I dislike a game with too much internal monolgue

[ChaosOpen]

I have played quite a few games of different genres and I could never figure out exactly why I liked some protoganist but didn't like the others. However, it just hit me as I was playing The Melody of Grisaia, the amount of internal monologue. Having to read a paragraph or two of internal monologue about what the character said, what you said, why you should, why you shouldn't, it just makes the MC sound really indecisive. I think they do it to add "fluff" to a game and drag out the play time but it seems to just turn a good game into a bad one. There is almost no monologue in Grisaia, what you need to know is said through dialogue and when he does talk to himself it's mostly just to explain what the character sees in the environment or what he is currently doing.

I suppose you could argue that it helps you get into the mind of the character but lets be honest, VNs make B-movies look like Shakespeare, and I've yet to see a VN pull off internal monologue well. Plus, the MC is supposed to be a self-insert, so why do we even need to learn more about his personality?

But what do you guys think? Do you think it's good to read a 10 minute diatribe about the pros and cons of talking about the weather or should the MC be used as a catalyst to advance the plot rather than trying to also serve as an

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?

 

[kytee]

Yeah, I haven't seen it done well either. The biggest problem I have with it is when developers use it as a tool to spout exposition. It's just an extremely lazy storytelling device to explain to us what the MC knows, rather than showing us that he knows something.

There are instances where I think it's acceptable however. These are when the player is about to make a major choice affecting the game. Some people might not pick up on the hints you give them from dialogue and visuals, so sometimes you gotta spell it out for them. Ie this is the ntr route vs non ntr can have internal dialogue of "She's already unhappy with me, I should be careful what I do next".

 

[Deleted member 229118]

Too much dialogue is bad internal or external.

The problem with internal monolgue is that it give the main charater opions.
The main charater shoud never have opinions.
I the player have the opinions.

That said it can be useful if done sparingly.
Stuff like: I shoud check out her safety deposite next thrusday.
Is a not so subtle hint on where the next trigger is.

Stuff like: Man i love her boobs.
Shut up dev, i dont care about your boob fetish.

I find that the best games keep dialogue focus on the here and now.
And the worst have the charater go on and on on how he feels, what he did, yadadadadada.

A few sentence of plans, idea's, feelings, etc, are perfect fine.
A few dozen sentence to say you feel sad is unistall.

 

[Volta]

The MC doesn't have to be a self insert, in fact they are far better IMO when they are characters in their own right. I do agree with excessive internal monologues being pretty rubbish for those typical self insert characters, i find that the writer often doesn't seem to be able to make the story run properly without it and mainly functions to explain choice outcomes before choices are made or tell the player what to do next, often in explicit detail which removes any sort of "work" that has to be done to work out the best thing to do next, sort of defeating the game aspect too.

However when the MC is a character in their own right then some internal monologue is good, just not too much, it's the old "show don't tell" thing, use scenes to build a characters emotional state rather than just dropping a text block, however when done right a good bit of internal monologue can give us insight into a character, especially a more reserved one, that we wouldn't otherwise get and works nicely with an MC that we are more "ridding along with" rather than self inserting as.

Internal monologues are a tool to tell a story, just like any other tool you need to know when to use it and when not to, the tool ins't bad it's the way it's used that is the problem.

 

[ChaosOpen]

The MC doesn't have to be a self insert, in fact they are far better IMO when they are characters in their own right. I do agree with excessive internal monologues being pretty rubbish for those typical self insert characters, i find that the writer often doesn't seem to be able to make the story run properly without it and mainly functions to explain choice outcomes before choices are made or tell the player what to do next, often in explicit detail which removes any sort of "work" that has to be done to work out the best thing to do next, sort of defeating the game aspect too.

However when the MC is a character in their own right then some internal monologue is good, just not too much, it's the old "show don't tell" thing, use scenes to build a characters emotional state rather than just dropping a text block, however when done right a good bit of internal monologue can give us insight into a character, especially a more reserved one, that we wouldn't otherwise get and works nicely with an MC that we are more "ridding along with" rather than self inserting as.

Internal monologues are a tool to tell a story, just like any other tool you need to know when to use it and when not to, the tool ins't bad it's the way it's used that is the problem.

I find self inserting as a completely different character to be the most interesting, pretending to be someone else for a series is quite interesting. For this reason I've never used my own name or recreated my appearance in any game when I was asked. And why would I? I'm a terribly boring person. I want to pretend to be someone interesting and who slays dragons and girls in equal measure.

While I agree that internal monologue can be used for good, to my knowledge, I haven't ever seen it used well. So, it's probably best if they just gave it up and accepted that this is a skill they won't ever master. Kind of like how they stopped trying to world-build naturally in a fantasy setting with native characters and came up with Isekai, where it sounds far less awkward for the character to ask questions about subjects that would seem like common sense to a native.

