I have an idea about abandoned projects and replacement patreon sites. Is anyone interested?

[yueziyue]

As we can see, many projects were abandoned midway, some of which have a large number of fans, and the pre-development is very good, but due to the personal reasons of the developers, these projects cannot be continued.
Now I have an idea to develop a brand new website so that developers who have abandoned their projects can sell the resources of the project to those who are willing to continue development.
At the same time, this website can be used as a substitute for patreon, but it adopts a different idea from patreon in the operating mechanism to encourage and urge developers to continue development.
Is anyone interested in this idea? If so, you can contact me.

 

[Miscerte23]

I second this idea. There are so many games on this site both with and without the abandoned tag, that show so much promise and potential, which was never realized. My fan sigs are for one such game. In spite of all this however, one problem I always had with the idea of new devs taking over an abandoned project is, what's gonna happen to the art? It would create a very strange disconnect in the player's mind to see a character drawn in one art style, and then, half an hour later, in a completely different art style, knowing full well that it's still the same character. Leaving this tiny issue aside however, once again, I think you're onto something good here.

 

[Marcibx]

I appreciate the initiative, but I see so many problems with this:
1. People might hesitate to give their payment to shady websites (as you want to be a patreon alternative)
2. People might hesitate to back something that has been taken over by new people, thus having no proof of quality regarding what to expect from now on
3. Developers might hesitate to sell their projects even if they abandon it as they might want return to it
4. If it gets abandoned because the devs did not bother continuing, there is a chance (with new devs) that they won't bother selling it either.
5. If it gets abandoned because the devs have no idea what to do with it and you have one, it might be better to just offer help
6. If the project is already very big, the devs might ask for a rather high amount what only in very rare cases would others be willing to pay (nobody likes to pay a lot for something that was thrown out)
7. If the project is still in early stages, then it might make more sense to create your own version of it rather than taking over the existing - you won't be able to 100% match it anyway.

All that said, there would be probably some cases where this would actually be helpful, but that would be so rare that it would not make sense to create a website for that.
It would be better to just have a thread here (maybe under recruitments) where devs could offer their projects or request to take over abandoned projects (tagging the original creator). Lets see how that goes and then we can talk.

 

[Winterfire]

Considering that 99% of the projects use bought asset, which cannot be resold or redistributed, that would never work.

 

[Cyberpink-dev]

I'm a developer myself and not too interested in such idea. I hope you don't mind me explaining why though as other developers might be thinking the same way.

Games getting finished is almost always a positive thing. There are always costs to finishing the games though. These things need to be considered:

• Original codebase / assets / project might be a massive mess. Even for a clean project with original creators on board, it takes months to get the new developers up to speed on how everything works. Alone with no explanation why things are the way they are things could easily take many months longer. In case of a smaller project, the time investment is smaller, but less is also gained.
• Original idea might just be too massive. It wouldn't be feasible to get it done. Cutting down on features might anger fans. Fire from both sides.
• Everyone has their own ideas. I haven't met a developer who doesn't have their own ideas that they'd want to make. They usually work on something existing because it's guaranteed pay.
• Legal gray area. There is a risk, that the new developer puts a lot of work into the project and it starts making some serious money. Then suddenly the original developer is interested again and wants his 50% cut for making the initial stuff of the project.

These problems could be mitigated somewhat and of course these depend on specific circumstances. Things that could be done:

• Only taking few high value items from the project and starting over. Usually art is the thing that takes the longest to make. Cutting down on this time by using existing art assets from a failed project. Or using some really clever AI or animation system code. All the rest could be rebuilt, possibly better.
• Legal licensing issues could be handled by some 3rd party. Similar to how asset stores work. Original creator agrees that the assets could be used in some other projects while they either get a predefined cut or flat payment.

 

[Winterfire]

I'm a developer myself and not too interested in such idea. I hope you don't mind me explaining why though as other developers might be thinking the same way.

