How is the Subverse fight going to affect Adult Game Developers?

[Dark_Siren]

kind hated fans start saying utter garbage comments say with was conspiracy to shut him down or claim the moral high ground
saying that studio fow promotes rape and pedophile even though they don't even do loli content to my knowledge

 

[User_17502]

Wow after learning about his filing on the 8th I have changed my stance. Tim should shut the fuck up and sit down.
Just because his SEO is gone doesn't mean he can start a legal battle. Instead he should continue to focus on his brand of Subverse as people (and the majority of his viewers) will be able to distinguish the difference.
If he doesn't understand that, then maybe Subverse was an illfated venture to begin with.

 

[konterfaust]

"How is the Subverse fight going to affect Adult Game Developers?"

First up. This isn't a problem specific for adult games.... this could happen in any genre and in any form of media or other products.

But most of the games here are probably walking on pretty thin ice anyway (i don't want to know how many games featured on this site and on patreon were built with "unpaid" DAZ3D-Assets). But that is a different topic... and personally, i really don't care.


Regarding Tim Pool vs. StudioFOW

I'm definitely no expert in trademark or copyright law, but in my understanding this legal battle would only affect the US anyway and the game could still be called Subverse in the rest of the world.

If that's the case, Tim Pool has already lost no matter what. The name Subverse would still be tied to a wacky porn game on Google. It would be like Fahrenheit, which is called Indigo Prophecy in North America... but as far as i can remember no one actually called it that way. Even on sites like Wikipedia it was still called Fahrenheit with Indigo Prophecy only as a short remark.

And if you google "Subverse" there are a shit-ton of results on the first pages that aren't related to Tim Pool or StudioFOW. There is music with this name, there is a videogame consulting company called Subverse, there is clothing and stickers with "subverse" on it and of course this videoseries that is on Steam. If it's really just a made-up-word, why has no one properly protected it before?


And to be honest... i find it quite ironic a comedy porn game is taking the top-spot now. If you run a serious business, this is probably the last thing you want to be associated with.

 

[User_17502]

"How is the Subverse fight going to affect Adult Game Developers?"

First up. This isn't a problem specific for adult games.... this could happen in any genre and in any form of media or other products.

And to be honest... i find it quite ironic a comedy porn game is taking the top-spot now. If you run a serious business, this is probably the last thing you want to be associated with.

True but I am not in another form of media so...
Haha.

But yes I think thats really the reason he is causing a row.
He doesn't want his "serious business" associated with Studio FOW.
He disparages them as if FOW isn't a major player in entertainment and this venture could quite literally break our little niche community into the mainstream.
We might even get to use that maligned AO label eventually

 

[Dark_Siren]

True but I am not in another form of media so...
Haha.

But yes I think thats really the reason he is causing a row.
He doesn't want his "serious business" associated with Studio FOW.
He disparages them as if FOW isn't a major player in entertainment and this venture could quite literally break our little niche community into the mainstream.
We might even get to use that maligned AO label eventually

he does not know the can worms hes opening he will have to defended he trademark against every person that has it are there name or his trademark will be forfeit and there more people using that name then he thinks

 

[RanliLabz]

I've been subbed to Tim for years - and this is the first time I've heard of Subverse. He's made absolutely no attempt to link it to his brand - it doesn't even appear under the channels tab for most of his (far too many) channels.

I like Tim, but he should probably just let this go (and maybe take steps to secure his other brand-names). He might also want to start concentrating on his core - he showed such early promise as a real alt-journalist, but now just does the standard YouTube chatting shit about some article he read without bothering to do the research. Most of his work now appears to be on Timcast - which he introduced as a lowly side-channel, but has clearly garnered the most bucks with its click-baity low-effort BS. Can't see the quality difference now between Tim and any other rent-a-mouth on new or old media.

Back to the actual reporting and research - not wasting his time and money suing someone who has never heard of him.

 

[User_17502]

I've been subbed to Tim for years - and this is the first time I've heard of Subverse. He's made absolutely no attempt to link it to his brand - it doesn't even appear under the channels tab for most of his (far too many) channels.

I like Tim, but he should probably just let this go (and maybe take steps to secure his other brand-names). He might also want to start concentrating on his core - he showed such early promise as a real alt-journalist, but now just does the standard YouTube chatting shit about some article he read without bothering to do the research. Most of his work now appears to be on Timcast - which he introduced as a lowly side-channel, but has clearly garnered the most bucks with its click-baity low-effort BS. Can't see the quality difference now between Tim and any other rent-a-mouth on new or old media.

