How can I fully understand the laws before I make a game?

[ChocolateOctopus]

Hi all

I am considering the idea of making a VN. I have a cool story in mind, but I want to make sure I iron out all of the rules and laws that might of relevance to my game and monetisation of said game. For reference, I am from the UK.

Okay, here are my questions;

1. How do game developers actually make money from their game?
2. Am I allowed to even make money from a VN? Is it purely a case of "self-employment" and therefore being responsible for declaring taxes? (I have no problem with taxes btw, I just want to get it right)
3. What content can I actually make? Is Incest allowed? Sleep sex? I want to add that these are not a dealbreaker, I am simply trying to define what is okay and what is not okay (It goes without saying that rule no. 7 obviously falls into the not okay category).
4. What rules apply to steam? I ask because I have seen games on steam that involve incest and rape. ( For example, I know Germany has strict laws against this, but seeing as I can view these games on steam in the UK, I am guessing they are all above board?).


That's it! Thanks all o/

 

[c3p0]

How can I fully understand the laws before I make a game?

Become a lawyer and increase the chance for that. Yet, I assume even lawers do not fully understand all laws that are out there.

For reference, I am from the UK.

Great, so only about 0.8% of the world population can give you accurate advise. Might be more here, as the world population it is not evenly distributed.

1. How do game developers actually make money from their game?

• Selling
• Renting
• Subscription
• Donation

2. Am I allowed to even make money from a VN? Is it purely a case of "self-employment" and therefore being responsible for declaring taxes? (I have no problem with taxes btw, I just want to get it right)

Subquestion 2A) although I'm not UK, Yes, 2B) Yes, again

3. What content can I actually make? Is Incest allowed? Sleep sex? I want to add that these are not a dealbreaker, I am simply trying to define what is okay and what is not okay (It goes without saying that rule no. 7 obviously falls into the not okay category).

Don't know, read the law, where it mostly not is written, so read court rulings. Also what is allowed or not allowed with the laws of the country you life in, the laws of the countries you sell the game (assumption you are selling it) and what is allowed/not allowed per general terms and regulations from intermediater service provide you use (Patreon, Steam, ...) may be (very) different.

4. What rules apply to steam? I ask because I have seen games on steam that involve incest and rape. ( For example, I know Germany has strict laws against this, but seeing as I can view these games on steam in the UK, I am guessing they are all above board?).

You can see here games that sometimes are against rule 7 (or to be precise rule 1.7) simple because they haven't been reported yet. What is allowed per law and what you can see on Steam are two different pair of shoes.
Germany has strict rules on pornography and demand a clear procedure so that minors can't see it and Steam decided instead of implementing those procedure to restrict access of all Germans to pornograpic games in their store.

Also, for all legal aspect, ask (and most likely pay) a lawer or similar person for counselling and don't think a bunch of different people over the world can give you good legal counselling.

 

[Count Morado]

Hi all

I am considering the idea of making a VN. I have a cool story in mind, but I want to make sure I iron out all of the rules and laws that might of relevance to my game and monetisation of said game. For reference, I am from the UK.

Okay, here are my questions;

1. How do game developers actually make money from their game?
2. Am I allowed to even make money from a VN? Is it purely a case of "self-employment" and therefore being responsible for declaring taxes? (I have no problem with taxes btw, I just want to get it right)
3. What content can I actually make? Is Incest allowed? Sleep sex? I want to add that these are not a dealbreaker, I am simply trying to define what is okay and what is not okay (It goes without saying that rule no. 7 obviously falls into the not okay category).
4. What rules apply to steam? I ask because I have seen games on steam that involve incest and rape. ( For example, I know Germany has strict laws against this, but seeing as I can view these games on steam in the UK, I am guessing they are all above board?).


That's it! Thanks all o/

As c3p0 says, become a lawyer that specializes in game development or find one and get a consultation. Like Adam Savage says, the cost of a lawyer will save you so much money down the line. Even when you can't afford one, you can't afford not to have one if you are going to go into business for yourself.

1. They can earn money through subscriptions on a platform, single tips/contributions through those types of platforms, and retail sale on sites like itch, steam, and others.
2. Are you allowed? Most likely. It would be self-employment unless you set up a corporation in which you are an officer and then there would be business taxes and possible deductions which you couldn't get through self-employment (and vice versa) depending upon where you live. You say you live in the UK, so you would want to investigate there.
   Note, the average adult game developer on Patreon makes about $100 Euros per month in subscriptions, even after 3 years of having a Patreon page. So while you may most likely be allowed, you most likely will not make a living let alone break even.
3. Different platforms where you would attempt to monetize have different rules. Any site that uses Paypal/Stripe - just about everything you mention you would want to put in would not be allowed. And, yes, make sure you know what is legal to put in your creation within the jurisdiction in which you live.
4. You should begin here:
   You must be registered to see the links
   And then ask them DIRECTLY if you have any questions and save all communications.

