How do you feel about Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters?

[tanstaafl]

Definition:
A Mary Sue is a generic name for any fictional character who is so competent or perfect that this appears absurd, even in the context of the fictional setting. Mary Sues are often an author's idealized or flawless self-insertion. They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them. A male character with similar traits may be labeled a "Gary Stu".

Often in adult games I see characters that can easily be characterized as Mary Sues or Gary Stus. People who are good looking, with flawless physiques, perfect charm, and are put in ludicrous situations regularly and escape or "win" beyond all reason. On the other end of the spectrum, I also see truly pathetic characters who are created as lovable losers that somehow succeed in love (or harems, or netori, or whatever). What I rarely see are just normal people. Which is to be expected in this type of game.

My question is pretty simple, is the adult game genre singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus or are they as annoying as they are perceived to be in other forms of media/literature?

 

[woody554]

there seems to be a bunch of people who call for a gary stu in every game with an imperfect mc, but also there's us who hate the super navy seal secret agent mc with passion. not sure which is the bigger crowd.

a normal mc? not sure what that means, but sounds awfully boring. what's the idea behind a 'normal' mc? what does it do better than the most unlikely hero or the superman just waiting for his fall? seems like it would be the half wrong way to go for anything.

 

[Avaron1974]

I'd rather have a story filled with near perfect beings than a single shower spying sleep rapist.

I don't complain about the Stu family in games because anything is better than those shitty pervert characters that make me throw up in my mouth.

I'll take Lady sparkle hair with her perfectly formed abs, tits that leak chocolate milk and a pussy that tastes like cream of the gods over Mr Monologues while staring at a pair of tits like he's never seen them before.

The Stu brigade just make me roll my eyes at the siliness of it all, I can still read their stories. Those pathetic perverts that think spying on people in the shower is sexually gratifying ruin games for me and I end up deleting them.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

Variety is the spice of life? I guess in porn, Gary/Mary Sues is more tolerated because it aligns well with the goal of the players to bag as much pussy as possible. It's only in the long term that GMS get boring, when you can clearly see a pattern, but most games never get to that point. Personally, I hate GMS because I look for more of a story in the adult games I play.

 

[WIRProductions]

A perfect character is easy, and believable, for an author to create for a short porn game. Besides, it is a fantasy, and just like comic books, players want to imagine themselves being 'perfect'. Few games attempt to create a long, multi-facited story, having the MC go through trials and tribulations to earn their A+ skills. So many Patreon games barely manage to be supported long-term and/or get finished, that it is currently asking for a unicorn.

 

[tanstaafl]

So many Patreon games barely manage to be supported long-term and/or get finished, that it is currently asking for a unicorn.

Agreed on that. Whether the game was developed by a hobbyist that lost interest or by a dev that didn't make the $$ they were wanting, the number of abandoned games is depressingly high.

On the topic of my OP though, I've also noticed a trend of trying to sneak a Gary Stu by us by creating a character that is staggeringly good at most everything and good looking but has one HUGE personality defect. These actually annoy me the most as they rip me right out of any kind of immersion I might be having with a story. My personal opinion on Mary Sues/Gary Stus aligns with yours and other replies to this post for the most part. These games are based around fantasy, so I'm perfectly fine with a perfect character if the story around it can support it.

 

[HopesGaming]

I like badass characters.
But not flawless characters.

 

[tanstaafl]

I like badass characters.
But not flawless characters.

Dude, I love your game.

That said, I was actually thinking of your MC when I made the OP, mostly due to having just finished my first playthrough a day or so prior. He's a great example of creating the fantasy that most guys want to achieve without going too far and creating a Superman image. I mean, he gets close, but doesn't cross the line. Great writing to walk that tight rope, lol. (The blind fire over the box in the gun fight was a nice touch...Got a lol out of me.)

 

[215303j]

I don't complain about the Stu family in games because anything is better than those shitty pervert characters that make me throw up in my mouth.

I fully agree with this, but I think maybe it goes further.

Every person / player has IRL strengths and weaknesses.
Strengths and weaknesses interact with a person's character. Maybe one is formed by the other or vice versa but there is clearly a link.
People identify with other people who have similar characters and strengths and weaknesses.

The advantage of a "perfect" MC is, that I think more people will be able to self-identify with those, than with MC's with completely different personalities and strengths and weaknesses.

