Ren'Py Tutorial How-To have a dynamic story that react to player choices.

[NeonSelf]

c) A counter value.​

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Like for the semaphore, you're facing more than a possible outcome, but unlike the semaphore, you can't test each value individually. Well, you can, but it would make no sense, since more than one value would lead to the same result. Therefore, to deal with a counter value, you generally define different ranges, that all lead to the same outcome.​

Once you've those range, you test them increasingly. But there's a trap, the very first range should be the last one tested. Or more precisely, it should be seen as the default possibility ; what will happen if every all test are negative.​

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This looks like a bug: first option is True for any value girlLove above 5. So all other options with greater values will never be triggered. Even at girlLove = 100.

If statements should check from the highest value down to lowest for this to work correctly.

 

[anne O'nymous]

This looks like a bug:
[...]
If statements should check from the highest value down to lowest for this to work correctly.

Oh my fucking god !

Fixed, thanks.

 

[YaYa_UnTIN2]

Ok, i get it now.

Mm.. there are possibilities in that regard. Though i have a sex scene at the clinic that eventually will have the transformation, there is room to make a different path happen.
It may not be the outcome i prefer but for game design this is possible. Though i have to think of some arc that will serve for both situations.

I have to admit, that writing a game or VN is not that easy. I just see it every day when i render scenes. To my mind, a VN with slides should be able to tell the story even without dialog just by whats happening in the picture.

As for game, i think i am ok with giving limited choices as anything beyond may be more than i can deliver. It takes some knowledge to make a game happen that has many alternative paths for the player.
Though the games i played, even though there weren't harem for example, still made me always go after every girl in the game which i found kind of lame.

In a sense my game will offer on a basic level a choice of agreeing or denying. Either or which will not enable you to pursue a different path but of what kind of person you (the MC) will be and where you eventually end up.
Plus some money system that gives you additional options good or bad.

I think this is manageable and makes the VN more interesting. In the beginning i thought, ok kinetic is the way to go. It is, but i think it leads to a more static flow which can also pretty quick towards the end.
Not to mention that i started 3 times and tossed everything because it didn't made sense. Only for self pleasure perhaps.

So the 4th it is and it looks good in my view. Though i can bramble a lot since it subjective.
I really have to stress that transformation isn't something weird but slight enhancements to the body. It ain't the bimbo of the internet but i'll get it that some people fall in love with the MC and don't want to have him/her changed as this has a shrinking effect on the player.

I appreciate the input since this gets me thinking of how to progress the game overall.
One day, when it sees the light of day you may think, oh man what a garbage. But that's ok. At least i tried and if i like it, that is all it matters.
Can a VN actually be bad?

You said:

"To my mind, a VN with slides should be able to tell the story even without dialog just by what's happening in the picture".

-> "even without dialog"

I say:

People do not come up with the "meanings" in what is shown to them with scene pictures alone, unless it comes from their own life experiences (no imagination).

They usually have to have simple things explained much further, or else they come-up with "ideas" that do not exist within the "reality" of the game's plot, which leads to disappointment when a play outcome doesn't appear, and after Player choices which are not "guided" to an easy to understand scene "picture" of in-game reality.

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I think there must be dialogue most of the time, people are unimaginative and unthinking, so as a Game Dev you have to guide them sometimes to the "meanings" in your content.

VN's should not be filled with "memes" that can be misinterpreted by Players, all images should add to the plot's understanding, and help to tell the story.

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Examples:

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I could be wrong, but I know that bitch better have my money!

Good luck with your Game Dev.

 

[anne O'nymous]

They usually have to have simple things explained much further, or else they come-up with "ideas" that do not exist within the "reality" of the game's plot, which leads to disappointment when a play outcome doesn't appear, and after Player choices which are not "guided" to an easy to understand scene "picture" of in-game reality.

To what I'll answer Charlie Chaplin, Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy, Buster Keaton, and, more globally, the golden age of silent movies.
There were a text panel time to time, to help getting the general tone, and eventually catch up viewers that were lost, but that's all. The understanding was coming from the actors body language and expressions. Something that, of course, they needed to overact as a way to emphasis on the part that was important at that moment.
More recently, there's Wall-e, that starts by telling a long silent story that everyone got. And of course Up, where the most touching moment was the silent flashback telling Ellie and Carl's life.

Subtlety will not be universal, but there's still an universal set of body language and facial expressions. Something that viewers could perhaps not talk about out of the blue, but that they would still unconsciously understand ; at least in terms broad enough for them to get the general meaning. And this even when applied to cartoon characters or, even more difficult, robots.

