How many images do you expect for the initial release of a VN and an update?

[BiggestDickest]

Hi, I know this is actually two questions so, just answer the first one in the poll, then answer the second one in a post. By number of images, I'm referring to the number of images that you will see in a single playthrough. Many games have branching choices or optional angles that you may or may not see, so I wouldn't count them in. Probably could do a second poll on the second question but let's see how many responses there are first. Well, might as well ask the third one. With your expected amount of images in an update, how often do you think the update should take?

Edit: And if your answer for the first one is way higher than the options available, you could say that in a post too.

 

[Meaning Less]

Number of images is irrelevant. What actually matters for any initial release is that it showcases the planned content and mechanics of the game properly.

First impression is really important, games released too soon or without enough content can easily give the wrong impression to users (or the right one considering many of them get abandoned right after). To say that you should give your absolute best right at the start is probably an understatement, that is if you wanna give a good impression.

 

[BiggestDickest]

Number of images is irrelevant. What actually matters for any initial release is that it showcases the planned content and mechanics of the game properly.

First impression is really important, games released too soon or without enough content can easily give the wrong impression to users (or the right one considering many of them get abandoned right after). To say that you should give your absolute best right at the start is probably an understatement, that is if you wanna give a good impression.

I absolutely agree that games should be clear about what they are about. However, I still think that people do have expectation of the number of images or the amount of content in the first release and the updates. Like, I could give you the full transcript of a game from the beginning, with no images. That would be very clear, but no one would accept that.

 

[Meaning Less]

Like, I could give you the full transcript of a game from the beginning, with no images. That would be very clear, but no one would accept that.

If it was a text-based game, people would expect that actually.

What actually matter is how long did it take to complete the first version, if you have 300 images but none of them are sexual and the story ends in a few minutes that's probably not enough. But a game with 30 images that is a sandbox and it takes some time to unlock each image can already have hours of gameplay.

 

[BiggestDickest]

If it was a text-based game, people would expect that actually.

What actually matter is how long did it take to complete the first version, if you have 300 images but none of them are sexual and the story ends in a few minutes that's probably not enough. But a game with 30 images that is a sandbox and it takes some time to unlock each image can already have hours of gameplay.

I see. Well that's kind of what troubles me when it comes to sandbox games I guess. I always feel there aren't enough images in many sandbox games. On the contrary, I think a straightforward VN, even if it only lasts for minutes, is enough for me. Personal preference though.

 

[GreenGobbo]

Super dependent on the amount of story.

More words = more pics.

At this point in time I'm not looking for VNs where you read about how someone picked up a shot glass and downed it all at once while staring at a generic bar background and a motionless character model roughly facing the direction of the screen. I'm expecting the game to show us that character reachnover, grab it, chug it, and set the empty glass back down on the counter
Even if you have to break it down into a slide show, it's still better than writing it out, and using proper posing and facial expressions with the models during the sequence can emphasize a mood or character aspect.

Still for as much as I fully believe in the "show, don't tell" axiom, there's only so much you can do with a VN without writing. So when physical motions are called, add in a new image or 3. Maybe even an animation.
If you're just standing/sitting around having a conversation or exposition dumping you o mlm ly really need to do a tiny amount up image jumps. Other characters blinking, moving their hands mouths, or angle of their head while they speak. Background stuff ypdating lkke a cloud rolling by, people walkkng past, dog running off with a severed hand in it's blood soaked maw. That kinda stuff.

 

[Meaning Less]

If you're just standing/sitting around having a conversation or exposition dumping you o mlm ly really need to do a tiny amount up image jumps.

That's another issue by counting the number of images out of context, because how many of them depict actual relevant content?

I honestly don't understand devs that waste time rendering tons of useless scenes that add nothing to the story, things like creating multiple renders for a conversation scene just changing the camera angle but nothing relevant happens seems like a huge waste of development/render time and disk space.

Some of those scenes could still work just as well with less renders and that would free up more render time to actual relevant scenes later on.