Games getting finished is almost always a positive thing. There are always costs to finishing the games though. These things need to be considered:

• Original codebase / assets / project might be a massive mess. Even for a clean project with original creators on board, it takes months to get the new developers up to speed on how everything works. Alone with no explanation why things are the way they are things could easily take many months longer. In case of a smaller project, the time investment is smaller, but less is also gained.
• Original idea might just be too massive. It wouldn't be feasible to get it done. Cutting down on features might anger fans. Fire from both sides.
• Everyone has their own ideas. I haven't met a developer who doesn't have their own ideas that they'd want to make. They usually work on something existing because it's guaranteed pay.
• Legal gray area. There is a risk, that the new developer puts a lot of work into the project and it starts making some serious money. Then suddenly the original developer is interested again and wants his 50% cut for making the initial stuff of the project.

These problems could be mitigated somewhat and of course these depend on specific circumstances. Things that could be done:

• Only taking few high value items from the project and starting over. Usually art is the thing that takes the longest to make. Cutting down on this time by using existing art assets from a failed project. Or using some really clever AI or animation system code. All the rest could be rebuilt, possibly better.
• Legal licensing issues could be handled by some 3rd party. Similar to how asset stores work. Original creator agrees that the assets could be used in some other projects while they either get a predefined cut or flat payment.

The license is also not transferable, it is something you agree upon buying the assets.

 

[Cyberpink-dev]

The license is also not transferable, it is something you agree upon buying the assets.

Yeah I mean more when someone actually made their own models. For example the 3D models I made for my own game, I can license these out for people to use in other games. Of course I cannot license out some building assets which I already bought from Unity Asset Store.

 

[Winterfire]

Yeah I mean more when someone actually made their own models. For example the 3D models I made for my own game, I can license these out for people to use in other games. Of course I cannot license out some building assets which I already bought from Unity Asset Store.

Yeah that wouldn't be an issue, however, the great majority uses purchased assets. You can probably count on a single hand the amount of games that were made entirely from scratch, without counting text based ofc.

 

[ririmudev]

The idea of rescuing orphaned games sounds good - especially if there's a way to get the source into a repo. Even a big bunch of compiled mumbo-jumbo can be dealt with one step at a time if there's enough interest.

The monetization part though - seems like it could be a stumbling block.

It would be better to just have a thread here (maybe under recruitments) where devs could offer their projects or request to take over abandoned projects (tagging the original creator). Lets see how that goes and then we can talk.

Something like this sounds promising as well.

 

[Bip]

Yeah that wouldn't be an issue, however, the great majority uses purchased assets. You can probably count on a single hand the amount of games that were made entirely from scratch, without counting text based ofc.

I don't think this is about selling the assets, but more about selling the "recipes".
Something like:
Girlfriend: Use this asset, this texture, this morph @45%, this other morph @32%...

That would be totally legal.


But yeah, I don't see a big market. Marcibx and Cyberpink-dev have solid arguments here.

 

[Marcibx]

I don't think this is about selling the assets, but more about selling the "recipes".
Something like:
Girlfriend: Use this asset, this texture, this morph @45%, this other morph @32%...

That would be totally legal.

I am pretty sure the original poster meant to take over everything - core, screenplay, even notes about the project.
To only get the "recipe" it would make more sense to just buy stuff from artists. The quality of deviantart stuff is better than the best in any game (as they only make one render instead of one hundred).

 

[Bip]

Marcibx
OK with you, but I was replying to Winterfire who was concerned about the legality of purchasing the assets
The recipes, the notes, the code, the renders etc., is only a matter of an intellectual property. So it should not be a legal problem to transfert it.