Also, see these:

• https://f95zone.to/threads/creating-and-selling-3d-vn-porn-game-in-indonesia.208348/post-13748661
• https://f95zone.to/threads/govt-laws-in-india-for-adult-visual-novel.203019/post-13409609
• https://f95zone.to/threads/doubts-before-publishing-a-game.182705/post-12270055
• https://f95zone.to/threads/is-it-le...vns-on-patreon-from-india.96174/post-11876404
• https://f95zone.to/threads/legal-stuff-7-what-can-i-do-and-what-i-must-avoid.151213/#post-11263822
• https://f95zone.to/threads/question-of-legality-in-development.139637/#post-9537952
• https://f95zone.to/threads/is-it-ri...eir-name-in-parody-games.137178/#post-9405027

Even though those questions come from people in other countries, many of them have the same concerns as you (and some different ones). Bottom line is if you have actual legal concerns don't ask people on this site - seek professional counsel.

 

[GNVE]

probably being a lawyer wouldn't be enough. I think it is quite probably you'd also need to become an accountant as that niche might be better known by that community. Cannot evade what you don't know and all

 

[ChocolateOctopus]

As c3p0 says, become a lawyer that specializes in game development or find one and get a consultation. Like Adam Savage says, the cost of a lawyer will save you so much money down the line. Even when you can't afford one, you can't afford not to have one if you are going to go into business for yourself.

1. They can earn money through subscriptions on a platform, single tips/contributions through those types of platforms, and retail sale on sites like itch, steam, and others.
2. Are you allowed? Most likely. It would be self-employment unless you set up a corporation in which you are an officer and then there would be business taxes and possible deductions which you couldn't get through self-employment (and vice versa) depending upon where you live. You say you live in the UK, so you would want to investigate there.
   Note, the average adult game developer on Patreon makes about $100 Euros per month in subscriptions, even after 3 years of having a Patreon page. So while you may most likely be allowed, you most likely will not make a living let alone break even.
3. Different platforms where you would attempt to monetize have different rules. Any site that uses Paypal/Stripe - just about everything you mention you would want to put in would not be allowed. And, yes, make sure you know what is legal to put in your creation within the jurisdiction in which you live.
4. You should begin here:
   You must be registered to see the links
   And then ask them DIRECTLY if you have any questions and save all communications.

Also, see these:

• https://f95zone.to/threads/creating-and-selling-3d-vn-porn-game-in-indonesia.208348/post-13748661
• https://f95zone.to/threads/govt-laws-in-india-for-adult-visual-novel.203019/post-13409609
• https://f95zone.to/threads/doubts-before-publishing-a-game.182705/post-12270055
• https://f95zone.to/threads/is-it-le...vns-on-patreon-from-india.96174/post-11876404
• https://f95zone.to/threads/legal-stuff-7-what-can-i-do-and-what-i-must-avoid.151213/#post-11263822
• https://f95zone.to/threads/question-of-legality-in-development.139637/#post-9537952
• https://f95zone.to/threads/is-it-ri...eir-name-in-parody-games.137178/#post-9405027

Even though those questions come from people in other countries, many of them have the same concerns as you (and some different ones). Bottom line is if you have actual legal concerns don't ask people on this site - seek professional counsel.

Thanks very much for your reply. You've been very helpful. I suppose there really isn't any other way other than hiring a lawyer...

 

[ChocolateOctopus]

probably being a lawyer wouldn't be enough. I think it is quite probably you'd also need to become an accountant as that niche might be better known by that community. Cannot evade what you don't know and all

Haha true, but that is not my intention. My VN seeks to be completely above board. I have no interest in actually adding such explicit scenes. I am currently brainstorming a scene and I am looking for general guidance on these matters to gauge what exactly I am dealing with. More specifically, I had wondered about a scene between the MC and the main "baddie" LI. The MC might seduce her despite the LI claiming she isn't interested. The MC knows she is lying, proceeds and she subsequently goes along with it (because she ultimately wants to). I hope that makes sense. Would this be considered coercion and therefore illegal?

 

[tanstaafl]

so, AI is unpopular here from the art perspective, but you know what AI is actually god for? Copy and paste your entire post into GPT and find out.

Edit: NM, I copied the OP here to GPT and here's what it said:


1. How do game developers actually make money from their game?
Game developers typically make money through various channels, including:

• Sales: Direct sales of the game through platforms like Steam, itch.io, or the developer's website.
• In-App Purchases: Selling additional content or features within the game.
• Advertising: Incorporating ads into free-to-play games.
• Crowdfunding: Using platforms like Kickstarter or Patreon to get funding from fans.
• Merchandising: Selling related merchandise such as posters, clothing, or other branded items.
• Sponsorships and Partnerships: Collaborating with brands or other companies for mutual benefit.