If they could learn to explain through natural character dialogue rather than internal exposition then they may just be able to catch up to Harry Potter.

 

[Fliptoynk]

Well... Wouldn't want the mc hump a talker either
Tramp: oh yeah (huffs) hey i havent caught yer name-
Mc: (huffs) bundy
Tramp: vent seen you'ere bfore (huffs) dun expect much visstors here (huffs) nuthin much t'see but sand n desert so wus yer business here (huffs) I used to visst other towns during
Mc: (huffs) forreaaaal?!?

 

[kytee]

Well... Wouldn't want the mc hump a talker either
Tramp: oh yeah (huffs) hey i havent caught yer name-
Mc: (huffs) bundy
Tramp: vent seen you'ere bfore (huffs) dun expect much visstors here (huffs) nuthin much t'see but sand n desert so wus yer bussiness here (huffs) I used to visst other towns during
Mc: (huffs) forreaaaal?!?

Boring talk during sex is a no no. Dirty talk during sex is a fuck yeah.

Imagine this sex scene:
Girl: *moan*
Guy: *grunt*
Girl: *loud moan*
Guy: *loud grunt*
Girl: I'm cumming!
Guy: *releases*

It's boring as hell. Now add in dirty talk:

Girl: Fuck! You love fucking this tight fucking pussy don't you! Can you feel my pussy lips glide along the shaft of your cock? Look at all the juices flowing out of my pussy. That's all from you baby. I can't get enough of you. Everyday when you're at work, I masturbate thinking about how it feels to get pounded by you. When my friends are over, I think about you, pulling me into our bedroom and fucking me so hard, they wouldn't have to guess what we were doing. You like that don't you, you dirty fucking pervert?
Girl: It feels like you're about to cum. Don't pull out, I want your load deep inside my tight little cunt. Come on, give it to me. Deposit your load deep in your slutty whore's tight little cunt. Do it, give it to me!

But yeah, you get the idea. Most games don't have nearly enough dirty talk and that makes the sex scenes pretty bland imo.

 

[SeventhVixen]

I have a lot of fun writing the dirty talk. But is complicated as every girl should behave different so has its work.

About internal monologuing, I try to have it very constrained to no way actions like "I should not give this item to this character", "I forget to buy the flowers before going there", or just very shorts snippets while talking. Sometimes while talking, is just best an Offended face with a "..." than a thought of "I'm offended, such dipshit!".

Internal exposition is a no go; You can have lore in a menu, or you may have that exposition ligthy hinted (not shoved) along many conversations, getting the player to know things bit by bit... if the reader wants to know, he'll know.

 

[HopesGaming]

I guess my game would be among the top hated with what is said in this thread. Tons of inner diagloue and a Mc that has a background, personality and own feelings and opinions.
I am a heavy on the "show don't tell" but as my game is purely diagloue and no narrative it means that you have to convey some descriptions on the situation with inner diagloue (when visual alone won't cut it)

While I agree that internal monologue can be used for good, to my knowledge, I haven't ever seen it used well. So, it's probably best if they just gave it up and accepted that this is a skill they won't ever master.

No matter what your profession, hobby or goals is- your quote right there is destructive to the growth of any marked. The idea that you should stop trying because your not good enough today is just foolish to be frank.

As a dev I will always focus on my personal growth. Even if it means that my product is sub par due to lack of skills. But rather sub par today then sub par for life due to fear of failure.

 

[Fliptoynk]

That could work too. Anyways, in every novel it's really unavoidable that it has long monologues and it's not actually the problem... it's the bad writing that makes us yawn.... Either too many unnecessary fillers and/or details like:

As I lick her bushy rose beefy folds, my nose tingled at the scent of strong pungent aroma and my tongue curls at the saline bitter taste and an alkaline goo starts to ooze out and i came to realize that I'm giving my lovely wife a sloppy seconds. Damn.... I've been ntr'ed.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Internal exposition is a no go; You can have lore in a menu, or you may have that exposition ligthy hinted (not shoved) along many conversations, getting the player to know things bit by bit... if the reader wants to know, he'll know.

Agree.

Many games rely on a sidekick, whatever it's a fairy, the good (generally black) friend, a succubus, or something else. And still most of them goes for the internal exposition, while they can use them for a short discussion that would expose a little more the personalty of the character.
To keep the example you used, instead of an "I'm offended, such dipshit!" thought, they can go for one of the following :

• If the sidekick speak in the head, (s)he can be the one that will say it, "Man, that's some offending shift !".
• If the sidekick is with the MC during the action, he can be the one that react, "Hey ! Don't offend my friend".
• In both case they can talk about it once the scene is finished, having a short dialog about how well the MC reacted while offended, or about how naive he was to not feel offended ; it all depend of the MC.
• And if the sidekick isn't present, the discussion can take place later, when the MC will talk about his progress.