Back to the actual reporting and research - not wasting his time and money suing someone who has never heard of him.

Yeah, I think Tim tries to be a good reporter but he has a bad frame of mind when it comes to who is right and who is wrong.

 

[RanliLabz]

Yeah, I think Tim tries to be a good reporter but he has a bad frame of mind when it comes to who is right and who is wrong.

I agree. He used to dig down into reports and figures, and his fairly centrist position meant that he was able to be pretty fair in saying where one side had it right, and where the other had it right. Now he just kinda mouths off about things without caring.

He really got my interest way back when he travelled to Sweden to factcheck the news stories on it - made me think for a moment that there was a genuine chance of a new way of delivering high quality journalism in a way that bypassed the networks and went straight to the viewer. Sadly, looks like that was a one off (turning up to record a few rallies in a nearby state doesn't cut it - half the people at the demos have already posted it online and I can fact-check that myself!)

 

[Zippity]

I'm a firm supporter of Copyright and Trademark Laws when it comes to intellectual property... When an artist, author, etc. creates and publishes their works, I believe it should be protected from others directly copying from their works when creating other works, without permission... Most westernized countries have international copyright and trademark laws to help protect this kind of theft from occurring... And it's a sad day, when one artists steals from another to make a buck... And I'm not talking about concept theft, because those laws don't restrict someone using a similar concept...

Will it effect this particular niche of the porn industry? Probably only if the owner of the trademark, art, intellectual property, etc. decides to take the legal action necessary to go after those directly stealing from their works... Or if local law enforcement decides to take actions, depending on local/regional laws... When a thieving developer does what they do, they take a legal and financial risk that they will end up getting caught and possibly punished for doing so... You risk having to contend with both local, regional, and international law/statutes as well as Treaty Laws, when you decide to go that route... But of course, not everyone who uses someone else's trademarks or intellectual property thinks about that when they do it... Some think that this industry is nothing but a bunch of amateurish developers, artists, and authors who are not willing to protect what they make... And that is so not the right attitude to take, and could come back to bight them in the long run... If this niche industry ever began to make it into the big time industry market, I can see all sorts of legal actions taking place, across the board... Especially if corporations, outside of Japan, start trying to take control of it...

What is trademark infringement?

Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark (or a substantially similar mark) on competing or related goods and services. The success of a lawsuit to stop the infringement turns on when the defendant's use causes a likelihood of confusion in the average consumer.

Does a trademark need to be registered to guarantee protection?

Preventative measures which can be taken include: federal and state registration: A trademark does not need to be registered for the owner to prevent others from using a trademark or from using a confusingly similar mark. ... A trademark can be federally registered if it is used in interstate commerce.

You can find a lot of information on how Trademarks work (both registered and non-registered),

You must be registered to see the links

Zip

 

[User_17502]

I'm a firm supporter of Copyright and Trademark Laws when it comes to intellectual property... When an artist, author, etc. creates and publishes their works, I believe it should be protected from others directly copying from their works when creating other works, without permission... Most westernized countries have international copyright and trademark laws to help protect this kind of theft from occurring... And it's a sad day, when one artists steals from another to make a buck... And I'm not talking about concept theft, because those laws don't restrict someone using a similar concept...

Will it effect this particular niche of the porn industry? Probably only if the owner of the trademark, art, intellectual property, etc. decides to take the legal action necessary to go after those directly stealing from their works... Or if local law enforcement decides to take actions, depending on local/regional laws... When a thieving developer does what they do, they take a legal and financial risk that they will end up getting caught and possibly punished for doing so... You risk having to contend with both local, regional, and international law/statutes as well as Treaty Laws, when you decide to go that route... But of course, not everyone who uses someone else's trademarks or intellectual property thinks about that when they do it... Some thinking that this industry is nothing but a bunch of amateurish developers, artists, and authors who are not willing to protect what they make... And that is so not the right attitude to take, and could come back to bight them in the long run... If this niche industry ever began to make it into the big time industry market, I can see all sorts of legal actions taking place, across the board... Especially if corporations, outside of Japan, start trying to take control of it...

What is trademark infringement?

Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark (or a substantially similar mark) on competing or related goods and services. The success of a lawsuit to stop the infringement turns on whether the defendant's use causes a likelihood of confusion in the average consumer.

Does a trademark need to be registered to guarantee protection?

Preventative measures which can be taken include: federal and state registration: A trademark does not need to be registered for the owner to prevent others from using a trademark or from using a confusingly similar mark. ... A trademark can be federally registered if it is used in interstate commerce.

