How do you feel about Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters?

[tanstaafl]

Writing is a large part of how a game is made. Your complaint was extremely mild and tasteful, but still a complaint as seen here.



Again, you have every right to complain especially since you did it in a very tasteful way and did not make any sweeping generalizations or attacks on the devs themselves.

The rest of the examples I gave are not aimed at you but these are the types of comments that are often found in game threads. Just wanted to point out that whatever shortcomings people have with these games, they're not intentional. Just two years ago even the best games had complete garbage renders for today's F95 standards and animations were no more than a looped transition of two images. As some of these devs continue to stick around for the long haul, the bar will continue rising and even story telling/writing will improve. We're still in the Wild Wild West phase of western indie porn games.

Ok, I see where the misunderstanding is. I said something that I didn't even mention in my OP annoyed me, but probably should have been clearer in how I said it. The fake "not a gary stu" character is annoying. If you're going to have a Gary Stu, have a Gary Stu. If you're going to have a normal flawed person, have a normal flawed person. If you're going to have a Gary Stu and try to pretend it's not a Gary Stu then that becomes annoying.

 

[STWAdev]

I'd say that it's a difficulty that many writers face. In many lewd games players often project themselves into the character, so I think in general more people prefer to be "badass secret agent man" over "Billy Beta" as such devs may feel that it's important to give players that feeling of power. The problem is that when the character is perfect then you don't really have any place to take them because we all know Mr Perfect will solve the problem perfectly. You have to walk a tightrope between empowerment and challenge. If they're overpowered and then you strip them of that power without proper setup it creates ludonarrative dissonance (I think I'm using that right, but I might also be a moron) that will piss players off, if they're overly powerless people will probably get tired of it.

I like badass characters.
But not flawless characters.

HopesGaming really has it right here, you can create a badass and give them human flaws. I think for many creators however finding that balance can be tough. Just my two cents.

 

[215303j]

Likely little to no writing experience and you get a story on par with what you would expect if you would grab a random person off the street and tell them to write a book.

*Random guy grabs Gary Stu off the street and tells him to write a book*
Gary Stu: "Fuck you, go write something yourself, lazy fucker!!11!!21!"

 

[215303j]

With porn games specifically one major consideration will always be how you access the actual sex scenes. In that regard I generally favour Mary Sues/nigh omnipotence because those should logically offer the greatest amount of control over the scenes I view (and I don't have a surprise/sub/cuck/rape kink where loss of control is an integral part of it). I get far more annoyed when the game presents a Mary Sue and then denies me control for purely mechanical/resource limitation/incompetence reasons and the desired solution in that case is to properly empower the Sue rather than to write a less powerful character who fits the imposed constraints.

This, in my opinion, nails it.

Porn game writing *is* different than writing a book or a pron movie (huh? people write those?).

That said, I do think writers should find a way to make it interesting and not too much "on-rails".

 

[Fliptoynk]

I don't find anything wrong with mary and gary's they just vary depending on the players. we can make 'em doms or subs if given the chance.

but of course, it's okay to play a vn with short, pale, skinny dweeb of an MC. but for Mary? well... we wouldn't wanna have olive oyl or a land whale for mc now would we?

 

[Adabelitoo]

I never knew or thought the concept of Mary & Gary Sue until this moment. The first thing that got to my mind was this guy that from now on I'll call the Garyest of the Sue family.

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When I first met him as a kid-teen (10-15, idk) I absolutely loved him! It was and still is the most charming character I ever saw. Now with 26 I can totally notice how dumb or empty sometimes the story seems just to make him a Gary character, but it's not like I'm complaning honestly. It's just the way it is and the way the writter wanted to show it, I don't see any problems with that. I still love that show and I'll probably keep finding plot holes thanks to the Garyness but I don't think that's gonna make me like it anyless.

Now going from a Holywood production to an ametur porn game, the first Gary character I thought was the MC from Waifu Academy, and that one does annoys me because it's just stupidly Gary just for the holy prottection of plot armor. There was one thread here about "the smartest MC" and a lot of people mentioned him and I face palmed a little but I never understood why I did it or why would I disagree with them, until now.

As was said before, a lot of people play in an inmersive way so they would feel better with a Gary than a beta looser, it isn't like you can't have anything in the middle but the Garyest the character, the best for them. I'm not an inmersive player but that doesn't stop me from enoying characters to the fullest regardless of who they are. I guess that if my complain about WA wasn't the Gary MC then I would find another thing to complain. With a Gary or not, the game is great so it's not a big deal at the end of the day.

 

[tanstaafl]

I never knew or thought the concept of Mary & Gary Sue until this moment. The first thing that got to my mind was this guy that from now on I'll call the Garyest of the Sue family.

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When I first met him as a kid-teen (10-15, idk) I absolutely loved him! It was and still is the most charming character I ever saw. Now with 26 I can totally notice how dumb or empty sometimes the story seems just to make him a Gary character, but it's not like I'm complaning honestly. It's just the way it is and the way the writter wanted to show it, I don't see any problems with that. I still love that show and I'll probably keep finding plot holes thanks to the Garyness but I don't think that's gonna make me like it anyless.