 

[yueziyue]

I appreciate the initiative, but I see so many problems with this:
1. People might hesitate to give their payment to shady websites (as you want to be a patreon alternative)
2. People might hesitate to back something that has been taken over by new people, thus having no proof of quality regarding what to expect from now on
3. Developers might hesitate to sell their projects even if they abandon it as they might want return to it
4. If it gets abandoned because the devs did not bother continuing, there is a chance (with new devs) that they won't bother selling it either.
5. If it gets abandoned because the devs have no idea what to do with it and you have one, it might be better to just offer help
6. If the project is already very big, the devs might ask for a rather high amount what only in very rare cases would others be willing to pay (nobody likes to pay a lot for something that was thrown out)
7. If the project is still in early stages, then it might make more sense to create your own version of it rather than taking over the existing - you won't be able to 100% match it anyway.

All that said, there would be probably some cases where this would actually be helpful, but that would be so rare that it would not make sense to create a website for that.
It would be better to just have a thread here (maybe under recruitments) where devs could offer their projects or request to take over abandoned projects (tagging the original creator). Lets see how that goes and then we can talk.

1: First of all, my idea is to make a website that displays sales information. The actual transaction will not be conducted on the website, but through other more credible online trading websites.

2: This is not a problem we need to consider. In fact, no developer can prove that the quality of his project is guaranteed. This website only needs to consider continuing the development of the project.

3.4.5.6: We don't need to consider those developers who don't want to sell their projects, we only need to consider those developers who want to sell their projects.
7: The website will not only support the overall sale of the project, but also the sale of the project's artistic resources, the sale of scripts, and so on.

In fact, the purpose of creating this website originally originated from my dissatisfaction with the patreon system, because a large number of developers cheated their supporters' money through patreon, but did not continue the real development activities. They often created a project and produced Very good character image, very tempting preliminary script, after attracting a large number of supporters to pay, it began to postpone the update indefinitely.
My initial idea was to create a website to solve this problem and prevent the money paid by the supporter from being obtained by the scam developer without any effect.
The item sale information is only an additional (extended) function.


English is not my native language, I used Google Translate

 

[Marcibx]

1: First of all, my idea is to make a website that displays sales information. The actual transaction will not be conducted on the website, but through other more credible online trading websites.

2: This is not a problem we need to consider. In fact, no developer can prove that the quality of his project is guaranteed. This website only needs to consider continuing the development of the project.

3.4.5.6: We don't need to consider those developers who don't want to sell their projects, we only need to consider those developers who want to sell their projects.
7: The website will not only support the overall sale of the project, but also the sale of the project's artistic resources, the sale of scripts, and so on.

In fact, the purpose of creating this website originally originated from my dissatisfaction with the patreon system, because a large number of developers cheated their supporters' money through patreon, but did not continue the real development activities. They often created a project and produced Very good character image, very tempting preliminary script, after attracting a large number of supporters to pay, it began to postpone the update indefinitely.
My initial idea was to create a website to solve this problem and prevent the money paid by the supporter from being obtained by the scam developer without any effect.
The item sale information is only an additional (extended) function.


English is not my native language, I used Google Translate

1. OK, but then it is not a Patreon alternative as the idea was initially proposed, rather a social network where you can discuss the sales, but you have to go somewhere else to do the transaction. (I don't see why couldn't you do that discussion on f95)
2. I did not talk about guarantee, but proof - the existing version is somewhat of a proof of what the devs can do, but when somebody takes it over people cannot know if the quality stays the same
3-6. yes, I agree, you don't have to consider those developers, I just pointed out the reasons why only a tiny fraction of devs would actually be interested
7. There are already stores to sell your artistic resources, so that is out. We are left with code and script, which is too niche. A direct message or a thread here would be better to discuss these as these would be complex sales, not just putting up the script of your game for $25. You need to discuss what's in it, what to pay attention when continuing writing the program...

The scam projects are a completely different business and I don't see how this solves that problem - people can just take over a project and say they will develop it and then not do it.

Just create a poll to see how many devs would sign up and sell on such a platform and how many are interested in buying abandoned games. My prediction is that the results will be too low, but I might be wrong and then you will know for sure which one it is.

