In need of some advices

[Alma_Elma]

Hey there, so, I will try to make it short.

So, i'm thinking about doing a game, with both visual novel, and rpg elements in it, but even if everything is pretty clear in my head, 2 big things comes to me, and i'm not too sure about them, so i'm seeking some help from people here, some thought, be it even opinion, it's always welcome.

So, my first thought was, with what to do the game ? I want both RPG and visual novel elements, I know how awfull it is to run from one point to another in an RPG like RPG makers, but it's the program that's the most accessible for the kind of thing i'm looking for, so i'm wondering, should I use RPG maker, and try to code in some visual novel "engine" and use the RPG side only when needed, or should I use renpy and do it the other way, so I would already have everything for the visual novel part and have to code some RPG in it.
Or maybe I could just do everything in RMaker and design it in a way that there isn't some quest where you have to go back and forth just for a quest, even more if it's the main story.

The second one, tough probably less important since I already have some idea, but what 3D software to use ? I can't draw for shit, and since I don't plan this to be a big project yet, and i'm bad at teaming, I would rather work alone for now, so 3D is the way to go, but I can't motivate myself to learn some deep 3D software, so I was thinking of using something like illusion to do it, it isn't bad looking by any mean, has alot of customization and freedom, and would probably let me more time to work on the game itself than with other more in-depth software.

I hope I can get some insight from people here, thank you for your time !

 

[Random Bob]

Hello there,
I'm not a game maker or anything, just a regular player really, but hey, maybe some random spitballing will be helpful to you in some way. At the very least I could tell you about what annoys me the most in games.

To be honest, I don't mind the RPG maker itself, because it isn't the "platform" that is the issue, it's the game's execution. I think we can both agree that getting lost in a semi-sandbox setting because of lacking instructions, or just flat out travelling 15 minutes between the scenes is simply garbage.
So, here's a though: how about just skipping those filler areas? Instead of moving through empty corridors, haphazardly designed mazes and forests, you could try organizing some way of a quick travel.
For example, let's imagine "a house" is the main hub of the game, where most events will happen, but you'd still like to have additional locations like "a bathouse", or "a shopping gallery" or "a restaurant", so what you could do is setting an exit area to trigger a pop-up window with something like "Where do I want to go?" [insert list of discovered locations]". You could have a character come up to you and say something like "Hey, have you been to the brand new "a restaurant" already?" and the location name is highlighted in a different color so it stands out in dialogue.
You know, convenient stuff like this.
Surely this would instantly cut the majority of "dead time" and confusion out of the game, while still making this a "game" (except without !pointless! running around) and not just a visual novel.

And by the way, best of luck with the game!

 

[Alma_Elma]

Hey, thanks for your reply !

I though about compressing the game in a way that you don't have to move alot, that there isn't something useless, but your idea of fast traveling is pretty good, don't know why I didn't think of it, but it would be a good way to move beetween importants areas of the game, and let the map exploration for the RPG part of the game would be the best way to do things I think !
I really want to make it more of a game, with gameplay time other than just story, I want the player to be able to grind, or just go for the main story if that's what they want, I want them to think while playing, not just read a book, but play and make some choice by other means than just pressing a choice where you can anyway just save, maybe some timed event (where you would be cleary warned of it tough, to not be frustrated), things like that.

Anyway, thanks for the idea I should have come up with, simple things really go over your head when you overthink things lol

 

[Random Bob]

