and knowledgeable ones, and inefficient ones who get overwhelmed by their own project.

Crush may or may not be a dreamer, but I'm pretty sure he's not a talented and knowledgeable game developer (not talking about writing, just game-making)

 

[Senor Smut]

^^This

Also; people on F95 are prompt to assume that devs fall into two categories: good and trustworthy, on the one hand, and scammers, on the other hand.

But as in real-life, there are more types of people than that. For example, dreamers, and then doers or task-masters.
Or, since we're dealing with game developers: talented and knowledgeable ones, and inefficient ones who get overwhelmed by their own project.

Crush may or may not be a dreamer, but I'm pretty sure he's not a talented and knowledgeable game developer (not talking about writing, just game-making)

The weirdest thing about it is that in a past life he was a project manager. By all rights he should have been great at organization and self-management. As it turned out, though, he was incapable or unwilling (probably a bit of both) to apply those skills to his own project, which has led us to the fiasco we see before us. For years people have been telling him that he needs to allow others take over certain aspects of the game, but he's neurotic about having all the control. I am certain he got into all this because he was a fan of H-games and wanted to make something people could enjoy -- it all just got away from him.

And if you think about it, if he brought Female Agent into port successfully, he could immediately start another Patreon for a new project and people would trip all over themselves to sign up. Instead his subscriber base is slowly dwindling and he's stuck in a miserable rut. I really get the sense the man feels no joy in his life right now.

 

[orellion]

The weirdest thing about it is that in a past life he was a project manager. By all rights he should have been great at organization and self-management. As it turned out, though, he was incapable or unwilling (probably a bit of both) to apply those skills to his own project, which has led us to the fiasco we see before us. For years people have been telling him that he needs to allow others take over certain aspects of the game, but he's neurotic about having all the control. I am certain he got into all this because he was a fan of H-games and wanted to make something people could enjoy -- it all just got away from him.

And if you think about it, if he brought Female Agent into port successfully, he could immediately start another Patreon for a new project and people would trip all over themselves to sign up. Instead his subscriber base is slowly dwindling and he's stuck in a miserable rut. I really get the sense the man feels no joy in his life right now.

I agree with some of that. His past work as a "project manager" is probably embellished. Kind of like calling a subway worker a "sandwich artist". I have pointed out in the past he is at least very transparent about his earnings instead of hiding them, and could choose to hide them as an excuse for not feeling motivated enough.

 

[Spawk]

What a great person this developer is, and if you think you need to unsubscribe because of the speed of development, then he will not work better, he will simply abandon the project, it is not he who depends on you, you depend on him.

 

[asdfasdf12341234ACSACA]

The weirdest thing about it is that in a past life he was a project manager. By all rights he should have been great at organization and self-management. As it turned out, though, he was incapable or unwilling (probably a bit of both) to apply those skills to his own project, which has led us to the fiasco we see before us. For years people have been telling him that he needs to allow others take over certain aspects of the game, but he's neurotic about having all the control. I am certain he got into all this because he was a fan of H-games and wanted to make something people could enjoy -- it all just got away from him.

And if you think about it, if he brought Female Agent into port successfully, he could immediately start another Patreon for a new project and people would trip all over themselves to sign up. Instead his subscriber base is slowly dwindling and he's stuck in a miserable rut. I really get the sense the man feels no joy in his life right now.

Don't take this as a personal offense, but I'm surprised by people who think that "Project manager" as a job title automatically means that you're good. I think it may just be that you (not you personally) haven't met enough "project managers".

In my soulless corporate jobs, the vast majority of project managers were simply people who stuck around for long enough that either other people left, or the company grew and they required a new project manager so they simply promoted "the guy that's been here the longest".

Really, failing upwards onto a project manager position is much more common than people would believe.

 

[Senor Smut]

Don't take this as a personal offense, but I'm surprised by people who think that "Project manager" as a job title automatically means that you're good. I think it may just be that you (not you personally) haven't met enough "project managers".

In my soulless corporate jobs, the vast majority of project managers were simply people who stuck around for long enough that either other people left, or the company grew and they required a new project manager so they simply promoted "the guy that's been here the longest".

Really, failing upwards onto a project manager position is much more common than people would believe.

Heh, fair enough. I spent much of my life working in medical offices, and I learned some appalling things about the medical education system and the level of competency required to become an MD as well, so I understand the concept of people not being as skilled as their title would lead one to assume.

 

[Senor Smut]

What a great person this developer is, and if you think you need to unsubscribe because of the speed of development, then he will not work better, he will simply abandon the project, it is not he who depends on you, you depend on him. View attachment 5285495

To be honest, at this point I think that supporting this project is doing Crush more harm than good. He needs to step away from it, but he won't until A) his subscriber base falls below what he needs to support him, or B) he has a nervous breakdown. (A) ain't gonna happen before (B), unfortunately for him.

 

[Prawnstar69]

How to Crush logic - if i release without editing, people won't like it. So I just won't release anything, then everyone will love it.

How to crush Crush's logic - you can patch or rewrite a bad release, but only AFTER people are able to playtest it. "but I don't like it" *whines in baby crab*

Circular argument, will only end when Patreons cut supply to the money he seems happy to take.

 

[Majus]

He clearly knows that people are not happy about the lack of updates.

In his mind, he can only release a masterpiece. Sadly, he can't live up to Michelangelo. And Michelangelo did not beta test his paintings, so he won't beta test his updates publicly either.

Many of his Patrons are basically gambling addicts, hoping that the update will drop. They are willing to continue their support, even if odds of that happening are horrible.