Internal monologue is essentially an exposition dump

[ChaosOpen]

While I understand that you can't really show much on a visual novel, so "show don't tell" doesn't directly apply, but I still think most of the information should be told via conversation between the characters with monologue reserved for short descritions actions of the characters. Too many VN go on and on as the character talks to himsel and it gets really boring(as exposition tends to do), not only does it not progress the story in any way, but most of the time it breaks up what matters, having to read 10-20 lines of shit I don't care about between every line of dialogue is boring and it feels like the author is simply padding the play time. I've lost count of the number of VN I've dropped due to this reason.

/rant

 

[Adabelitoo]

I agree. A little internal monologue is necessary from time to time but when someone does it frecuently is just a weird creepy MC. The longer the worst.

Here's a classic situation: beginning of the game and the MC has an eternal monologue each time he sees a girl explaining who she is and her relationship with you. Maybe the MC meets his mom in the kitchen and he has to do that, he sees her every day but for some reason he has to go on an enternal monologue. Why? That's creepy.

 

[Mimir's Lab]

It's funny you say that because I thought I was the only one with that issue. Another issue I have is when internal dialogue is used to tell what is already known to the player or reveal obvious details you could've picked up from the images. One example is when one character acts mad at the MC, but they show a slight hint that they actually aren't, the narrator will instantly pick it up and say "oh, she's not actually mad". It completely kills the tension in the moment and leaves no room for the player to make assumptions.

 

[ChaosOpen]

I agree. A little internal monologue is necessary from time to time but when someone does it frecuently is just a weird creepy MC. The longer the worst.

Here's a classic situation: beginning of the game and the MC has an eternal monologue each time he sees a girl explaining who she is and her relationship with you. Maybe the MC meets his mom in the kitchen and he has to do that, he sees her every day but for some reason he has to go on an enternal monologue. Why? That's creepy.

The ones that bother me are the conversations in which the MC is very talkative but it's entirely in internal monologue, once you notice that, you realize whatever character is on screen is having a completely one-sided conversation for the past 20 minutes.

It's funny you say that because I thought I was the only one with that issue. Another issue I have is when internal dialogue is used to tell what is already known to the player or reveal obvious details you could've picked up from the images. One example is when one character acts mad at the MC, but they show a slight hint that they actually aren't, the narrator will instantly pick it up and say "oh, she's not actually mad". It completely kills the tension in the moment and leaves no room for the player to make assumptions.

I find it is far more common that the MC has no idea what is going on but the creators have dropped several very obvious "hints," making it impossible to miss, so the audience is now 100% sure of something. But instead of doing something with this information the MC will spend the next several hours completely oblivious, the whole effect makes the MC look incredibly stupid. If you're going to have this scenario, then don't make it so easy to figure out, or better yet don't post a single hint. Keep the audience in the dark, if the MC doesn't know, then neither should the audience, that's the whole concept behind a point of view character, otherwise you end up with the audience viewing your character as a moron.

 

[woody554]

it's also such a wasted opportunity, missing a scene by writing a bad 'synopsis' of it and making your MC monologue it in his head. if anything in the exposition is worth saying, and it usually isn't, make a little scene with the characters playing it out. doesn't have to be long either. in fact, please make it as short as possible. it'll be much better. and if the scene turns out boring then you didn't have to say it in the first place. cut it.

long is always bad in writing. unless you want the character to read like a boring cunt, then make him use as many words as possible. long words. writerly words.

 

[HO_Dude]

While I agree that too much of internal monologue is detrimental to the storytelling, for me it is still necessary. I prefer showing character's thoughts over narrator's text, since it doesn't break the immesrion (or at least not as much).

Also I'm not a huge fan of revealing the synopsis at the beginning of the game. Something like "Hi, I'm MC and I'm living with my family. Here's my mother, who..." and so on. In the VN I'm currently developing I'm trying to dodge the situations where MC just repeats the known story in his thoughts or where the story that he already knows is explained to him in conversations with other characters. You can rephrase it in a way that actually looks like what you yourself would be thinking or talking about. It should all come natural, through the dialogues and related thoughts. For example, it's better to write "I miss Ann. Has it been a year already?" and show MC looking at a photo of a girl than "My friend Ann moved away a year ago, I miss her".
Still, I have moments where MC has to show what's on his mind in an internal monologue style. It's short and mostly lightweight.