You can find a lot of information on how Trademarks work (both registered and non-registered),

You must be registered to see the links

Zip

Interesting. I didn't know that either.
Though considering how this is all playing out I think it might actually be a good thing for both if the conflict can be ended amicably.

 

[grtrader]

For people uninformed about the situation, Studio FOW started a

You must be registered to see the links

last month. They quickly gained all the traction and media attention they needed to skyrocket past their goal and are bounding over every stretch goal in their way.

Tim Pool, a fairly accurate journalist I follow, has also created

You must be registered to see the links

a company/channel he has been growing for years.
However according to Tim there can only be one Subverse and he vented his frustrations

You must be registered to see the links

Studio FOW has refused to engage with Tim regarding his concerns.
In response, he will be taking legal actions against Studio FOW in order to protect his trademark.
While I do understand his situation, I do not agree with his reaction.
But this conflict has raised a question in my mind, Do Developers have to trademark our projects or be forced to give up our names to "respectable" companies due to legal action?
If this is the case won't independent content creation become impossible as fear of legal ramifications would stymie any innovation?

I am hoping a few other developers way in on this as well as the community at large.

First, if he didn't trademark Subverse both in the US and in the EU he pretty much has no leg to stand on and his law suit will be a waste of time. Since it isn't a common word or name it is trademarkable. Take for example "windows" you shouldn't be able to get a trade mark on it however "Windows OS" one could.

If you have a trademark on a product you have to keep it up to date and enforce it.
He could still file for a Trade mark in the US and UK proving he had his in US for a longer period of time than the porn game.
That however doesn't mean he would necessarily win by going to court over it.
Take websites for example you can own a website with a company brand name. As long as what you put on there isn't directly related to that company regardless what it is their isn't much they can do about it.
In this case sure he doesn't like the fact a porn game is using the same name as his channel. The game however unless it is mentioning his channel or spreading lies about it their isn't much that can be done. Simply being in existence and showing matterial that isn't liked isn't enough to for most courts to award anything. Most the time the case is going to get dismissed.

 

[SeventhVixen]

About how affects Adult development.... I'll just say that in a good way. Now more people knows that adult games are created and sold in Steam (even as early access, that is specially good for me as I'm gonna publish soon (but Beta players are hard to find -_-)

About the naming thing? Well, Already told in this thread that Tim's subverse wasn't that big thing either; Trying to retain the name by legal means I think is just a bad move in this case. Have he even considered that having the same name as a popular product may help his views?...It's not strange in this world that lots of different things have the same name (just operating in different countries/areas of service)

 

[Drakan47]

it's worth mentioning, from what I gather pool doesn't actually HAVE a trademark, he's filed it, but it's still pending approval, and it could indeed get rejected, as it's become pretty obvious this trademark was filed with malicious intent I'd say it's in fact a rather likely outcome, one of the main reasons for rejection is if the term you intend to trademark is too common (and there's plenty of other things named subverse too), and the whole "I'm tademarking this in the videogame distribution field even though I don't do any of that" deal is also bad for him.

 

[armion82]

For people uninformed about the situation, Studio FOW started a

You must be registered to see the links

last month. They quickly gained all the traction and media attention they needed to skyrocket past their goal and are bounding over every stretch goal in their way.

Tim Pool, a fairly accurate journalist I follow, has also created

You must be registered to see the links

a company/channel he has been growing for years.
However according to Tim there can only be one Subverse and he vented his frustrations

You must be registered to see the links

Studio FOW has refused to engage with Tim regarding his concerns.
In response, he will be taking legal actions against Studio FOW in order to protect his trademark.
While I do understand his situation, I do not agree with his reaction.
But this conflict has raised a question in my mind, Do Developers have to trademark our projects or be forced to give up our names to "respectable" companies due to legal action?
If this is the case won't independent content creation become impossible as fear of legal ramifications would stymie any innovation?

I am hoping a few other developers way in on this as well as the community at large.

Did he actualy make that word-subverse?
So if he win I can go and make a claim that I made the word bat so Batman,Batgirl,Batwoman and Batcow must pay me

 

[grtrader]

Did he actualy make that word-subverse?
So if he win I can go and make a claim that I made the word bat so Batman,Batgirl,Batwoman and Batcow must pay me

I addressed that issue in my previous comment.
Common words can't be claimed if they could companies like microsoft would claim windows.
Subverse however isn't a word it appears to be a short for subversive. The origin of it would have to be traced back. It is similar in nature to Verizon. Verizon trademarked the name. If the person was smart they would have trademarked it on creation. But you can't just trademark it in one country and expect it to hold up, similarly with copyrights and patents.

