How many branches do you want in a VN?

[Yngling]

Basically the reason why I personally prefer VN's / games over real porn and erotica is that in a VN we can make choices which impact the story, shaping it to our liking.

But it seems that a lot of players just want to see all possible content (minus, perhaps, a few controversial fetishes, if they are avoidable, like peeing or trap content etc.).

For me personally it does depend on the story: some stories are really good and warrant such choices and branching paths, other games I mostly play for the visuals and sex scenes.

In particular it also comes down to seeing content with possible love interests. Are you going to turn down a pretty girl if it makes the story of an even prettier girl more interesting?

Or is it more about how you want to play it? Do you want to be a nice guy or a creepy bastard?

Or do you want a game to be like GGGB: many, wildly branching. paths where it is uncertain where you end up if you make a certain choice?

 

[qwsaq]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I feel like "paths" is simply not a good way to approach things. Most of the time it basically amounts to making two (or more) completely different games and a bunch of content half of your audience will never, ever see.
VN's locking "X" content out because you chose "Y" content for the sake of replayability is a lot like RPGM games requiring copious amounts of cut-and-paste combat and unnecessary grind for the sake of added playtime. It's

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at its finest.

A meaningful choice should be one that has non-trivial impacts on the "day-to-day" events of the game. The core story should remain primarily linear IMO.

 

[anne O'nymous]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I feel like "paths" is simply not a good way to approach things. Most of the time it basically amounts to making two (or more) completely different games and a bunch of content half of your audience will never, ever see.

From my experience it's the opposite and there's way more games that are on the side of Karlsson's Gambit, where each routes is offering you a different perspective for the same story, than on the side of Snowstorm, where it seem that the routes will effectively tell you different stories.

But in the end, most of the time those routes don't even impact the story, only changing the interaction you have with the girls, and with what girls you'll have those interaction. And from what OP said, both in the thread opening and the poll, it's what he's talking about here.

VN's locking "X" content out because you chose "Y" content for the sake of replayability

Why should it necessarily be for the sake of replayability ? It can perfectly be for the pleasure of the player.
Since the poll have a "good, bad, neutral" choice, the replayability value is relatively limited here. Most players will not play again to follow the routes that don't appeal to them, whatever if it's because they don't like to play a bad guy or, at the opposite, they find nice romantic lover boring.
It also offer to the creators the possibility to put the kind of content they want to write, while still letting players who wouldn't like it to enjoy the rest of the story.

It's

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at its finest.

It would be if it was a target, what isn't the case. Accordingly to all the "is [whatever] optional" that can be seen in game threads, it's even the opposite of a target. Once again because it's what OP is talking about here.
There's no effective difference between a good/bad two routes game and a NTR/Faithful two routes game, and there's a part of the community that is asking for this.

A meaningful choice should be one that has non-trivial impacts on the "day-to-day" events of the game. The core story should remain primarily linear IMO.

So, for you a meaningful choice is choice that change nothing about what is important, the story. Because it is what is effectively important. There's more than 14,000 games available, and the vast majority of them let you have sex with the characters. What make them different, to some extend, isn't the lewd content, it's the story.
Snowstorm, that I named above, will not really be different in its lewd content from Harem Hotel and thousands other games. But a game where you play a guy from our times that will be stuck in Scandinavia during the middle age, there isn't much. If what you want is to fap, Harem Hotel is way better, because the lewd happen way faster. If you choose to play Snowstorm, it will be because the story interest you.

 

[Mano_Muerta]

I'm not much of visual novels but when I play them I like when are 2 or 3 paths with alternative endings but I like that the paths split at a specific point where I can make a save point because I don't like to start from the beginning

 

[DawnCry]

Let's be fair, the thing that tends to happen in visual novels with choices is that they feel like they don't matter at all. There is a clear overuse of useless choices and choices that lead towards a game over and we can't forget the typical "a girl is changing, wanna peak?".

But I have to say that I don't feel like players are very interested in meaningful choices compared to getting to sexy times fast and all the text being just a context.

I'm not a fan of visual novels cause I prefer to have some gameplay in my games but the ones I did play like majikoi managed to at least be interesting for me because there are conflicts, relationship issues... most visual novels I see are really bland, usually a pervert trying to get their way or we have a few very defined paths based on getting a harem and the other being cucked.

But that's about it.