But I guess that is just part of the indie development process and are all things that go into consideration when someone plays a first version of a game.

 

[BiggestDickest]

That's another issue by counting the number of images out of context, because how many of them depict actual relevant content?

I honestly don't understand devs that waste time rendering tons of useless scenes that add nothing to the story, things like creating multiple renders for a conversation scene just changing the camera angle but nothing relevant happens seems like a huge waste of development/render time and disk space.

Some of those scenes could still work just as well with less renders and that would free up more render time to actual relevant scenes later on.

But I guess that is just part of the indie development process and are all things that go into consideration when someone plays a first version of a game.

Another point that I agree with. I am kinda a manga fan, and the kind of images that you would find in manga is what I'd expect in a VN. So none of those images with just a difference of an open or closed mouth. Every new image should be a new critical moment.

 

[GreenGobbo]

That's another issue by counting the number of images out of context, because how many of them depict actual relevant content?

I honestly don't understand devs that waste time rendering tons of useless scenes that add nothing to the story, things like creating multiple renders for a conversation scene just changing the camera angle but nothing relevant happens seems like a huge waste of development/render time and disk space.

Some of those scenes could still work just as well with less renders and that would free up more render time to actual relevant scenes later on.

But I guess that is just part of the indie development process and are all things that go into consideration when someone plays a first version of a game.

Thank you for quoting the part where my fingers flubbed the line and I missed it so I couldn't go back and edit it out.
On a more on topic note...
I actually don't fault devs for doing that. Makes the conversations feel a bit more natural.
Seeing the "other person" gesticulate while they speak. Noticing how they blink, or the rise and fall of their chest. Using their hand to brush back some hair. Little stuff like that may not seem like a lot at first, but it can make the difference between a scene feeling alive, and a scene where the MC is just talking to himself in front of a statue.

 

[Meaning Less]

I actually don't fault devs for doing that. Makes the concersations feel a bit more natural.

While I agree that there are benefits to it on some cases, there are probably way more detriments. I mean that is if the dev plans to finish their game in the current decade.

Knowing where you should focus is probably the most important skill game devs have to learn. Imagine wasting hours designing and rendering a unique and very detailed object that is only going to be shown once and barely matters to the story?

Even AAA devs don't have time to waste on minor/wasteful elements unless they are essential part of the game or if they are part of a crucial cutscene to convey feelings that can't be conveyed otherwise.

Adding some extra animations on a rendered game makes sense, because you just give a command to move their eyes/mouth and that costs almost nothing. But on a pre-rendered game, you basically are re-rendering and entire scene and just changing the eye position of a single character for that single image and never using it again? That sounds very wasteful.

And that is the thing, a well designed game with 300 images is probably long enough, but a game with lots of random renders depicting the exact same thing in different angles is probably very short. That's why images alone are a useless metric unless you actually play the game and see how they are being used.

 

[Droid Productions]

Games are not sold by the kg, or by the render.

Aim for ~45 min - 1 hr of non-grindy gameplay for the first release. You can do internal beta builds for testers and posted to your discord before that, but until you have enough that someone arriving at the game can see what you're making, and get attached to the characters, and say "hell yeah, I want to see where this is going", you shouldn't launch yet.

 

[BiggestDickest]

Games are not sold by the kg, or by the render.

Aim for ~45 min - 1 hr of non-grindy gameplay for the first release. You can do internal beta builds for testers and posted to your discord before that, but until you have enough that someone arriving at the game can see what you're making, and get attached to the characters, and say "hell yeah, I want to see where this is going", you shouldn't launch yet.

But most of the VNs I have played here don't last nearly as long as an hour. I can see that being a standard for sandbox games but progressing in VN is extremely fast. Would you have a different expectation for VN?

 

[Winterfire]

A hour is 18k words (With the average reading speed of 300 words per minute), it is not exactly impossible to reach.

 

[Droid Productions]

But most of the VNs I have played here don't last nearly as long as an hour. I can see that being a standard for sandbox games but progressing in VN is extremely fast. Would you have a different expectation for VN?