Hey, I'm just glad it was useful in some way
It's truly astonishing how one can have a nearly complete understanding of complicated and sophisticated settings and solutions and then look at something that's nearly "common sense" level and be like "wait ... why didn't I think about that? It's like the most basic thing in existence". But hey, that's just human mind for ya.
Now that sounds pretty good, streamlining the story related movement and travel while keeping the actual dungeons/maps for gameplay focused purposes. Yeah, I like that idea.
What kind of timed events are we talking about here? Have you ever played "Way of the Samurai"? I generally dislike being pressured by time, but this game has a pretty interesting take on that. Basically the days are counting down until you reach a finale, but the time doesn't actually flow until you commit to an action, like sleeping or travelling or participating in an event. The availability of those events is also based on previous choices, time of day, how close to the finale you were etc. and oftentimes you had to choose one out of 2 or 3. For a game that's primarily about action and swordfighting it was surprisingly replayable because of that approach. Pretty unique solution, isn't it? I feel like it's less frustrating this way.
Well, if anything, it's nice to see that you're actually putting some thought behind the mechanics etc. To be honest, I'm just so very tired of copy-paste time-wasting levels, no quick travel of any sort so that I can spend 2 hours running around to complete a mundane fetch quest (combine this with a snail paced movement speed or lack of running option), enemies (constantly respawning too, because why not) forcing you into a fight every time you pass though an area, nearly every map being a stupid maze with a bloated size, every objective being placed as far as possible from each other, lack of a fast-forward or a dialogue skip function etc. So it's that's a nice change of pace for once.

 

[Alma_Elma]

Mmmm, seems pretty good, but I don't think of doing anything that complicated, at least not yet, I don't want to do something to big I can't handle in the and by my lack of experience.
Well, what I hate the most is how most RPG maker games made other than by japanese companie dont use at all the RPG aspect, in fact, they're just too lazy to code with renpy (which isn't hard if you get into it, people are just lazy), and the few games that adds the rpg elements does it poorly, without having much mecanics, level or items and all, on top of having little to no reason to actually have an RPG part.
But by timed event, I was thinking like, exemple, you learn at x moment that a girl is lost in x dungeon / map, from that moment onward, you have like 1 in game day to go help her, so like, up until you go to sleep or something, so that you would still have time, it could reward you with exp, golds and items, maybe other things, wait&see, but that's the kind i'm thinking, nothing too pressing or stressfull, I, myself, hate being limited by time, I love to be able to do everything in one playthough, well, as long as there is in fact interesting things to do.
The game will be shaped the way I like playing games myself, it may not appeal to everyone, but I still hope to be able to have some people enjoy it, and I guess most people prefer to be able to take their time instead of being pressure by a timer

 

[Random Bob]

Sure, getting overzealous and then having to cut and redo parts of the game doesn't sound too fun. Still, it does sound like your idea of time limited is similar to mine, so I guess we're on the same page.
I dunno about that, I'm pretty sure a VAST majority of japanese RPG maker games I've played end up throwing in gameplay elements just to annoy you. They're not challenging or interesting, just time wasting. 95% of the time it's just stock RPG maker assets and nothing else, plus the combat is just there so they can claim the game has rpg elements and any sort of gameplay. It's always the few basic stock spells and enemies, with no variety or requiring any sort strategy, all you end up doing is spamming a single spell until they die. And it takes forever because they always have just enough health to survive 1 hit, so you need to watch another combat round. Ughh ... Especially when gigantic freaking mazes with tons of dead ends and switches are involved. Example - I loved the cg in Fallen ~Makina and the City of Ruins~ but the gameplay was sooo dreadful. Oh, and the quick travel system was atrocious as well, lol. But yeah, the gameplay part being super shallow and extremely basic just reeks of laziness and at that point it might as well just not be there. Of course, if it wasn't, the game would be 15 minutes instead of 15 hours of mostly time wasting.
As for the game plans, so far so good, I'd say.

 

[Alma_Elma]

Oh, I see what you meant, I just wanted to say by that that they actually at least do use it, so it makes RPG maker revelent, i've too played alot of bad games with annoying rpg elements lol.
And that make me think, I was thinking of doing some maps elements based, so you would have to use an element to beat the ennemies, and would have like 90% resistances to all other elements for exemple, to add some depth, add some combo in skill, like channeling and all, while trying to have 3 way of playing, one where you can nearly only play the story, you will miss out on side content, but will get to do the main story without any grind or fighting, the second one being doing some grind, that will come with secondary quests, that will be where most people will be, since you will be pretty pushed toward that, and it will feel like playing the main story, the last one being full grind one, where some content would be behind some pretty grindy parts, not being that worth it to casual players, but being satifying to complete, while I will try to make them worthwhile.
Well, that will be the base mecanics of the game, I still have to think over alot of things, foremost the context, it's still not set in stone since i'm still thinking about some basics. I have to set in stone some good bases before trying to go too far, or I will lose myself.
Thanks for your thought on all of that, and your help, last question, what do you think about games using things like Illusion for graphics ?