 

[HarveyD]

I think one thing that a lot of devs do, that I feel they shouldn't, is making choices solely about love interests. If your game has ten moments where there's a choice but each choice is "Spend time with girl A or girl B" then you only actually have 2 choices in your game. Story choices and lewd choices should be separate.

 

[woody554]

it's not so much about routes for me, but I like enough choices to give the illusion that my actions make a difference. the second I feel railroaded I lose all interest and probably quit. the first thing I typically do in a game is pick the worst asshole choices, like grab mom's tits day one, and if the game lets me get away with it I quit instantly. because I already know none of my choices will matter and there's not gonna be anything to play for.

 

[Yngling]

A meaningful choice should be one that has non-trivial impacts on the "day-to-day" events of the game. The core story should remain primarily linear IMO.

Then, how is it different from watching a porn movie?

Hot girl sees hot guy, sex ensues. Maybe with some dialogue.

To me that is pretty boring. But clearly opinions differ.

But I have to say that I don't feel like players are very interested in meaningful choices compared to getting to sexy times fast and all the text being just a context.

The "Only one: got to see all content in one playthrough" does get a fair amount of votes...

Why should it necessarily be for the sake of replayability ? It can perfectly be for the pleasure of the player.

It also offer to the creators the possibility to put the kind of content they want to write, while still letting players who wouldn't like it to enjoy the rest of the story.

Exactly.

I am, however, talking about something a bit more meaningful than just avoiding specific content, like giving the option to have vaginal or anal sex in a scene. That, to me, is not a "significant choice".

But choice between completely different routes (like in GGGB) or between different versions (good / bad) of the same story is something meaningful.

I think one thing that a lot of devs do, that I feel they shouldn't, is making choices solely about love interests. If your game has ten moments where there's a choice but each choice is "Spend time with girl A or girl B" then you only actually have 2 choices in your game. Story choices and lewd choices should be separate.

Why not? It's the same IRL: you can't date two girls at the exact same time (e.g. friday evening 20:00). You can date two girls simultanuously but they might get jealous and cause problems.

What's wrong with choice? I think that if a game manages to present you with a dilemma that the player feels really conflicted about is about the highest achievement. For example, in Fallout 4, the story is about the MC finding his son. Spoiler: When he finally finds him, he turns out to be the leader of a faction which I consider absolutely evil. So the dilemma is: do you join your son in an evil faction, or do fight your son with another righteous faction? I happen to think that this is great writing.

For an adult game, a choice like you present, to go for girl A or girl B is perfectly reasonable. Maybe you are attracted to both, but for different reasons. If it's clear that you can't have both at the same time, then you have your dilemma. And, coincidentally, in this particular case, also replay value.

 

[HarveyD]

Why not? It's the same IRL: you can't date two girls at the exact same time (e.g. friday evening 20:00). You can date two girls simultaneously but they might get jealous and cause problems.

What's wrong with choice? I think that if a game manages to present you with a dilemma that the player feels really conflicted about is about the highest achievement. For example, in Fallout 4, the story is about the MC finding his son. Spoiler: When he finally finds him, he turns out to be the leader of a faction which I consider absolutely evil. So the dilemma is: do you join your son in an evil faction, or do fight your son with another righteous faction? I happen to think that this is great writing.

For an adult game, a choice like you present, to go for girl A or girl B is perfectly reasonable. Maybe you are attracted to both, but for different reasons. If it's clear that you can't have both at the same time, then you have your dilemma. And, coincidentally, in this particular case, also replay value.

Your example was completely pointless because Fallout isn't an Adult VN and you aren't trying to fuck your son. It's also exactly the kind of choice I was asking for. Whichever choice you make you can still romance whoever you want. Seeing as another commenter mentioned Snowstorm I'll use Sandstorm as another example.

There's a moment in the game where your group finds itself somewhat lost inside an ancient pyramid. One love interest wants to continue exploring deeper, and the other wants to leave. In that situation I would have chosen to leave, I ain't staying in no creepy pyramid. But that wasn't what the LI I was interested in wanted to do. The game uses a point system with the LIs and you need to reach certain thresholds for certain scenes, so my choice is made for me. From the moment the game introduces the point system it invalidates all future choices, you're no longer picking between doing two actions but instead simply between two LIs.

I never said there shouldn't be any choice. There most certainly should be. I just said the choice between LI should not be intrinsically linked to story decisions.