Finally, there's no need for a sidekick. I remember saying this once, the MC can have a pet and be the kind of people who speak his mind to reflect more easily on things. There's also anonymous forums all over the web, or barman, for the complicated situations.

 

[ChaosOpen]

I guess my game would be among the top hated with what is said in this thread. Tons of inner diagloue and a Mc that has a background, personality and own feelings and opinions.
I am a heavy on the "show don't tell" but as my game is purely diagloue and no narrative it means that you have to convey some descriptions on the situation with inner diagloue (when visual alone won't cut it)



No matter what your profession, hobby or goals is- your quote right there is destructive to the growth of any marked. The idea that you should stop trying because your not good enough today is just foolish to be frank.

As a dev I will always focus on my personal growth. Even if it means that my product is sub par due to lack of skills. But rather sub par today then sub par for life due to fear of failure.

Well, 90% of visual novel MC's are self insert, so there shouldn't be a reason to expand upon how a character does or doesn't feel about a certain situation. For example, rather than telling me that a character feels happy, sad, uncomfortable, or shocked, wouldn't it be better to simply make me feel that rather than telling me "X said Y, this made you angry."

 

[ChaosOpen]

I guess my game would be among the top hated with what is said in this thread. Tons of inner diagloue and a Mc that has a background, personality and own feelings and opinions.
I am a heavy on the "show don't tell" but as my game is purely diagloue and no narrative it means that you have to convey some descriptions on the situation with inner diagloue (when visual alone won't cut it)



No matter what your profession, hobby or goals is- your quote right there is destructive to the growth of any marked. The idea that you should stop trying because your not good enough today is just foolish to be frank.

As a dev I will always focus on my personal growth. Even if it means that my product is sub par due to lack of skills. But rather sub par today then sub par for life due to fear of failure.

Well, is it about his opinions about what is going on or do you spend several minutes informing us that a character who we can clearly see on the screen is attractive. It makes me go: "yeah, I can see her right there, I am very aware she is attractive, no need to expand upon it, just get on with the story."

 

[HopesGaming]

Well, 90% of visual novel MC's are self insert, so there shouldn't be a reason to expand upon how a character does or doesn't feel about a certain situation. For example, rather than telling me that a character feels happy, sad, uncomfortable, or shocked, wouldn't it be better to simply make me feel that rather than telling me "X said Y, this made you angry."

I am not quite sure what you mean with your first statement. But all games are different and can't be lumped in together. Especially writing styles.

But yes, as mentioned I am very much in the group of "show don't tell" and actually the reasons why my game is 99% dialogue without any narration as narration is where the description part happens. anne O'nymous does an amazing job of explaining the small nuances I tend to add to my game regarding lighting and small poses to show rather than tell. (Yes, I read everything you write even when I can't always reply, heh!)

Think you are confusing a bit about what I am trying to say.
Too much inner dialogue is awful and not everything needs to be talked about. That is where I can agree.
But inner dialogues by itself is not a bad thing if done correctly. I use it a lot but it is not merely used to tell the audience how a character feels or is doing but rather it is a way to make the audience understand what the mc is feeling. How does he think of all this that is going on.

So far my game hasn't received any complaints about inner dialogue and my game is only liked by the story/characters so far (no sex in the game).

While I agree that internal monologue can be used for good, to my knowledge, I haven't ever seen it used well. So, it's probably best if they just gave it up and accepted that this is a skill they won't ever master.

This was what I was replying towards.

 

[kytee]

I am not quite sure what you mean with your first statement. But all games are different and can't be lumped in together. Especially writing styles.

But yes, as mentioned I am very much in the group of "show don't tell" and actually the reasons why my game is 99% dialogue without any narration as narration is where the description part happens. anne O'nymous does an amazing job of explaining the small nuances I tend to add to my game regarding lighting and small poses to show rather than tell. (Yes, I read everything you write even when I can't always reply, heh!)

Think you are confusing a bit about what I am trying to say.
Too much inner dialogue is awful and not everything needs to be talked about. That is where I can agree.
But inner dialogues by itself is not a bad thing if done correctly. I use it a lot but it is not merely used to tell the audience how a character feels or is doing but rather it is a way to make the audience understand what the mc is feeling. How does he think of all this that is going on.

So far my game hasn't received any complaints about inner dialogue and my game is only liked by the story/characters so far (no sex in the game).



This was what I was replying towards.