2. Am I allowed to even make money from a VN?
Yes, you are allowed to make money from a visual novel. If you plan to monetize your game, it will generally be considered self-employment. This means you will be responsible for:

• Registering as Self-Employed: You must register with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) as self-employed.
• Declaring Taxes: You must declare your earnings and pay any relevant taxes. This includes income tax and National Insurance contributions.
• VAT: If your earnings exceed the VAT threshold, you may need to register for and charge VAT.

3. What content can I actually make?
Content laws can be quite complex, especially when dealing with sensitive topics. In the UK:

• Incest: Depictions of incest can fall foul of UK obscenity laws. The Obscene Publications Act 1959 makes it illegal to publish any material that tends to "deprave and corrupt" persons who are likely to see it.
• Sleep Sex: Similar to the above, any non-consensual sexual activity is likely to be deemed obscene and could lead to legal issues.
• General Guidelines: Always consider the potential for your content to be considered obscene or harmful. Avoid content that includes non-consensual acts, extreme violence, or anything that could be seen as promoting illegal activities.

4. What rules apply to Steam?
Steam has its own set of rules and guidelines for what can be published on their platform. These include:

• Adult Content: Steam allows adult content but requires it to be properly flagged and age-gated.
• Prohibited Content: Steam does not allow content that exploits children, is unlawful, or promotes hate speech. This includes depictions of non-consensual sex, extreme violence, or illegal acts.
• Regional Restrictions: While some content may be accessible in the UK, it might not be available in other regions due to local laws. This can include restrictions on depictions of incest or non-consensual sex.

Given your concerns about specific content types, it's crucial to review Steam's Content Guidelines and ensure your game complies with both platform policies and UK laws.

 

[c3p0]

so, AI is unpopular here from the art perspective, but you know what AI is actually god for? Copy and paste your entire post into GPT and find out.

So, the recent advice from current gen AI like ChatGPT, Gemini and co are that useful? Aren't well know to have their share of problems themself (hallucination, bias, ...)? Also all AIs are always not up to date. This is with the current system not possible (gather information, train them and then release them).
So, as with all information from unkown source and AIs are unknow source (I don't know how they work, I don't know them, I don't know their input data, ...), the information should be verified by another source.

 

[tanstaafl]

So, the recent advice from current gen AI like ChatGPT, Gemini and co are that useful? Aren't well know to have their share of problems themself (hallucination, bias, ...)? Also all AIs are always not up to date. This is with the current system not possible (gather information, train them and then release them).
So, as with all information from unkown source and AIs are unknow source (I don't know how they work, I don't know them, I don't know their input data, ...), the information should be verified by another source.

Entirely depends on what you ask it. If you ask it to do higher math or something more in depth than "What are the laws behind so and so" you need to verify things. If you ask it about something as simple as laws and basic knowledge you can likely rely on the response. The problem most people have is that they've heard of AI's "hallucinating" and have no idea what that even means.

AI Hallucination occurs when an AI tries to create an answer on a topic that it has poor training data on. It will try to fill the gaps in its knowledge with supposition...because that is what it is programmed to do. Your question would have no gaps because your question is basic as fuck and could have been answered by a simple series of googling a few things but you were too lazy to do so. So yes, this answer has a high likelihood of being accurate.

 

[c3p0]

So, Ai output.

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Spoiler: Answer

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Spoiler: My opinion on this AI answer

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[tanstaafl]

For the content guidelines you could ask it about frequency of action taken against games of that sort to get an idea. That's the thing with AI. You will get general answers until you start drilling down for more details. It can give you accurate answer up to 2023 (if GPT 4o) but can't give you knowledge on current political trends, for instance.

 

[peterppp]

so, AI is unpopular here from the art perspective, but you know what AI is actually god for? Copy and paste your entire post into GPT and find out.

Edit: NM, I copied the OP here to GPT and here's what it said:


1. How do game developers actually make money from their game?
Game developers typically make money through various channels, including:

• Sales: Direct sales of the game through platforms like Steam, itch.io, or the developer's website.
• In-App Purchases: Selling additional content or features within the game.
• Advertising: Incorporating ads into free-to-play games.
• Crowdfunding: Using platforms like Kickstarter or Patreon to get funding from fans.
• Merchandising: Selling related merchandise such as posters, clothing, or other branded items.
• Sponsorships and Partnerships: Collaborating with brands or other companies for mutual benefit.

2. Am I allowed to even make money from a VN?
Yes, you are allowed to make money from a visual novel. If you plan to monetize your game, it will generally be considered self-employment. This means you will be responsible for:

• Registering as Self-Employed: You must register with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) as self-employed.
• Declaring Taxes: You must declare your earnings and pay any relevant taxes. This includes income tax and National Insurance contributions.
• VAT: If your earnings exceed the VAT threshold, you may need to register for and charge VAT.