 

[Meaning Less]

From the moment the game introduces the point system it invalidates all future choices, you're no longer picking between doing two actions but instead simply between two LIs.

But now you are just giving a game with a bad system as example, just because there is a point system doesn't mean you should always make a unilateral choice, in fact many games actually require you to balance points carefully if you want to unlock more content later. Sometimes you need enough points with ALL characters if you want the "harem ending" otherwise you will end up with just one of them.

You are the one discarding other choices because that's how you play, but that doesn't mean it is how every game should be played...

In fact that's exactly why it is fun to have more branching outcomes to see how things change once you make different choices, to me nothing more disappointing than starting a new game making different choices only to realize that nothing is changing... As a rule of thumb If nothing is going to change then those choices probably should be removed.

 

[qwsaq]

Then, how is it different from watching a porn movie?

So I'm not sure if this qualifies as a visual novel, but I'd say an example of the "gold standard" for how choices should work in a game would be The Company.
There's one linear story driven by forces beyond the player's control. What happens happens. However, you have tons of choice in how you interact with other characters and how they, in turn, interact with you. Major story events always play out in (almost) exactly the same way with only some slight dialogue changes. But the lulls in between can be "customized" to your heart's content.

Another way to put it: There shouldn't be branching paths, more like consequences for your actions.

 

[HarveyD]

But now you are just giving a game with a bad system as example, just because there is a point system doesn't mean you should always make a unilateral choice, in fact many games actually require you to balance points carefully if you want to unlock more content later. Sometimes you need enough points with ALL characters if you want the "harem ending" otherwise you will end up with just one of them.

You are the one discarding other choices because that's how you play, but that doesn't mean it is how every game should be played...

In fact that's exactly why it is fun to have more branching outcomes to see how things change once you make different choices, to me nothing more disappointing than starting a new game making different choices only to realize that nothing is changing... As a rule of thumb If nothing is going to change then those choices probably should be removed.

Perhaps there are many games that have a better system, in which case I congratulate them. But they are in the minority of the games that I have played.

My point was simply that I've seen a lot of games that do that and I think it gives the choices less impact when they're tied to seeing content with a LI. I feel like that's a pretty fair opinion to have.

 

[Yngling]

Your example was completely pointless because Fallout isn't an Adult VN and you aren't trying to fuck your son. It's also exactly the kind of choice I was asking for. Whichever choice you make you can still romance whoever you want.

What does fucking your son have to do with it? My point is, a good dilemma should make the player feel conflicted, with good and bad points for each outcome.

It doesn't necessarily have anything to with sex.

It can apply to anything, including what kind of car or house you buy. Every choice you make is some kind of trade-off. Another classic RPG trade-off might be that you need to choose between wearing the heavy armour or carrying more loot.

But that is not what I call a dilemma.

There's a moment in the game where your group finds itself somewhat lost inside an ancient pyramid. One love interest wants to continue exploring deeper, and the other wants to leave. In that situation I would have chosen to leave, I ain't staying in no creepy pyramid. But that wasn't what the LI I was interested in wanted to do. The game uses a point system with the LIs and you need to reach certain thresholds for certain scenes, so my choice is made for me. From the moment the game introduces the point system it invalidates all future choices, you're no longer picking between doing two actions but instead simply between two LIs.

At first glance, this dilemma is not so bad. You need to choose between what an LI wants and what you think is wise.
The LI might get herself killed and you might get a gameover if you continue exploring.

At second glance, a woman who can't deal with a man deciding something like that in a different manner than herself probably isn't worth your time. Can you imagine the arguments later in married life with her??? If a LI has a bad character, this makes her less desirable to me, never mind how she looks.

So if not going deeper into the pyramid means you can't have a relationship with the girl, that means either poor game design, poor character design or both.

 

[HarveyD]

What does fucking your son have to do with it? My point is, a good dilemma should make the player feel conflicted, with good and bad points for each outcome.

It doesn't necessarily have anything to with sex.

It can apply to anything, including what kind of car or house you buy. Every choice you make is some kind of trade-off. Another classic RPG trade-off might be that you need to choose between wearing the heavy armour or carrying more loot.

But that is not what I call a dilemma.


At first glance, this dilemma is not so bad. You need to choose between what an LI wants and what you think is wise.
The LI might get herself killed and you might get a gameover if you continue exploring.