I've heard amazing things about your game, but I've yet to try it. Maybe it's the one to change my mind on the subject at hand.

 

[anne O'nymous]

anne O'nymous does an amazing job of explaining the small nuances I tend to add to my game regarding lighting and small poses to show rather than tell. (Yes, I read everything you write even when I can't always reply, heh!)

Well, I don't know what to say... I just expressed my thoughts about your CGs, they should have inspired me. It's a change, usually they tend to depress me because I compare them to what I can do myself

But inner dialogues by itself is not a bad thing if done correctly. I use it a lot but it is not merely used to tell the audience how a character feels or is doing but rather it is a way to make the audience understand what the mc is feeling. How does he think of all this that is going on.

As example, there's the start of your quest "My Name is Luna". And it's a really good example since, if I remember correctly, there's two form of inner dialog. The one when the MC is complaining because Wilfred have been a snitch (OMG !) texting Luna to come. It's pure dialog, a really short one ; or was this one only in my mind ?
And there's the one where the MC remember how to act with an angry woman. It's an internal thought, but instead of going with a static image while the player think about this, you made it a full scene with it's own CG ; the MC was effectively remembering something.

This opposed to the average "inner thoughts" addressed in this thread, that can go from, "I slept well", to "OMG, his she smiling ? Does this mean that she like me, perhaps even love me ? I should ask her out... Should I really do this ? Isn't it still too early for this move ?".
The first one should be obvious, and appear only if at the opposite the MC didn't slept well. And the second one should be let to the player ;it should be him who question the attitude of the girl, it help to make him involved in the story.
And I don't even talk about those who use it as pure narration, starting by an 1 hour long internal monologue about all the past of the MC, passing by "I'm walking to works", and obviously ending by "I bang her good".

So far my game hasn't received any complaints about inner dialogue and my game is only liked by the story/characters so far (no sex in the game).

I can't tell for others, but I never felt that there's "tons of inner dialogue", like you said earlier.
We are Sapiens, therefore we think, and for some overthink. A game without a single inner dialogue would feel as weird as one with all the narration done by using them. And you handle them correctly, which make them unnoticed, because they fall in the right place.

 

[ChaosOpen]

I am not quite sure what you mean with your first statement. But all games are different and can't be lumped in together. Especially writing styles.

But yes, as mentioned I am very much in the group of "show don't tell" and actually the reasons why my game is 99% dialogue without any narration as narration is where the description part happens. anne O'nymous does an amazing job of explaining the small nuances I tend to add to my game regarding lighting and small poses to show rather than tell. (Yes, I read everything you write even when I can't always reply, heh!)

Think you are confusing a bit about what I am trying to say.
Too much inner dialogue is awful and not everything needs to be talked about. That is where I can agree.
But inner dialogues by itself is not a bad thing if done correctly. I use it a lot but it is not merely used to tell the audience how a character feels or is doing but rather it is a way to make the audience understand what the mc is feeling. How does he think of all this that is going on.

So far my game hasn't received any complaints about inner dialogue and my game is only liked by the story/characters so far (no sex in the game).

This was what I was replying towards.

Yeah, but notice I said "too much," it isn't that I think there should be no internal monologue. Some things are important to know and either are best or can only be explained through such a viewpoint. So, sometimes it is necessary. However, when you're treating the audience like an idiot by explaining things they figured out hours ago, or simply informing the audience what the MC is about to do next(which he then does verbatim) then it's just unnecessary at best, condescending at worst.

If you managed to pull it off in your game then good job, keep up the good word, maybe even write a how-to for other developers to help them out. That being said, you're definitively the exception rather than the rule.

 

[anne O'nymous]

I've heard amazing things about your game, but I've yet to try it. Maybe it's the one to change my mind on the subject at hand.

Don't know if it will change your mind on this subject, but it will surely change your mind on at least one subject, whatever which one. Simply because his game is a slap we all took.

From the character building to the CG, passing by the pace of the game and its mechanism, The DeLuca Family put adult gaming on another planet. HopesGaming wasn't the first to do all what he did, but he was the first to do all of them in the same time ; and, pleasing surprise, there's now more and more games following this path.
As example, he already introduced 21 characters, (list just to be corrected if needed, The MC, 3 future capo, 2 capo, 1 soldato (poor one), 2 serpents, 6 main characters, 1 old friends, 4 others family members... and I feel like there's one missing, but I can't remember him ). And all of them are clearly and totally unique, in all possible ways. They don't look the same, obviously (except Cordia's daughters who've something of their mother), but they also don't "move" in the same way, you feel it in the pose they have in the CG. They also don't act, not even talk in the same way ; after having past some times with them, you feel a subtle difference in their dialog lines.