3. What content can I actually make?
Content laws can be quite complex, especially when dealing with sensitive topics. In the UK:

• Incest: Depictions of incest can fall foul of UK obscenity laws. The Obscene Publications Act 1959 makes it illegal to publish any material that tends to "deprave and corrupt" persons who are likely to see it.
• Sleep Sex: Similar to the above, any non-consensual sexual activity is likely to be deemed obscene and could lead to legal issues.
• General Guidelines: Always consider the potential for your content to be considered obscene or harmful. Avoid content that includes non-consensual acts, extreme violence, or anything that could be seen as promoting illegal activities.

4. What rules apply to Steam?
Steam has its own set of rules and guidelines for what can be published on their platform. These include:

• Adult Content: Steam allows adult content but requires it to be properly flagged and age-gated.
• Prohibited Content: Steam does not allow content that exploits children, is unlawful, or promotes hate speech. This includes depictions of non-consensual sex, extreme violence, or illegal acts.
• Regional Restrictions: While some content may be accessible in the UK, it might not be available in other regions due to local laws. This can include restrictions on depictions of incest or non-consensual sex.

Given your concerns about specific content types, it's crucial to review Steam's Content Guidelines and ensure your game complies with both platform policies and UK laws.

you should stop posting ai answers. they look like the ai knows what it's talking about which can fool people into thinking everything is correct and relevant. for one thing, it seems to say non-con is prohibited on steam... which it isn't. but then it first says stuff about exploiting children and unlawful, so does it mean non-con in those situations? it's confusing at best

 

[tanstaafl]

you should stop posting ai answers. they look like the ai knows what it's talking about which can fool people into thinking everything is correct and relevant. for one thing, it seems to say non-con is prohibited on steam... which is isn't. but then it first says stuff about exploiting children and unlawful, so does it mean non-con in those situations? it's confusing at best

No, it says that non-con is technically not allowed by Steam's content policies, which is accurate. It didn't say that steam actually did anything about it, which it doesn't. As I said, AI gives general answers that you have to interpret then drill down into to try to parse with greater detail.

 

[Count Morado]

I will say that the AI response is better than most of the responses we'd find on this site --- which is usually "Fuck the law, fuck Patreon, fuck Steam... just make whatever you want (so we can jack off to it as we download it for free from F95 and then bitch you are milking your subscribers because you aren't releasing content fast enough for us to jack off to often enough because we play through the other 1000 games we watch in about 2 weeks)."

 

[c3p0]

I will say that the AI response is better than most of the responses we'd find on this site --- which is usually "Fuck the law, fuck Patreon, fuck Steam... just make whatever you want (so we can jack off to it as we download it for free from F95 and then bitch you are milking your subscribers because you aren't releasing content fast enough for us to jack off to often enough because we play through the other 1000 games we watch in about 2 weeks)."

You forgotten the whole bitching about that the game has content X in it but not Y or that X is bad or that LI 423 is shit and background cashier 17 should become main LI... - I stop, otherwise I'm sure would need more than one post to finish it.

 

[tanstaafl]

You forgotten the whole bitching about that the game has content X in it but not Y or that X is bad or that LI 423 is shit and background cashier 17 should become main LI... - I stop, otherwise I'm sure would need more than one post to finish it.

There is no solution to this problem. Focus on the legalities and making money.

 

[peterppp]

No, it says that non-con is technically not allowed by Steam's content policies, which is accurate. It didn't say that steam actually did anything about it, which it doesn't. As I said, AI gives general answers that you have to interpret then drill down into to try to parse with greater detail.

where do you find these Steam content policies? because the

You must be registered to see the links

doesn't say anything about rape. point 7 isn't close enough to say rape is technically not allowed

 

[tanstaafl]

As I said, technically not allowed. But not really enforced. You really can't extrapolate data can you? In the past they have banned exactly one rape game. They've banned more murder games than rape games oddly enough. I'm sure the reasoning was more about the intention of the games devs than the content though.

 

[peterppp]

View attachment 3802554
As I said, technically not allowed. But not really enforced. You really can't extrapolate data can you?

showing rape in a game violates laws?
i already commented on point 7.

you're just wrong and so is your ai

 

[tanstaafl]

showing rape in a game violates laws?
i already commented on point 7.

you're just wrong and so is your ai

What, because you said so about rule 7? That's how that works? They've used it to ban things before, that's why they worded it the way they did. It gives them the leeway to do what they want when they want. They can, at any time, say that a rape game violates their rules and they have (once). As I said, not really enforced though. They have it so they can have their cake and eat it too. Just because you're not smart enough to see the legal loop-de-loops doesn't change that.