At second glance, a woman who can't deal with a man deciding something like that in a different manner than herself probably isn't worth your time. Can you imagine the arguments later in married life with her??? If a LI has a bad character, this makes her less desirable to me, never mind how she looks.

So if not going deeper into the pyramid means you can't have a relationship with the girl, that means either poor game design, poor character design or both.

Jesus Fucking Christ. Good choices not being about sex was my entire point. These things being poor game design was my point. What are you even trying to argue?

 

[Yngling]

So I'm not sure if this qualifies as a visual novel, but I'd say an example of the "gold standard" for how choices should work in a game would be The Company.
There's one linear story driven by forces beyond the player's control. What happens happens. However, you have tons of choice in how you interact with other characters and how they, in turn, interact with you. Major story events always play out in (almost) exactly the same way with only some slight dialogue changes. But the lulls in between can be "customized" to your heart's content.

Another way to put it: There shouldn't be branching paths, more like consequences for your actions.

Don't know that game but I'll check it out.

It sounds like it falls in my "Two or three major routes, like a "good, bad and neutral" one" category.

How much influence a person has on events is a kind of philosophical question anyway, and I guess it depends on which level you are looking at things. For example, a parent can have quite a lot of impact on his child, but the same person probably has very little impact on the price of oil.

 

[Meaning Less]

My point was simply that I've seen a lot of games that do that and I think it gives the choices less impact when they're tied to seeing content with a LI. I feel like that's a pretty fair opinion to have.

And I agree with you, all I'm saying is that if that is how a specific VN is truly supposed to be played then it is just a poorly planned VN.

If you are able to completely lock yourself out of a character just because you missed a single point with them when making a different choice, then what is even the point of allowing the player to make that choice while already in that character route?

 

[Yngling]

What are you even trying to argue?

1) Good dilemma's might be about sex but don't have to be. Making them somewhow about sex does seem likely if we consider AVN's. It might be about the player indulging in fetishes he normally wouldn't go for, just to progress with a certain LI or the general story (e.g. Fetish Locator).
2) Dilemma's are dependent on proper game design.
3) In my opinion good dilemma's are really beneficial to a story-based game because it makes the player feel involved instead of just a spectator.

If you agree you have a interesting way of saying so...

 

[HarveyD]

I think one thing that a lot of devs do, that I feel they shouldn't, is making choices solely about love interests.

1) Good dilemma's might be about sex but don't have to be.

If you agree you have a interesting way of saying so...

This is the same thing. It was the first thing I said.


To be very clear here. I was saying that devs should NOT make their choices be just about which love interest the protagonist pursues. There should be choices independent of that decision.

 

[qwsaq]

It sounds like it falls in my "Two or three major routes, like a "good, bad and neutral" one" category.

I feel like it falls out of your paradigm in some ways.
Each character has their own set of "routes" but if you choose one route with one character, there's a high likelihood you'd choose a similar one with another. But then again, many characters have more than one route that would appeal to the same person with a slightly different take on what a sub or dom might enjoy. So maybe it's your "as many as possible" choice but since nothing about the core story changes, it could even fit in the "only one" category.

This is what I mean when I say "paths" is just not a good way to approach what it means to have choices.

 

[desmosome]

Broadly speaking, when playing a male MC non-NTR game, I prefer to have some influence on the disposition of the MC. That generally means a good/evil or love/corruption type of game design.

What I find really boring are the single variable systems that track something like "relationship" which gatekeeps the scenes. This type of coding generally leads to what I call "null choices" because you are often presented with an obviously correct answer (be a simp) that gives +1 rel point, and a wrong choice that gives you no points. Because these types of games generally also follow a linear story progression without alternative states, there is no real reason to opt out. Yes, if you want to avoid some woman or pursue a relationship with just one, you can do that, but chances are, the game will not really acknowledge this in the script other than skipping the relevant scenes and jumping to the next node in the plot.

More specifically, whether it be a love/corruption type or a single variable game, the more important thing to consider is how well the dev tracks the choices you make. This means setting flags for any seemingly important choice so they can refer back to it later if necessary. The payoff can be a significant alternate story branch or just some minor alternate text, but tracking these flags and referring to it later in the script is what leads to the feeling that your choices are making a difference in how the story develops. The advantage of flags over variables is that flags can track individual past events while variables can only track the current state of things.