Game with an Ending or Infinite Gameplay?

[heshaxt]

Hey, F95!

I'm torn between designing a game with a definitive ending or going for a more infinite/procedural approach. On one hand, a game with a clear ending can provide a sense of closure and satisfaction for players, and can allow for a more focused narrative and gameplay experience. On the other hand, an infinite or procedural game can offer endless replayability and a unique experience for each player.

What are the pros and cons of each approach? and How do you ensure that an infinite/procedural game doesn't become repetitive or stale?

 

[iron4doves]

Guess it depends on what your objectives are. From a player perspective, most of the best, memorable games I know of (H or not) have a bit of both (ex: skyrim / summer memories). But, there are good games that don't have both, and there are bad games that do.

Ultimately I think you're more likely to want to finish something that connects with you, something you would like to play right now if it existed. Starting with a game of smaller scope could help you figure out what your tastes really are while still giving you a good chance of completing it.

 

[heshaxt]

Guess it depends on what your objectives are. From a player perspective, most of the best, memorable games I know of (H or not) have a bit of both (ex: skyrim / summer memories). But, there are good games that don't have both, and there are bad games that do.

Ultimately I think you're more likely to want to finish something that connects with you, something you would like to play right now if it existed. Starting with a game of smaller scope could help you figure out what your tastes really are while still giving you a good chance of completing it.

Yeah! I really want and working on a game concept that combines the strategic depth of Crusader Kings with the heavy theme of a H-Game and explicit topic like realistic scenario violence and stuff. I will probably start with text-based as it's much simpler to develop.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[anne O'nymous]

What are the pros and cons of each approach?

Well, I'm tempted to say that, player side, there's none for both, especially if, like for Elder scrolls or fallout games, the sandbox continue after an actual ending.
As for dev side, having a pure real sandbox part that can be played infinitely is something really hard to do, even with real time 3D or puppeted 2D. Plus, if you release your game by updates, like it happen often on the adult gaming scene, it will had no value to the game during its development time.

and How do you ensure that an infinite/procedural game doesn't become repetitive or stale?

You can't, because it's just not possible. There will always be a moment when you've seen everything so often that it become old. What make games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 to still be played a decade later isn't their sandbox approach, but their mods, that permit to put new variety into the game and then feel like you're playing something new, even if it's the same base game than ten years ago.

The only thing you can do is to enforce the variety, by relying massively on randomization. But of course, this need high coding knowledge and a really strong testing policy, because it's something really easy to break.

 

[StGiggles]

Yeah! I really want and working on a game concept that combines the strategic depth of Crusader Kings with the heavy theme of a H-Game and explicit topic like realistic scenario violence and stuff. I will probably start with text-based as it's much simpler to develop.

Thanks for the advice!

I think the biggest hurdle is to figure out how the choices the player makes in the sandbox affects the narative. In a sim game like CK you get traits, new events open up etc., and you create your own narrative as you play. Now if the dev also added a pre-destined narative that doesn't respect the player's choices it would break the immersion. So you either end up giving too few choices in the sandbox (limited by the number of narratives you can possibly create beforehand) or a very small amount of content for each choice (limited by the resources you have to create those narratives).

 

[heshaxt]

I think the biggest hurdle is to figure out how the choices the player makes in the sandbox affects the narative. In a sim game like CK you get traits, new events open up etc., and you create your own narrative as you play. Now if the dev also added a pre-destined narative that doesn't respect the player's choices it would break the immersion. So you either end up giving too few choices in the sandbox (limited by the number of narratives you can possibly create beforehand) or a very small amount of content for each choice (limited by the resources you have to create those narratives).

Yeah, I've been brainstorming ways to create scripted events that are flexible enough to adapt to the player's decisions, using conditional triggers based on global variables, player variables, and even NPC attributes like traits, conditions, and physical statuses.

As for pre-defined scripted events, I'm thinking of taking a cue from games like CK, where events like the Black Death are unavoidable, but still influenced by the player's choices.

Thanks for the reply!

You can't, because it's just not possible. There will always be a moment when you've seen everything so often that it become old. What make games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 to still be played a decade later isn't their sandbox approach, but their mods, that permit to put new variety into the game and then feel like you're playing something new, even if it's the same base game than ten years ago.