It's in fact when you starts to mix dialogs with this visual language, that things starts to be more complicated. Because, while understanding the words, and understanding the visual language, people will effectively have more difficulties to understand the dichotomy they can form once put together.
It's here that, effectively, things starts to be effectively too subtle and can possibly rely on personal experience.
"I'm fine", she said while frowning. There's here a contradiction, she's giving two information, but one oppose the second. But if she was just shrugging her shoulders, people would have got it more easily ; she isn't really fine, but she go with it as it is.

I think there must be dialogue most of the time, people are unimaginative and unthinking, so as a Game Dev you have to guide them sometimes to the "meanings" in your content.

I'm not sure that insulting players intelligence is the way to go.
I'm more on the other side. This isn't a story for children, the public is expected to be adult and, by then, should be treated as it. If players don't get it and end lost, well, this game isn't for them, period. There's enough cheap written games for them to still have enough to fill their free time.

 

[YaYa_UnTIN2]

To what I'll answer Charlie Chaplin, Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy, Buster Keaton, and, more globally, the golden age of silent movies.
There were a text panel time to time, to help getting the general tone, and eventually catch up viewers that were lost, but that's all. The understanding was coming from the actors body language and expressions. Something that, of course, they needed to overact as a way to emphasis on the part that was important at that moment.
More recently, there's Wall-e, that starts by telling a long silent story that everyone got. And of course Up, where the most touching moment was the silent flashback telling Ellie and Carl's life.

Subtlety will not be universal, but there's still an universal set of body language and facial expressions. Something that viewers could perhaps not talk about out of the blue, but that they would still unconsciously understand ; at least in terms broad enough for them to get the general meaning. And this even when applied to cartoon characters or, even more difficult, robots.

It's in fact when you starts to mix dialogs with this visual language, that things starts to be more complicated. Because, while understanding the words, and understanding the visual language, people will effectively have more difficulties to understand the dichotomy they can form once put together.
It's here that, effectively, things starts to be effectively too subtle and can possibly rely on personal experience.
"I'm fine", she said while frowning. There's here a contradiction, she's giving two information, but one oppose the second. But if she was just shrugging her shoulders, people would have got it more easily ; she isn't really fine, but she go with it as it is.




I'm not sure that insulting players intelligence is the way to go.
I'm more on the other side. This isn't a story for children, the public is expected to be adult and, by then, should be treated as it. If players don't get it and end lost, well, this game isn't for them, period. There's enough cheap written games for them to still have enough to fill their free time.

Thanks for the reply, and some food for thought.

- "I'm not sure that insulting players intelligence is the way to go".

Was not my intention, but I cannot know how every person will process information given, that's on them, I can only be myself.

- "If players don't get it and end lost, well, this game isn't for them, period".

Yes, but don't Game Devs want a Player to gain some entertainment value for their time?

I'd try as a Dev, to convey to Players the importance and interest (push-nudge) path in reading plot guidelines (offered by Dev). Then just to leave it up to the Player to figure-out the meanings with only subjective styled pictures.

Q: Have you ever sat and watched the latest version of people, as they try to "understand" the subtleties of comedy held in classic media, what a horror show, and sad. Everything is a rehash and having no new concepts makes life boring and meaningless, (media consumption wise). I'd like some plotline "depth" for my gaming choices, not just tits and giggles.

Thanks for the Ren'Py coding info you offer for Devs, and of course personal opinions on topics like this.

 

[toolkitxx]

Thanks for the reply, and some food for thought.

- "I'm not sure that insulting players intelligence is the way to go".

Was not my intention, but I cannot know how every person will process information given, that's on them, I can only be myself.

- "If players don't get it and end lost, well, this game isn't for them, period".

Yes, but don't Game Devs want a Player to gain some entertainment value for their time?

I'd try as a Dev, to convey to Players the importance and interest (push-nudge) path in reading plot guidelines (offered by Dev). Then just to leave it up to the Player to figure-out the meanings with only subjective styled pictures.

Q: Have you ever sat and watched the latest version of people, as they try to "understand" the subtleties of comedy held in classic media, what a horror show, and sad. Everything is a rehash and having no new concepts makes life boring and meaningless, (media consumption wise). I'd like some plotline "depth" for my gaming choices, not just tits and giggles.

Thanks for the Ren'Py coding info you offer for Devs, and of course personal opinions on topics like this.

Imagination is trainable and is not anything spectacular as you make it out to be. Modern times have disabled the path to stimulate and train this a lot but it is not totally lost as you describe it. Reading is one particular skill that helps training imagination. As is getting told stories that are free-form and totally made up on the spot and include the child's ideas.