Now going from a Holywood production to an ametur porn game, the first Gary character I thought was the MC from Waifu Academy, and that one does annoys me because it's just stupidly Gary just for the holy prottection of plot armor. There was one thread here about "the smartest MC" and a lot of people mentioned him and I face palmed a little but I never understood why I did it or why would I disagree with them, until now.

As was said before, a lot of people play in an inmersive way so they would feel better with a Gary than a beta looser, it isn't like you can't have anything in the middle but the Garyest the character, the best for them. I'm not an inmersive player but that doesn't stop me from enoying characters to the fullest regardless of who they are. I guess that if my complain about WA wasn't the Gary MC then I would find another thing to complain. With a Gary or not, the game is great so it's not a big deal at the end of the day.

If we're going to start naming names, I would have to say that WA's MC is a pretty distinctive Gary Stu, but he really has nothing on the king of all adult game Gary Stu's, Matsu from Ecchi Sensai. The man who has a harem 40 girls strong with no worries, was called "Tiger God" as a freaking teenager because he beat up all his grandmaster teachers, and faces down hired assassins and Yakuza bosses (this game's version anyway) with a cocky attitude. All while keeping this life completey secret from the rest of his family (except the super genius youngest daughter. Because why wouldn't he have a super genius daughter?).

 

[woody554]

Used a Jedi Mind trick as her FIRST attempt at using the force. 2. Fought a fully trained sith and lived. etc.

maybe it's just not that hard mastering the force after all. luke fucks around with a floating toy for 5 minutes and is ready to kill the death star. later he 'completes his training' by jogging in a swamp, doings flips and handstands. and that's it, luke's now the leading authority of jedi training in the galaxy! (yoda and obi-wan both being dead).

 

[tanstaafl]

maybe it's just not that hard mastering the force after all. luke fucks around with a floating toy for 5 minutes and is ready to kil the death star. later he 'completes his training' by jogging on a swamp, doings flips and handstands. and that's it, luke's now the leading authority of jedi training in the galaxy! (yoda and obi-wan both being dead).

lol, I actually love this debate. There are actual essays to be found on the net that break down pretty much all 9 movies to date to find examples to use against her. The most damning thing so far is that she mastered certain things without training that it took Anakin years to learn. And Anakin was the literal chosen focal point of the force.

 

[Adabelitoo]

If we're going to start naming names, I would have to say that WA's MC is a pretty distinctive Gary Stu, but he really has nothing on the king of all adult game Gary Stu's, Matsu from Ecchi Sensai. The man who has a harem 40 girls strong with no worries, was called "Tiger God" as a freaking teenager because he beat up all his grandmaster teachers, and faces down hired assassins and Yakuza bosses (this game's version anyway) with a cocky attitude. All while keeping this life completey secret from the rest of his family (except the super genius youngest daughter. Because why wouldn't he have a super genius daughter?).

I haven't played Ecchi Sensei yet, but if it comes to 40 girls + smartness then let me present you your new god.

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[tanstaafl]

I didn't played Ecchi Sensei yet, but if it comes to 40 girls + smartness then let me present you your new god.

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I was going to track down a scene in Ecchi Sensai where Matsu, when facing down a Yakuza assassin, literally catches on fire with badassness (blue fire mind you, can't have regular fire). But the game is too big and I'm lazy. But yeah, he does that.

 

[215303j]

When I first met him as a kid-teen (10-15, idk) I absolutely loved him! It was and still is the most charming character I ever saw.

You are talking about Sgt. Garcia, aren't you?

 

[tanstaafl]

You are talking about Sgt. Garcia, aren't you?

 

[215303j]

View attachment 790151

Well, he can do almost anything!

 

[WIRProductions]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a perfect character. We see them all the time without actually realizing it in my opinion. Look at the basically a lot of TV detective shows. Maybe once a series, or once every five seasons if it is a super successful series, do we see the MC(s) lose. How many times in Law and Order do the prosecution actually lose? How many times does the opposition get the final word, or do actual long-lasting harm to the MC(s)? They always come out on top and thus are perfect.

I think this is why, subconsciously, so many people were shaken up about Game of Thrones. It changed the formula because there was no 'MC(s)' like 99% of other shows, so anyone could lose and die from consequences of their actions. Robb was the 'perfect' example of that. He was Gary Stu. Had the looks, won every battle, could not put a foot wrong by getting the girl he wanted while keeping the alliance with the Freys...and then the Red Wedding. He ain't perfect anymore. His actions actually had consequences.

Porn games are the original formula. The player wants to win and wants the girl. It is the wish fulfillment of TV series that plays off the L&O example. Even if there is a moment for negativity and character growth, the outcome will still be perfect for the MC. They escape all consequences. They will be back the next episode doing things the exact same way as previous episodes.

I'd argue people do not see my TV series example as a Gary Stu because the events matter more than the characters, just like porn games. All we care about watching L&O is we see the cops catch the criminal, and the prosecution put them behind bars. It is why the various series have been able to survive multiple cast changes throughout 50+ seasons of combined viewing. Porn games are a genre in the same vein. Players want that same wish fulfillment.

 

[Sphere42]

I'd argue people do not see my TV series example as a Gary Stu because the events matter more than the characters, just like porn games.

Well the stricter definition of a Mary Sue is not just anyone who always succeeds in the end (which only makes sense to discuss in an episodic format to begin with) but someone who never struggles or needs to change at any point during their entire journey.