 

[yueziyue]

1. OK, but then it is not a Patreon alternative as the idea was initially proposed, rather a social network where you can discuss the sales, but you have to go somewhere else to do the transaction. (I don't see why couldn't you do that discussion on f95)
2. I did not talk about guarantee, but proof - the existing version is somewhat of a proof of what the devs can do, but when somebody takes it over people cannot know if the quality stays the same
3-6. yes, I agree, you don't have to consider those developers, I just pointed out the reasons why only a tiny fraction of devs would actually be interested
7. There are already stores to sell your artistic resources, so that is out. We are left with code and script, which is too niche. A direct message or a thread here would be better to discuss these as these would be complex sales, not just putting up the script of your game for $25. You need to discuss what's in it, what to pay attention when continuing writing the program...

The scam projects are a completely different business and I don't see how this solves that problem - people can just take over a project and say they will develop it and then not do it.

Just create a poll to see how many devs would sign up and sell on such a platform and how many are interested in buying abandoned games. My prediction is that the results will be too low, but I might be wrong and then you will know for sure which one it is.

Let me explain:
1: There are few discussions on F95, and the F95 system is not conducive to the price determination of both parties. Unless it develops a function to display the seller's bid price and the buyer's bid, similar to an auction system?

2: I misunderstood what you mean. My idea is that when other developers take over a project, the quality of the project is determined by the receiver. This is a problem that the developer who takes over needs to consider, not the user or the sale The issue that the person needs to consider. All the website needs to do is to indicate "Sold" on the item.

3-6: I agree with you, but there are still some people who need to use this function.

7: You may be right.

In short: the function of selling and buying items is a very small part of the website. We can call it ancillary functions.

Preventing developers from defrauding supporters' money is the main purpose. This part is a function other than "sell items".
I have an idea, but there are still some doubts on legal issues.
And, I haven't talked about this "prevention of fraud" function.

 

[Tompte]

In case anyone is still wondering why Patreon has never been a good model for game development, it's because hobbyists, who've never even finished a game, are being payed up front on a promise they can't keep due to their vast inexperience in actual game development. In fact, they are incentivised to prolong development indefinitely. As long as people are pitching in, why rush it? Anyone can throw something together in Unity that looks like a game. A very few knows how to finish one. Sorry for the rant but I've never been able to understand why so many patrons would give their money for unfinished tech demos when 98% of those projects never materialize into anything real.

I agree that there may not be much worth selling when picking through abandoned projects. Unfinished code is never worth paying for and if I'm buying art I'd rather commission the artist or just buy whatever asset they bought. The way I think about it, would you want to buy a chair made by a grade school wood shop student or would you rather buy one made by a carpenter?

 

[Marcibx]

In case anyone is still wondering why Patreon has never been a good model for game development, it's because hobbyists, who've never even finished a game, are being payed up front on a promise they can't keep due to their vast inexperience in actual game development. In fact, they are incentivised to prolong development indefinitely. As long as people are pitching in, why rush it? Anyone can throw something together in Unity that looks like a game. A very few knows how to finish one. Sorry for the rant but I've never been able to understand why so many patrons would give their money for unfinished tech demos when 98% of those projects never materialize into anything real.

I agree that there may not be much worth selling when picking through abandoned projects. Unfinished code is never worth paying for and if I'm buying art I'd rather commission the artist or just buy whatever asset they bought. The way I think about it, would you want to buy a chair made by a grade school wood shop student or would you rather buy one made by a carpenter?

I get what you mean, however, there is a rather big flaw in your argument, that is, these people never promised to finish the game, just to keep working on it. And that is actually rather clear to all parties - supporters don't necessarily want it to get finished as it would mean the end of it. They just want more from it.

Imagine a successful tv series. People don't want the creators to keep creating new series. They want them to continue the one they like and that is the Patreon model. Nobody was mad at How I Met Your Mother for not telling the mother's identity at the end of season one. They just enjoyed watching the episodes and wanted more from them (until they don't and it is time to actually finish it).