This is one of the problems with visual novels - many treat them more like movies with a bit of text instead of the other way around - as it should be. Books had illustrations for a long time which where meant to add some extra feel or help with something that would be hard to describe just with words - like a family crest etc. Things that have meaning but are not spoiling the story by being depicted in graphical form.

For as long as there have been books and stories there have been interpretations of them as well. The need for 'right' and 'wrong' is where people fail. Entertainment has so many different forms and many people will enjoy something that others find boring as death. Just because some think it should be one way doesnt make it right or smart to do it that way. Modern times allow for even more different products and ideas to be published than ever before - it's pretty much like a 2. Gutenberg era. It's the mix that matters more than getting it 'right' all the time.

 

[Night Hacker]

Imagination is trainable and is not anything spectacular as you make it out to be. Modern times have disabled the path to stimulate and train this a lot but it is not totally lost as you describe it. Reading is one particular skill that helps training imagination. As is getting told stories that are free-form and totally made up on the spot and include the child's ideas.

This is one of the problems with visual novels - many treat them more like movies with a bit of text instead of the other way around - as it should be. Books had illustrations for a long time which where meant to add some extra feel or help with something that would be hard to describe just with words - like a family crest etc. Things that have meaning but are not spoiling the story by being depicted in graphical form.

For as long as there have been books and stories there have been interpretations of them as well. The need for 'right' and 'wrong' is where people fail. Entertainment has so many different forms and many people will enjoy something that others find boring as death. Just because some think it should be one way doesnt make it right or smart to do it that way. Modern times allow for even more different products and ideas to be published than ever before - it's pretty much like a 2. Gutenberg era. It's the mix that matters more than getting it 'right' all the time.

Well said, though I honestly have a terrible imagination when it comes to making up stories, but you're probably right as I never read a lot of books. I loved reading, but get sleepy etc... when I do.

Visual novels remind me a lot of those "Adventure books" we had in the 1980s, where you could choose a path. You had to turn to different pages depending on your choice. I have one good one called "King's Quest", written before the video game which had really basic illustrations, mostly text.

I think a visual novel being like a movie where you choose the path is apt as well though. Many of the stories I have read in them have been really good that way. I think the VNs with a good story, rather than just focusing on sex are the best in my humble opinion, but there are those who hate that. I always get annoyed when people start wanting all sorts of things added to the story. In the past it was always considered rude to tell an author how to write THEIR story, and I still feel that way, but these days, manors seemed to have went out the window.

I watched some good videos, one with Stephen King where he described how he does part of his writing. He has a general idea where he wants the story to go, but he says that he doesn't know exactly how it will. He will think about a character in a situation, and given the personality of them, he writes how they might react, not knowing himself how it will go, which is an interesting way to do it.

Some ideas I read to spark the imagination were to say, take a photograph and make up a story about it, how it came to be, if there's someone in it, how did they get there, where are they going and the problems associated with that etc. I thought it was an interesting idea.

I am a programmer and I once wrote a story program where I had it pick characters and locations at random, then pick the problem, what was happening and then I would fill in the blanks. I may just go back and reprogram something like that again.

 

[YaYa_UnTIN2]

Imagination is trainable and is not anything spectacular as you make it out to be. Modern times have disabled the path to stimulate and train this a lot but it is not totally lost as you describe it. Reading is one particular skill that helps training imagination. As is getting told stories that are free-form and totally made up on the spot and include the child's ideas.

This is one of the problems with visual novels - many treat them more like movies with a bit of text instead of the other way around - as it should be. Books had illustrations for a long time which where meant to add some extra feel or help with something that would be hard to describe just with words - like a family crest etc. Things that have meaning but are not spoiling the story by being depicted in graphical form.

For as long as there have been books and stories there have been interpretations of them as well. The need for 'right' and 'wrong' is where people fail. Entertainment has so many different forms and many people will enjoy something that others find boring as death. Just because some think it should be one way doesnt make it right or smart to do it that way. Modern times allow for even more different products and ideas to be published than ever before - it's pretty much like a 2. Gutenberg era. It's the mix that matters more than getting it 'right' all the time.

Thanks for the reply,

I agree, about the "movie vs print media" consumer/Dev "butting heads" issues, but because there is a glut of modern information "overloaded stimuli" doesn't make it good.

- People should still be able to think, not just consume random trite Online and call it gospel, (but all humans have free will (choices to make) so its been said, so they can choose, to like or hate as they please) no issue with me there.

You be you silly-humans, I'll just watch the shit-show unfold.