So in short you won't ever be able to claim a word like bat and sue others for words containing it.
If you attempted to do so. The patent office should turn it down to start. But even if you managed to get it passed. Then it should get shredded in civil court to the point the patent office is forced to take it back. Then you would also face the issue of being sued for malicious prosecution (which is basically using law suits to harass people) and probably other issues. In short you would probably loose your rear in court on top of it.

 

[anne O'nymous]

• Studiofow registered their trademark in the UK in February
• Tim registered his in the US in April 2019, after the launch of the kickstarter

It's not just after the launch, it's after the undeniable success of the kickstarter ; at this time it was already clear that Studio Fow will earn a lot of money.
I don't know well US Law (it tend to protect US citizens in case of international conflict), but generally in case like this one, precedence goes to international anteriority. He'll still own the trademark in the US, but can't legally prevent Studio Fow to use it, even in the US, for their game because they registered the name before him.
But I really doubt that it will goes to the court. It would be a stupid move since Studio Fow now have a lot of money so they'll be able to defend themselves, their lawyer will just have to claim that it's a fraud tentative ; which it clearly is. And, like you also said, he don't even have anteriority as domain name, so he can't defend itself by saying that he registered the domain once he discovered that someone was trying to use what he implicitly owned.
He will gain a lot of attention, but lost a lot of money and credibility ; really not the right move.

 

[Hadley]

That guy has absolutely nothing to bargain with. He just wants some cheap attention.

 

[grtrader]

It's not just after the launch, it's after the undeniable success of the kickstarter ; at this time it was already clear that Studio Fow will earn a lot of money.
I don't know well US Law (it tend to protect US citizens in case of international conflict), but generally in case like this one, precedence goes to international anteriority. He'll still own the trademark in the US, but can't legally prevent Studio Fow to use it, even in the US, for their game because they registered the name before him.
But I really doubt that it will goes to the court. It would be a stupid move since Studio Fow now have a lot of money so they'll be able to defend themselves, their lawyer will just have to claim that it's a fraud tentative ; which it clearly is. And, like you also said, he don't even have anteriority as domain name, so he can't defend itself by saying that he registered the domain once he discovered that someone was trying to use what he implicitly owned.
He will gain a lot of attention, but lost a lot of money and credibility ; really not the right move.

US law while it does rely a lot on when something is registered it also has another aspect that is proof of use and creation date.

Technically there might be a 3rd party that has a stronger claim to it. I just did a domain check and subverse.com has been registered since 1997. That predates either of these from what I can see. There problem is they don't have the domain parked or even website. If they had a website or product attached to it they could show some sort of monetary value or income from then they could claim the other to infringed on them.

That said, if any of them can prove the name is in some way common all claims to it are off other than the domain use.

There is a reason you are supposed to research a trademark before hand.

As for legal battles. If he has the trademark he kind of is forced to legally attempt to enforce it or it can be ruled in court it is abandoned of sorts. Once you stop enforcing it you are kind of stuck not being able to so either you enforce it or you pretty much loose it. So lets say subversive productions doesn't file suit against Studio Fow and some new studio opens up and decides to make use of it also. Then the new studio could claim it wasn't enforced before so it must be abandoned effectively.

If the two companies are smart they will come to an agreement of some kind like well allow each other use of the trademark for the product and distribution. This way both companies can claim its enforced and retain the legal protection of it.

 

[mikeqb]

So get rid of the competition problem rather than making it so that a company can claim you're harming their image by merely existing in a market. To be clear, I don't even agree with intellectual property. The only thing I'm for as far as such laws go is plagiarism. Make your own thing, if you want to use the characters I designed to do it, cool, more power to you.

I know this is an old post now but that law does exist it's called fair use and is covered under parodies. Only when you actively rip from restricted information (data mined source code) will infringe upon fair use in the gaming market unless you out right make the exact same thing with the same characters.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I know this is an old post now but that law does exist it's called fair use and is covered under parodies. Only when you actively rip from restricted information (data mined source code) will infringe upon fair use in the gaming market unless you out right make the exact same thing with the same characters.

Fair use wouldn't allow you to make a mickey mouse cartoon. He's in the zeitgeist enough that you can get away with parodying him, but you can't outright use Mickey as a serious character in your work and profit from it, because mickey is the intellectual property of Disney. The same would legally follow for all of my content. A serious work containing my characters would be a breech of my intellectual property, and if I were so inclined, legally I'd be entitled to compensation for their use if someone was profiting from it. I don't agree with that, but it is in fact the way IP works.