VN Help me choose the way to make VN

[Trash_Panda]

Okay so, i have two alternatives, by the way it will be my first time to make a VN.

First: DAZ (duh)
I do half-assed 3D modelling in my daily work life using AutoCad Fusion 360 despite being an electronics engineer. I went through DAZ tutorial, created some scenes and... thats pretty much it. The main thing was how similar it is to modding games. You either purchase or accidentally download the pirate copy or you can model them yourself which is a very long process, theres also option to get free shitty models as well. I still dont know how much time it takes to render a full scene with everything in it, this might be time consuming. There's also the fact that i will be starting from the very bottom unlike my second option below.

Second: Skyrim
Been playing the game since 1 year after it came out and started modding it not longer after started playing, up to this day im still modding it, know ins and outs, know how to pose characters, give them emotions etc. Animating is one of the easiest things as well. With my setup with already 250+ mods in it, i first considered using it, but i see overall bias on using games as render engine on the forum since its basically taking a SS like people says. I dont know if my DAZ library will ever surpass skyrim if i choose to go down that path.

With that im open to any suggestions you will provide, lets discuss about this.

 

[Saki_Sliz]

Lots of people use Daz. If you are starting out and don't know what you are doing, everyone would suggest daz. It's hard to argue against daz because of how powerful of a tool it is.

However-

Everyone uses daz. As a result, while you do manage to make good looking art, the issue nowadays isn't good looking art, its either being really good or really unique so that your project stands out. So when you mentioned skyrim, I got excited.

first of all, I would say, prioritize speed and 'good enough.' I say this mainly because, 1 you do have an option that you can start with right away, and 2 I've been struggling to do projects for over a decade because I was trying to do everything 'right' but it would be slow, and either loose motivation or get distracted by the next cool shiny idea. Recently started a new big project that combined a lot of my ideas, and the project is so important to me that I don't have time to waist trying to make custom tools or make proper graphics. I've just been abusing what I have and what I know to try to bash out a lot of these complex ideas (from miss using spreadsheets to draw quick block outs and notes, to just yesterday I tried using the Unity game engine as image annotation tool, while not bothering to make a proper 'program'). Finally giving up trying to do things properly, and focus on the fun of directly working on the project I want has been very rewarding. I don't care if it takes me longer to draw all the graphics and art as I need them, copying pasting parts, instead of making a dedicated collection of assets, as long as it feels like progress it seems good enough to keep me happy and interested.

I know being quick and dirty isn't a new suggestion or thought, because a lot of the time people care more about getting something done, than getting it done right. Example, yandere simulator, the coding is garbage and hard for the dev to update, but end users don't care, they only see the delivered product. Sure, the dev may have a better time and may be able to make a more advance project if they went back and tried to do things properly. For the longest time I prioritize doing things right because I was worried about doing things wrong, as a result I have learned a great deal, but never published a project yet, but I'm at the point now that my skill level allows me to make great things, so now I just need to focus on using those skills. It sounds like you have your own skill, and I would suggest focusing on using it rather than going through the hastle of daz. I've used daz for 3 years now or so for character modeling, I've made a collection but it took me a long time of studying art and self reflection to finally create a suite of standardize character models that I like and hope to use. I think you'll have more fun working 'in skyrim' than working in daz to make your project because you'd just be comfortable with the workflow. you would be comfortable because you never need to slow down and ask, how do i do this? it doesn't matter if it would have taking a few clicks and some money with daz, if you at least know you can do it on your own with a bit of effort.

second of all, I have seen lots of the nsfw videos made using modded skyrim, I don't really play skyrim, but I have hundreds of hours logged on steam just because I had lots of fun modding it (and the time is just me booting up skyrim to see if it stable, not actually playing), so I know it can look pretty good and pretty unique depending on what mod loadout you use. So I'd recommend skyrim because I do think that it can look good, and that using skyrim is not something I see a lot of with adult games, so I think it could help your project stand out.

side note, I'm jealous of you. by the time I had a computer that could not only play skyrim, but also handle graphic mods, intel had already bought havok and ended all support for moding tools, so I couldn't get into making custom mods with skyrim simply because a lot of the things like blender to creation engine export I simply couldn't do as the plugins and required dependencies were no longer available online, and the few I could get from other modders I couldn't get working for the same reason. I always wanted to make and program custom characters, but I never could.

 

[Trash_Panda]

Thank you for your input sir, you wasnt only helpful but also inspirational. I see you also struggled a lot to bring out a finished project. At least i've never seen a project by your name but from what you said i became really curious about your expertise in daz and would like to check it out if it sees sunlight one day you could always bring out small works and test the waters tho, i think a lot of your time went into thinking process which isnt always a good thing.

As for me...


I started recording my own skyrim playthrough videos since at least 4 years, it became a habit of mine, then i really started roleplaying it myself but sharing the stuff only recently occured to me. Currently im still using the Legendary version of the game but you dont need high framerates in a VN, therefore im planning to switch to anniversary edition and very high quality graphics mods as VNs dont care about fps

 

[Incombat]

I also see nothing wrong with going Skyrim, unless you really want to bank on DAZ in the future, and acquire whole new skillset for it.
As far as I've seen, modded Skyrim, especially Legendary version before the whole Bethesda crackdown and Special Edition engine fade-in, could top most of the DAZ store rendered models due to lots of great mods. You can also always play with Skyrim's BodyMorph to create more unique models. And it would certainly make your project stand out among others, as Skyrim-based games are very rare nowadays.

The only problem I see would be trouble with adjusting model collision to look right (as in genitals during intercourse) and easily recognizable stock animations(like the ones we see in Illusion games), so you will probably need to limit your scenes to creative camera angles and short animation loops. Or learn rigging, and make your own custom animations, which might be more work than DAZ, unless you already dabbled.