The only thing you can do is to enforce the variety, by relying massively on randomization. But of course, this need high coding knowledge and a really strong testing policy, because it's something really easy to break.

Yes, that is my main worries about 'Infinite sandbox' games, on the other hand, I really want to implement features that allow players to pass down their characters' legacies to future generations by either having randomized, procedural-gen children or other family member, with the game world adapting to their actions.

I don't know if this going to be boring or not, but at least I really want to make one for myself.

I don't know if it's going to be counted as mod-able game, but, the engine is designed to be flexible. I designed it so that I can add new scripting files and localization content with relative ease without needing to hard compile the game project, as it's based on C#.

Thanks for the in-depth advice!

 

[osanaiko]

It's great that you are considering these questions.

One word of caution: " game concept that combines the strategic depth of Crusader Kings with the heavy theme of a H-Game and explicit topic like realistic scenario violence "

That sounds like an awfully big project for a first-time solo dev.

The KISS principle very very much applies to H-game development, especially for your first game.

 

[heshaxt]

It's great that you are considering these questions.

One word of caution: " game concept that combines the strategic depth of Crusader Kings with the heavy theme of a H-Game and explicit topic like realistic scenario violence "

That sounds like an awfully big project for a first-time solo dev.

The KISS principle very very much applies to H-game development, especially for your first game.

This is my first time knowing about KISS principle. Yes, guess I was way too ambitious. It was my dream game after all. I'll keep it simple first. Thank you for the advice!

 

[DuniX]

I'm torn between designing a game with a definitive ending or going for a more infinite/procedural approach.

Both?
Given that you would want something like Infinite Gameplay then the key to that would be in the Replayability and one way to achive that is to have diffrent Endings that act as Goals and Victory Conditions, something like Achievements with diffrent Requirements to complete so that you have more variety in your playstyle, as well as things to Unlock and increasing Challenge Modes/Difficulty Modes.

It's pretty hard to stretch the game so that you have "Endless" Gameplay, once the Progression, Challenges and Opposition runs out the game might as well be over, you would just get bored once you reach the peak.
So it's better to think of the gameplay in terms of multiple playthroughs.
PoP is a game like this:
https://f95zone.to/threads/portals-of-phereon-v0-26-1-0-syvaron.7803/

 

[DuniX]

on the other hand, I really want to implement features that allow players to pass down their characters' legacies to future generations by either having randomized, procedural-gen children or other family member, with the game world adapting to their actions.

The problem with that is just continuing with a legacy does not serve as a "Game Start" as it does not Resets things like your Progression and accumulated Resources, usually when you "Win the Game" you are already on top of the world having defeated everyone who opposes and impedes you.

One intresting thing to do is Simulate your winning "Empire" like 100 years into the future where your Empire has already Fallen into Decline based on the type of Ending you achieved, so a Diplomacy/Alliance style ending leads to Decadence while a Conquest Ending will have Rebellions rise up all over.
That's enough time for things to change and new mysteries to crop up to make for a new Game Start, it would also have the Charm of seeing the consequence and legacy of your actions and as well as retracing the steps to find out the mystery on what has gone wrong.
Of course you would need a pretty robust Simulation System and AI Director kind of thing to make that work properly, and it does not work that well if you want historical accuracy as this is more useful in a Medieval Stasis style fantasy world where Progress can be reset to some extent.

Alternatively what you can do as a New Game Start is to play against your Winning Empire as a new generation of Rebels. Like in Star Wars the "Empire" has "Won" so become the next generation of spunky "Rebels" that fight that.
Since you would know the Empire inside and out that means you would know what flaws and weaknesses it has that you can exploit.

You can't, because it's just not possible. There will always be a moment when you've seen everything so often that it become old. What make games like Skyrim or Fallout 4 to still be played a decade later isn't their sandbox approach, but their mods, that permit to put new variety into the game and then feel like you're playing something new, even if it's the same base game than ten years ago.

Depends. Gameplay can be it's own source of replayability as long as you can maintain the Challenge, there are 4X Games that are naturally procedural and randomized.
Even if you do the same Actions, and have the same Units,Resources and Progression how the game plays out can be diffrent and you might not necessarily win.
Especially nowadays with Challenge Ratings and Ascension Modes and other New Game+ Modifiers and whatnot.