 

[Random Bob]

Haha, yeah, but if it's the way they want to implement the rpg elements into the game, I'd rather play a visual novel.
I think Yuusha Lvl1 took this approach, I remember having to memorize which damage type worked which monster. Wouldn't be too bad if the game wasn't a complete grindfest (though locking the progression behind some mmo like "gather x of y" wasn't that bad), so the idea itself isn't bad - just the execution. (seems to be a recurring theme here). Hopefully combos would be more involved than the usual "use the magical attack buff, then use magic attack" type of stuff, though the buffs themselves are fine of course.
Well, as long as the grind isn't completely ridiculous and the payoff's worth it, I wouldn't mind that. Surprisingly, I don't mind having some game in a game, lol.
Well, gotta start with the basics, right? If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Sure, no problem, I don't have much technical expertise, but I can certainly say a thing or two from a player's perspective as for the graphics, personally I'm heavily (and I do mean HEAVILY) biased towards 2D, not just for nostalgia reasons, but also because I've seen some absolutely stunning 2D art and I've never seen any 3D even remotely approaching that level, BUT again - the method itself is fine, I'd take decent 3D over a half assed 2D any freaking day. I just have those bonus respect points for gorgeous 2D, because it takes so much effort to achieve. So to answer your question directly - sure, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, it doesn't look half-bad and I can imagine it's a *bit* easier than drawing or comissioning art from someone, in other words - perfectly servicable.

I really wish I knew of more stuff like this though (it's a school themed paper-doll maker thingy):

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[Alma_Elma]

Ahah yeah, well, that's what I wanted too, a perspective from another player, it's always good to know what people think in general, even more from players, since you're the one who will be playing (but again, all devs are players too ahah)
Well, honestly, I would have done 2D, but I don't see myself teaming up with an artist without showing off anything to begin with, and I don't have the budget to pay someone, so since I can't draw, i'm going on 3D, which is clearly easier and more flexible for someone like me.
Yeah, the RPG part scare me a bit, I don't want to make it too grindy, but I don't want to make it seems rushed or too little, but well, nowadays I can put up beta version (0.0001 ftw), get feedback, adjust depending on what the majority think (and that doesn't goes against my vision of thing, cause in the end, i'm developping because I like to, so i'm not going to force myself), and put it up again in the next version and see what people think.
though I hope that once I have some feedback, I will get the general idea of the balance and not have to redo things too much, even if it's part of the fun of developping lol.
As far as combo goes, I hope to be able to develop (well, hope, I still haven't tackled that in the engine) some double skill, like, if you have enough mana to cast 2 skills that synergizes, you can combine them to do a combo and things like that, though that may not be available right away.

Thanks for everything, I will start to tackle more in deepth the story I want to do, start creating in RPG maker and see what 3D engine I will use, hopefully I can get a demo by the end of the month to see if it's any good, and not set too unrealistic objectives, I still want to finish the game and not developping it for years (milking devs lul).
If you want I can keep in touch with you if you want to hear about future progress on the game, and I may use your feedback on some things to know right away if it's a good idea

 

[Random Bob]

Truthfully, I don't visit F95 all that often (hell, today was the first time I wrote anything on the forums since the day I've joined), but sure, I wouldn't mind seeing the demo or checking on the progress from time to time. I mean, when you start a new thread for the game, I could just bookmark it and pop in every now and then, so that'd be fine too.

 

[lancelotdulak]

RPGmaker is a joke. Want 12 people to play your game.. over the next 12 years? RPGmaker is the way to go.
Ren'py for visual novels/choice games
Unity if youre a non coder who's Smart and can learn to code
UE4 if youre a coder

It sounds like youre lost in your own head with all the choices. Id suggest spending the next month trying out everything and learning all the tools. I program in 10+ languages and have spent the last month playing with unity, ue, daz, blender etc (im VERY rusty on 3d). Just built a new computer that will ahndle what i need and settled on an engine and workflow. Even then.. im looking at a couple renderers still. Just go step by step man and dont lose the vision of what you want to create. You can learn the tools.