So my vote if for using your existing experience to bring in your own unique style to the scene. Good luck!

 

[DiviDreamer]

Can i suggest you ugly but good method to choose between Daz, Skyrim and Illusion (and what else used to make VN now)?
Make scene in one of each, and make you own choice depending on time spent, money, and how easy/comfy it was.

 

[MissFortune]

And it would certainly make your project stand out among others, as Skyrim-based games are very rare nowadays.

They're rare because copyright. Bethesda/MS will wreck anyone making a decent amount of money off their work - or a quick C&D.

Which is why Daz is so much more popular (in this space, at least). You buy the products (well, most do, at least. Some are happy to brag about how their entire library is pirated.) and are free to use them in a non-3D world (Unreal/Interactive, as in moving a Daz model with a controller) commercially.

 

[Incombat]

They're rare because copyright. Bethesda/MS will wreck anyone making a decent amount of money off their work - or a quick C&D.

Which is why Daz is so much more popular (in this space, at least). You buy the products (well, most do, at least. Some are happy to brag about how their entire library is pirated.) and are free to use them in a non-3D world (Unreal/Interactive, as in moving a Daz model with a controller) commercially.

well, yes, if you want to sell the game on Steam or something, DAZ or doing original art is your safest bet for sure. But there are plenty of copyrighted stuff that flies under the radar(especially 3d model vids and sims mods. I guess you can argue that it sells base game copies), the money bar is not that low. Just don't touch Nintendo stuff with a 10ft pole.

Skyrim stuff is also rare because it's actually harder to do than your typical DAZ project. Getting Skyrim mod build to look good and unique without breaking anything can be quite a balancing act.

So Skyrim is still viable for first or hobby project, imho, just depends on your long-term plans, I guess.

 

[Trash_Panda]

They're rare because copyright. Bethesda/MS will wreck anyone making a decent amount of money off their work - or a quick C&D.

Which is why Daz is so much more popular (in this space, at least). You buy the products (well, most do, at least. Some are happy to brag about how their entire library is pirated.) and are free to use them in a non-3D world (Unreal/Interactive, as in moving a Daz model with a controller) commercially.

Could you elaborate that copyright problem a bit? I read about it in one of the older threads and it doesnt seem to be a problem. Let me share its link here:
https://f95zone.to/threads/using-moded-skyrim-for-vn-visuals.37038/

 

[Saki_Sliz]

it's been a while since I've talked about anything copyright. But I think the summary is this: technically, legal, I think the understanding of the law is that by taking the image of a video game and using it for your own video game as only image and videos, this is considered 'transformation' and is legally considered a separate piece of art (not owned by Bethesda). So legally, you could make the game. However, that's not the issue. Say you did make the game, and say Bethesda did want to sue you. They would loose the case, but the cost of doing so would be nothing to them. However, the cost to you to defend yourself, while you would make the money back after winning, before you win you would still have to pay tens of thousands of dollars just to hirer a lawyer and managing legal fees. Most people can't financially handle being sued. Of course the court system knows this, but its not an issue. That because companies would rather sue youtube or steam because they have lots of money, and they are making money (either through sales, or through ad revenue) so they will actualy make a case against who ever is hosting your content. In order to legally be protected, companies follow 'safe harbor' laws that lets them be able to remove the content, or push the blame to the user (who can't afford a legal case so they just settle for suspending the account to comply with safe harbor laws). So while legally you could make a game, with the current state of the world, big companies can abuse the copyright system to scare anyone or silence anyone they want by virtually disabling and assassinating them. Nintendo is a major example, having a bunch of old guys in charge they follow old practices, and will shut down any form of fan content because they fear people stealing money from them. Even though theres lots of ways to show fan content as good for their business, they won't hear it and can't understand the logic of the modern social era. So you could make a game, and if for what ever reason it catches their eyes and they don't like how it makes their product looks, they send a C&D letter to the website. But I hadn't heard that this was an issue with bethesday, considering just how much nsfw art is made with it.

 

[Incombat]

the only thing Bethesda actually would sue you over is if you would've stolen programming code and used it in your own commercial product(sold clone of their game). Other than that, the grounds for lawsuit to even be accepted in court is finicky as such cases are easily argued to be protected by the Fair Use law(

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). Especially if you don't use any original characters from the game(as in same name, textures and character model. Even still, small percentage of couple characters to the content of whole game works in the favor of defendant ). Bethesda doesn't own any adult mods for their game, so they can't sue you over it. Modders that maybe took down their mods and forbid to use them for general public do have the rights to their work, but again, they are in the same boat as you concerning legal costs. Let's be real, no one actually sued people over mods. They just ask admins of the hosting platform to take it down.

Which is the same thing big companies do with content creators - they know they can't win it in the court, but it's enough to just issue a copyright strike to get the content taken down from platform, as Youtube and such don't want to bother with legal troubles. The heavy work of arguing the case and getting their content restored lays on the creator.

So usual scenario is administration of your hosting site(Patreon or SubscribeStar or whatever) would receive C&D letter with takedown request. After that, they either work with you to let your remove/adjust your content, or do it themselves. Worst case, they ban the account(usually happens if issue is not resolved over longer period of time, or you are multiple times offender).
As long as you don't straight up sell the game in stores, you are not in legal hot waters, and worst case that can be you might lose a month of subs money and will have to switch platforms.

Also, the whole category of "parody" exists. I wonder if South Park ever got any lawsuits?

 

[DiviDreamer]

So if your game is free, you not going to sell it, you still have troubles with Bethesda?