No.

Go look at the games that took off, in terms of Patreon support or in terms of thread activity, and see what their first "launch" version looked like. Look at the first releases of BaDIK, CoBD, Radiant, etc. Yes, I know many of those are the second game from that dev, remember that this largely that reflects their lessons learned.

If I download a new game I expect to play a game, not a 0.0.1alpha techdemo. You might feel that just getting it out there is super cool, but the user doesn't care about your ego, and they're not there to play your 2 min long piece of creative mastrubation.

Use a development thread, or a discord community, to test and to keep creatively recharged by feedback. Then once it's at the stage where someone can download it, fall in love with your characters, know the direction of the plot and hunger for the next step... then you launch it.

But, as always, this is just a personal opinion. Good luck.

 

[Crosaith.]

Both. There's gotta be enough content to get me hooked and want to come back for more. At least one hour of reading for each update. Can't stand 10-15 minute micro updates that some devs do. I'm not able to get invested in those and end up skipping multiple updates till there's a decent amount of content.

 

[Winterfire]

Both. There's gotta be enough content to get me hooked and want to come back for more. At least one hour of reading for each update. Can't stand 10-15 minute micro updates that some devs do. I'm not able to get invested in those and end up skipping multiple updates till there's a decent amount of content.

They're made for that purpose.
People have the choice to either play each update, or wait... At the end, the time spent to reach 1 hour would be the same.

 

[Crosaith.]

They're made for that purpose.
People have the choice to either play each update, or wait... At the end, the time spent to reach 1 hour would be the same.

Well yeah... that's true if releasing four 250 picture updates equals the same amount of dev time and quality as one 1000 picture update. I imagine shorter deadlines & connecting content between releases more often leads to... more issues and less efficiency.

 

[Winterfire]

Well yeah... that's true if releasing four 250 picture updates equals the same amount of dev time and quality as one 1000 picture update. I imagine shorter deadlines & connecting content between releases more often leads to... more issues and less efficiency.

Depends on how you do it, but in general no. I went from weekly updates, to 2-3 updates per month to 1 update a month and the only thing that has changed is more content on the latter... Which split up in 2 or 3 would equal to the same amount I had done previously.

Generally the issue is not so much the content which should stay the same if done correctly, but the type of game and their size.
Multiple small content updates work for some types of games and do not for others, likewise if you have a 5gb+ game you'll want to aim for big monthly releases rather than going through the pain of having to upload 5gb so often and expecting players to be willing to download it.

 

[Crosaith.]

Depends on how you do it, but in general no. I went from weekly updates, to 2-3 updates per month to 1 update a month and the only thing that has changed is more content on the latter... Which split up in 2 or 3 would equal to the same amount I had done previously.

Generally the issue is not so much the content which should stay the same if done correctly, but the type of game and their size.
Multiple small content updates work for some types of games and do not for others, likewise if you have a 5gb+ game you'll want to aim for big monthly releases rather than going through the pain of having to upload 5gb so often and expecting players to be willing to download it.

I'm legit happy that works well for you. Checked out your game and It's cool that you're upfront about 15 minute updates in your patch notes. I still have doubts & preferences when it comes to shorter dev cycles, but it's good to know it can work well.

 

[MissFortune]

Look at the first releases of BaDIK, CoBD, Radiant, etc. Yes, I know many of those are the second game from that dev, remember that this largely that reflects their lessons learned.

That's a largely broken comparison. The former two were both quite successful nearing the end of their first project (specifically Philly, but point remains the same), along with both having completed projects before putting out their second. That gave them an audience that followed them to the next project. Is Eternum nearly as popular as it is without Once In a Lifetime (or in the case of KK/HS, Now & Then and The Interim Domain also apply)? I don't think so.

Even if someone sees lessons learned by an already successful developer, it doesn't mean they actually see it. Some of those lessons have to be learned the hard way for someone (especially a newer developer) to actually understand them.