A player who is an outgoing jovial person will have difficulty identifying with a slightly autistic introverted MC and vice versa.
On the other hand, everybody can self identify with Mr. Almost-Perfect even if that's wishful thinking.
But there is a limit to what people can identify with, too perfect is also not good...

 

[morphnet]

what is normal?

 

[tanstaafl]

what is normal?

Yes, I get that these days like to quip about not being normal, but, unfortunately, the vast majority of people are normal. Idiosyncrasies don't make people not normal.

 

[morphnet]

Yes, I get that these days like to quip about not being normal, but, unfortunately, the vast majority of people are normal. Idiosyncrasies don't make people not normal.

yes but people where? culture, communities, societies differ around the world. What's normal in the west doesn't apply to the east. Arranged marriages are the norm in many countries but not in others. If it wasn't normal in your country you would find it strange in a game but a person from a country where arranged marriages was normal... that's what i meant.
Different people around the world are used to different types of normal

 

[Hooli Gali Marinzo]

For Porn games, I don't really care if the MC is a Mary Sue/Gary Sue. I'm more interested in the situations the MC gets into, the build up of sexual tension and the characterization of the Love interests.

 

[215303j]

yes but people where? culture, communities, societies differ around the world. What's normal in the west doesn't apply to the east. Arranged marriages are the norm in many countries but not in others. If it wasn't normal in your country you would find it strange in a game but a person from a country where arranged marriages was normal... that's what i meant.
Different people around the world are used to different types of normal

I don't really see the link with the topic, because people from all kinds of cultures and locations have strengths and weaknesses.

But generally you are absolutely correct and a lot of people don't understand just how diverse opinions can be over things that are absolutely self evident in some cultures but hardly possible in others.

What you could say that, in a different culture, a different person would be thought of as "very capable" or "perfect".

 

[morphnet]

I don't really see the link with the topic, because people from all kinds of cultures and locations have strengths and weaknesses.

But generally you are absolutely correct and a lot of people don't understand just how diverse opinions can be over things that are absolutely self evident in some cultures but hardly possible in others.

What you could say that, in a different culture, a different person would be thought of as "very capable" or "perfect".

well to explain, op said " What I rarely see are just normal people. Which is to be expected in this type of game " and then later asked " My question is pretty simple, is the adult game genre singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus or are they as annoying as they are perceived to be in other forms of media/literature? " and it seems to me that none of that fits. From cohabitation to light of my life to man of the house to holiday island to melody to where the heart is ect. none of the MC's are perfect or " truly pathetic characters " and by saying "singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus" i feel op is including alot of "normal" MC's because otherwise the list of games with "truely perfect MC's" isn't that big, so i was wondering what he thought normal was and i pointed out that normal for one person might not be normal for someone else in another part of the world.

 

[tanstaafl]

well to explain, op said " What I rarely see are just normal people. Which is to be expected in this type of game " and then later asked " My question is pretty simple, is the adult game genre singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus or are they as annoying as they are perceived to be in other forms of media/literature? " and it seems to me that none of that fits. From cohabitation to light of my life to man of the house to holiday island to melody to where the heart is ect. none of the MC's are perfect or " truly pathetic characters " and by saying "singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus" i feel op is including alot of "normal" MC's because otherwise the list of games with "truely perfect MC's" isn't that big, so i was wondering what he thought normal was and i pointed out that normal for one person might not be normal for someone else in another part of the world.

You don't have to be perfect to be a Gary Stu. For instance, when the first Star Wars sequel came out, there was a huge amount of backlash like

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that accuses Rey of being a Mary Sue. She wasn't perfect, but she 1. Used a Jedi Mind trick as her FIRST attempt at using the force. 2. Fought a fully trained sith and lived. etc. That is the definition of Mary Sue. It's not perfection, but it is well above normal. You see it quite a bit in these games. MCs that never lose, or are better than everyone at everything.

 

[Domiek]

My question is pretty simple, is the adult game genre singularly conducive to the Mary Sues/Gary Stus or are they as annoying as they are perceived to be in other forms of media/literature?

It has nothing to do with the adult genre specifically. The overwhelming majority of these games are done by regular folks with regular jobs and regular backgrounds. They aren't English or Lit majors, no computer science background, no 3D or any sort of game development background, no experience with cinematography.

These types of threads or comments pop up a lot for all aspects of adult game devs.

"The game code is so sloppy and buggy"

Well it's likely that the dev is learning how to code for the first time in their life.