Of course, the amount of support and the effort put into the project should correlate, but I think that is the case. The market regulates itself by people leaving creators who stop creating. (I exclude creators who intentionally scam people as those are a different case and I think they are not the ones you talk about.)

Lastly, I think you took the wrong approach. You should not consider these people sellers, rather creators. You are not paying for a product, but supporting a creator whose creations you enjoy, thus you want to incentivize them to create more. The model is closer to twicht streamers than to steam sellers. (Especially, since you usually first "consume" the goods and then "pay for them", unlike on steam, where you have to purchase a "finished" game - I am looking at you, Cyberpunk - before you can play it.)

And since we are talking Cyberpunk - you know what is a broken model of game sales? (as this is not a development model)
Pre-purchases.
Because on patreon you basically pay for a game piece by piece as it comes out, but by pre-purchasing a game you pay 100% of a game without even being able to play 1% of it.

 

[Tompte]

... these people never promised to finish the game, just to keep working on it. And that is actually rather clear to all parties - supporters don't necessarily want it to get finished as it would mean the end of it. They just want more from it.

I don't think this is the case at all but let's agree to disagree. I've seen too many cases where patrons are promised way more than what's delivered. Often times, for whatever reason, the project then just ups and dies for seemingly no reason other than the developers lose steam or get distracted by a new project. It's always met with anger and disappointment. I'm sure there are many who would pay a couple of bucks to get access to a private demo and be completely fine with that but I wouldn't go as far as to say that includes everyone.

Even when it's not explicitly promised there's a general presumption that every project would get finished, or continuously release new updates, unless stated otherwise. Isn't that the whole point of crowd funding? Or are people, in a manner of speaking, just paying the developers to learn how to use Unity?

I'm not saying every game dev Patreon works this way, but a lot of them do.

 

[Cyberpink-dev]

You are not paying for a product, but supporting a creator whose creations you enjoy, thus you want to incentivize them to create more. The model is closer to twicht streamers than to steam sellers.

This might be technically / legally correct way to put it, but this doesn't mean that people see it this way. I can imagine many customers actually expect something specific. It depends on how the Patreon page is marketed too. Many games seem to follow the pattern of "Pay and get the latest build", so many customers pay one month and then stop. In a way there is a price tag on the game, even if it's not directly stated that way anywhere.

I could be mistaken, but don't a lot of games also mention "Pledge x amount and get a steam key once the game is released". This in my eyes gives a really clear end goal. Of course if good money keeps coming in then more could be added on top of the release version. I don't think the v1.0 release should be delayed due to that though. Just get that out and start making extra content on top.

I can totally understand these Patreon "promises" being broken when not enough money flows in. For example only 3 patrons. Just not enough money to get the game done. Once the income goals are met, it's a different story though.

 

[Marcibx]

... a lot of games also mention "Pledge x amount and get a steam key once the game is released".

The stuff that goes to steam is different. That is basically the steam sale path that I just described, the dev just goes around steam to save on comission. In that casae

I can totally understand these Patreon "promises" being broken when not enough money flows in. For example only 3 patrons. Just not enough money to get the game done. Once the income goals are met, it's a different story though.

I was only talking about creators that start a game, release a first version and then work on it as they go and patrons are just supporting them. My argument does not apply to cases when something is sold or is built with the intention of being sold (getting something earlier what would become available later for free anyway I do not consider as selling).

To sum it up:
There are fair devs and unfair ones. I see many devs stopping payments, because they don't have time (or will) working. Be open about what you can - and especially be clear about what you cannot - offer and when you break the promise, own it and reimburse your supporters, or if you cannot, at least admit it.

(Again, we are not talking about scammers and those who deliberately deceive their patrons, only about guys who just stop working for whatever reason, but had the intention of working.)