 

[heshaxt]

Both?
Given that you would want something like Infinite Gameplay then the key to that would be in the Replayability and one way to achive that is to have diffrent Endings that act as Goals and Victory Conditions, something like Achievements with diffrent Requirements to complete so that you have more variety in your playstyle, as well as things to Unlock and increasing Challenge Modes/Difficulty Modes.

It's pretty hard to stretch the game so that you have "Endless" Gameplay, once the Progression, Challenges and Opposition runs out the game might as well be over, you would just get bored once you reach the peak.
So it's better to think of the gameplay in terms of multiple playthroughs.
PoP is a game like this:
https://f95zone.to/threads/portals-of-phereon-v0-26-1-0-syvaron.7803/

I totally agree for it to be challenging to create a game that's truly "endless" and doesn't get repetitive. If I wanted "endless" content, I would probably just chat and role-play with an AI chatbot.

And I love the idea of having unlockables and increasing challenge modes to keep the game fresh. Maybe I'll make it a "Starter Scenario" because it will have a story. I don't really want to just make lifeless clicks and conceive.

Again, too much ambition and ideas can be bad, trying to keep it simple as I try to follow the KISS principle.

Thanks for the example of Portals of Phereon, I'll definitely check it out!

One intresting thing to do is Simulate your winning "Empire" like 100 years into the future where your Empire has already Fallen into Decline based on the type of Ending you achieved, so a Diplomacy/Alliance style ending leads to Decadence while a Conquest Ending will have Rebellions rise up all over.

Alternatively what you can do as a New Game Start is to play against your Winning Empire as a new generation of Rebels. Like in Star Wars the "Empire" has "Won" so become the next generation of spunky "Rebels" that fight that.
Since you would know the Empire inside and out that means you would know what flaws and weaknesses it has that you can exploit.

Whoah, I love your idea of simulating the decline of the empire and playing as a new generation of rebels. Either give player the option to be 'born' into a random family or have the game end and let the world 'simulate' itself.

Of course you would need a pretty robust Simulation System and AI Director kind of thing to make that work properly, and it does not work that well if you want historical accuracy as this is more useful in a Medieval Stasis style fantasy world where Progress can be reset to some extent.

Yep, for the past two days, I've been working on designing blueprints and simple algorithms for the NPC system. I'm not aiming for the complexity of Paradox Games, but rather something more straightforward. I know it might be premature optimization, but I think the key to simulating hundreds of NPCs would be to use a similar principle to occlusion culling, or even simpler, just simulate a set number of NPCs per time scale (e.g., one game week at a time), or even both.

Thanks for very detailed info, ideas, and advices!

 

[DuniX]

Yep, for the past two days, I've been working on designing blueprints and simple algorithms for the NPC system. I'm not aiming for the complexity of Paradox Games, but rather something more straightforward. I know it might be premature optimization, but I think the key to simulating hundreds of NPCs would be to use a similar principle to occlusion culling, or even simpler, just simulate a set number of NPCs per time scale (e.g., one game week at a time), or even both.

There is one trick you can do is if you played a Raising Sim like Princess Maker where you grow that character to achive diffrent Classes and Endings. Slave Training games are also basically that.
The question is what if you had that kind of Growth System for ALL Characters in the World?
NPCs would have a basic Desire for Growth and Advancement that translates to increasing their Social Status in the World and achieving diffrent Classes and Roles, like Knights or Prime Minister.
In terms of Simulation as long as you can make it Deterministic you predict the results into the future and trigger things when specific outcomes are reached. That means you can get the results you want and plan ahead whenever you want.

Some intresting games you might look at like this check these:
Shadows of the Forbidden Gods. It's a God Sim/4X game that has "Heroes" that do stuff under their own agency based on their own motivation. It's a pretty simple system you could use.
Koei's Romance of the Three Kingdom's series has an intresting Officer System and is pretty similar to Crusader Kings and arguably better. Not many are on PC or translated so check a Let's Play to get an idea.
Kenshi is a sandbox RPG where the whole appeal is you can do everything. The NPCs and Factions are kind of basic in their simulation.

Another trick you can pull is what if your interface and abilities that you normally have in a strategy game, what if you made that into NPCs and your relationship with them?
Like the Crusader King's assassination button what if you had an actual assassin/ninja you need to raise, build a relationship with and trade favors in order to get the job done? The better their abilities and the likelier the success.