- It would be nicer of them (people) to be honest enough with themselves, when they can't understand speech/thoughts unfamiliar to themselves, and not just bash the messenger. I'm guilty of this myself, but I try to at least.

Sometimes communication is a hard path to tread, and remembering that Game Devs are not Gods, not controlling the masses, I think we're only simple guides to entertain (hopefully), while revealing our stories and making a little coin, if desired.

* Your response has made me think from your point-of-view verses my own, conversation is key, thanks.

Have a good one.

 

[KaeruVN]

Some insightful things in here.

I'm not sure that insulting players intelligence is the way to go.
I'm more on the other side. This isn't a story for children, the public is expected to be adult and, by then, should be treated as it. If players don't get it and end lost, well, this game isn't for them, period. There's enough cheap written games for them to still have enough to fill their free time.

I really agree here. In my own game, I do plan on having dead ends or "game overs", because they are not only extremely obvious, but I don't think you have to spoon feed a player, it takes away from the fun of discovering things.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I really agree here. In my own game, I do plan on having dead ends or "game overs", because they are not only extremely obvious, but I don't think you have to spoon feed a player, it takes away from the fun of discovering things.

While I agree that they are some times unavoidable, I'm less fan of "game overs", and even less of dead ends. At least direct ones, whatever how obvious they can be.

Of course, there's the saves, but it seem that when it come to adult games, it looks like a majority is "at risk" when it come to dead ends, either because they save only once, at the end of the update, or cycle between a really small number of saves. And it's really frustrating to discover that you are in a dead end, while knowing that you'll have to restart everything because you don't have saves, or because you discover that all your saves are made after you started to follow its dead end path.
It's partly the fault of the player, but as creator a part of your responsibility is to anticipate their worse behavior and, if possible, to limits their consequences.


So, personally I would advice for a restricted content, more than for a dead end, or for a "less power" approach. Something that would looks like what is done in Karlsson's Gambit.
Due to its story, the game have a rank system for the male MC. Either he's a pure slave, or a successful member of the project. Starting then, the content, scenes and also freedom that the player will experience depend of that rank.
For a game with a more traditional story, it can be implemented through a purely virtual salary. If the player do not do too stupid things, the MC get regular promotion at his job, but if he mess too often, instead of a dead end or a game over, he just don't get that promotion.

And it doesn't matters if we never see the MC at his job, it even don't need to effectively imply a money system. It can perfectly be something like (for an incest story):

label whatever:
    if jobrank > 2:  # The MC got a promotion
        MC "Tomorrow it's my sister's birthday, I'll take her to a fancy restaurant, she'll like it. And, in Saturday I'll take mom to the spa, she need to relax a bit."
    else:   # The MC didn't get the promotion due to player's choice.
        MC "Fuck... Tomorrow it's my sister's birthday, I would love to take her to a fancy restaurant. But if I do this, I'll not have enough money to take mom to the spa, and she deserve to relax."
        menu:
            "Which one I'll pick ?"
            "I'll take sis to a fancy restaurant, it's her birthday after all.":
                [...]
            "Mom really need to relax, she's way too tense. Sis will have other birthday.":
                [...]

It need a bit more coding, but offer more flexibility to the game. The player is still penalized for his really bad choices, but he can continue to play. And, continuing to play is an important factor when the game is story driven ; the player can deal with less lewd content, as long as he isn't deprived of the story and its conclusion.
It seem to me that it's a balanced compromised that permit to satisfy both the creator and players. This without frustrating the creator, he stay in control of the story and the players do not escape to their responsibility, nor frustration the player, that will still have the possibility to know the rest of the story.

 

[KaeruVN]

It's partly the fault of the player, but as creator a part of your responsibility is to anticipate their worse behavior and, if possible, to limits their consequences.

That's a very good point and something I didn't really think about before. Maybe I'll have to make it more clear in the tutorial that you have to be careful with the choices you make.

So, personally I would advice for a restricted content, more than for a dead end, or for a "less power" approach. Something that would looks like what is done in Karlsson's Gambit.

I'll definitely check that game out to see how that dev did it.
But for my game I think I might have to do restricted content/dead ends in order to keep it realistic for the player.
My game uses a player-based input system where you can respond to questions in any way you want. You can be a huge asshole, flirtatious or a complete pervert in any situation and lock/unlock parts of the game this way. It's not added in the current build yet, but I am planning on adding things that have to be a dead end to make sense from a realistic perspective.

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I'll have to really look into other games and see how other devs do it, because I do hit walls with this system and I want to give people as much flexibility as I can.

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