"It's the same assets every time or why don't they do more than slice of life games?"

It's likely the dev has little to no modeling experience and relies on using whatever assets are available, and most of these assets are tailored towards slice of life.


"The camera angles look stupid."

Likely no directing experience.


"The animations suck!"

Likely animating for the first time with a hobbyist software with very primitive animation tools.


"The UI is so ugly."

Likely limited to no graphic design experience.


"Story sucks or why are there so many Mary Sue characters?"

Likely little to no writing experience and you get a story on par with what you would expect if you would grab a random person off the street and tell them to write a book.


A dev has to learn all these things from scratch while juggling their real life and job. It's fine to point these things out or even complain, but the answer almost every single time is "They don't have experience yet, it's not intentional".

We're trying guys, we really are.

 

[tanstaafl]

It has nothing to do with the adult genre specifically. The overwhelming majority of these games are done by regular folks with regular jobs and regular backgrounds. They aren't English or Lit majors, no computer science background, no 3D or any sort of game development background, no experience with cinematography.

These types of threads or comments pop up a lot for all aspects of adult game devs.

"The game code is so sloppy and buggy"

Well it's likely that the dev is learning how to code for the first time in their life.


"It's the same assets every time or why don't they do more than slice of life games?"

It's likely the dev has little to no modeling experience and relies on using whatever assets are available, and most of these assets are tailored towards slice of life.


"The camera angles look stupid."

Likely no directing experience.


"The animations suck!"

Likely animating for the first time with a hobbyist software with very primitive animation tools.


"The UI is so ugly."

Likely limited to no graphic design experience.


"Story sucks or why are there so many Mary Sue characters?"

Likely little to no writing experience and you get a story on par with what you would expect if you would grab a random person off the street and tell them to write a book.


A dev has to learn all these things from scratch while juggling their real life and job. It's fine to point these things out or even complain, but the answer almost every single time is "They don't have experience yet, it's not intentional".

We're trying guys, we really are.

Interesting response.

1. Wasn't complaining about games or how they were made.
2. Asked if people liked something or not. It was not a "This sucks, change it." post.

 

[Domiek]

Interesting response.

1. Wasn't complaining about games or how they were made.
2. Asked if people liked something or not. It was not a "This sucks, change it." post.

Writing is a large part of how a game is made. Your complaint was extremely mild and tasteful, but still a complaint as seen here.

On the topic of my OP though, I've also noticed a trend of trying to sneak a Gary Stu by us by creating a character that is staggeringly good at most everything and good looking but has one HUGE personality defect. These actually annoy me the most as they rip me right out of any kind of immersion I might be having with a story.

Again, you have every right to complain especially since you did it in a very tasteful way and did not make any sweeping generalizations or attacks on the devs themselves.

The rest of the examples I gave are not aimed at you but these are the types of comments that are often found in game threads. Just wanted to point out that whatever shortcomings people have with these games, they're not intentional. Just two years ago even the best games had complete garbage renders for today's F95 standards and animations were no more than a looped transition of two images. As some of these devs continue to stick around for the long haul, the bar will continue rising and even story telling/writing will improve. We're still in the Wild Wild West phase of western indie porn games.

 

[Sphere42]

I don't necessarily dislike "perfect" characters in other media either, it all depends on what purpose they serve and why I am interested in that particular story to begin with. For the most extreme example look at traditional cartoon series and how they fully reset the status quo or make arbitrary changes from one episode to the next (how often have Tom and Jerry died?)

On the flip side if the characters and their struggles are the focus of the entire story then those specific characters obviously need to struggle. You can still have God occasionally tuning in or some other cosmic entity always getting their way in the end as long as those aspects only form some kind of framing or side action. With games you additionally have the aspect of non-canon defeat within gameplay, even the bog-standard Game Over/"you died" screen removes the impression of a Mary Sue because we the players can and do fail even if the characters themselves never do within the story.

With porn games specifically one major consideration will always be how you access the actual sex scenes. In that regard I generally favour Mary Sues/nigh omnipotence because those should logically offer the greatest amount of control over the scenes I view (and I don't have a surprise/sub/cuck/rape kink where loss of control is an integral part of it). I get far more annoyed when the game presents a Mary Sue and then denies me control for purely mechanical/resource limitation/incompetence reasons and the desired solution in that case is to properly empower the Sue rather than to write a less powerful character who fits the imposed constraints.