 

[Virulenz]

I strongly disagree. To enjoy a game i need to identify myself with the MC and since i am more or less unique, i need to know how the MC thinks, what goals the MC has (aside from "fuck everything in sight") and how the story and charachters develop on the way you choose. Its also essential to know about charas you see for the first time in game but are old acquaintances of the MC.
But ok, i play the games for the Story and not for a quick fap, so i may be different

 

[ChaosOpen]

I strongly disagree. To enjoy a game i need to identify myself with the MC and since i am more or less unique, i need to know how the MC thinks, what goals the MC has (aside from "fuck everything in sight") and how the story and charachters develop on the way you choose. Its also essential to know about charas you see for the first time in game but are old acquaintances of the MC.
But ok, i play the games for the Story and not for a quick fap, so i may be different View attachment 601360

Well, you can see this the dumpster fire that is Highschool Possession which is story driven. It's basically about a guy who swaps bodies every other day with the school idols he thought led a charmed life due to their looks only to find out that even pretty girls have their share of problems. The problem it tends to have monologue that goes on and on about mundane shit that don't really add anything to the story, but looking at the incredibly short run-time, were clearly there to pad out the story. Even with all of the extra dialogue, I finished both routes in only a few hours.

However, you're right that a lot of internal monologue can expand on a story and characters,

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is an example of this, though I doubt you'll be interested so I'll go ahead and spoil it. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about with this "netorare" thing everyone was talking about and tried it out. While most of it is your standard NTR fare, there are some moments in which the character act incongruous with what they say they believe. For example, Aoi, the blue haired girl, says to herself over and over that she doesn't like the MC, but will sometimes reflect back "I hate him so much, why did I used to spend so much time with him" and "I cannot believe I used to consider dating him." As if the MC's 'delusions of love' were at one point accurate, but something recently changed her mind. Also, despite saying she loves the class orgies, she is often very hesitant and must be constantly pushed to continue by the pink haired girl Maho. And while she thinks the MC is "creepy" she is never able to come up with a reason why she singled him out as the only one, as her classmates also demonstrate the traits she finds creepy in the MC. Lastly, she seems to view Maho as a wise authority figure who made her realize how creepy the MC is and who she must obey rather than any kind of friend or equal.

These kinds of self reflections are seen throughout the story from both Genta and Aoi. All of this information is fed very slowly and subtly, never outright stated(despite my use of quotes), but as if one were reading a mystery novel, if you pay close attention, you start to pick up on stuff. Finally there is the ending, where the MC moves away and goes on to go to college while his classmates stay behind, working part-time jobs and continuing their orgies.

If you do decide to sit through it, you'll probably enjoy it about as much as I did, but if you do, I suggest you read up on traits of a psychopath, cults(in particular in-group/out-group dynamics, and forced reliance on the cult), and brainwashing(in particular the method of using a strong stimulus to disrupt someone's mental barriers as they process the information, then using that gap to rewrite the values of a person). That being said, I wouldn't recommmend it, not just because it is NTR and all of the dicks, but while there is some intrigue, as a whole, the game is poorly written fetish bait with a nonsense plot.

 

[Winterfire]

It is called

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, what is obvious to you might not be as obvious to others.

Presuming that something is obvious is what gets most players stuck and having no clue where to go in sandbox games... It is better risking saying something obvious for most people than detracting information (especially if it is essential information).

It is easy to give multiple contrasting options, but what is the point of doing that if the MC acts like a puppet under the player's control? A choice, an action, should have a motivation and context.
Just think about your daily life, you think about every little choice... Doing that in a game would be obnoxious, but at the very least the MC should have a resemblance of personality and think about the important choices.

 

[SeaRose]

I get your point. Even though I haven't played too many games to have a solid opinion, some monologues are just a roller coaster of thoughts that doesn't take the narrative anywhere.

I think it's necessary to have an internal monologue, but in the correct time, length and context (for example, in the beginning).

 

[ChaosOpen]

I get your point. Even though I haven't played too many games to have a solid opinion, some monologues are just a roller coaster of thoughts that doesn't take the narrative anywhere.

I think it's necessary to have an internal monologue, but in the correct time, length and context (for example, in the beginning).

Yeah, it is necessary, as is all exposition, however exposition is always going to take you out of the story, and I think that internal monologue is a pause in the monologue. The character isn't speaking, he isn't doing anything, and the other character cannot react to his thoughts, one line every now and then to show him thinking about some piece of information is useful, however, when every single line of dialogue is followed by 10-20 lines of internal monologue only for the character to reply "um...uh...okay" or similar short stuttering replies that don't really say anything.

I think one VN that did internal monologue correctly was

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where the monologue was kept short and was only about surprising conundrums the MC faced in conversation such as information that surprised him or responses he needed to word carefully. However, none of that was character building, it was simply a part of the lengthy conversation he has with people in which most of the character building occurs. Basically, rather than having the MC describes someone's personality, their personality is expressed organically through their interaction with the MC.

 

[freedom.call]

I don't mind internal dialogue/thoughts so much, except (yeah mostly at the beginning) someone says something to the MC and he goes on to ramble through thoughts forever before answering.

After what seems like forever I'm like ANSWER FFS! I'm old, I don't have time for all this thinking!

Answer, then think...when did that go out of fashion?

 

[polywog]

 

[moudy]

I strongly disagree. To enjoy a game i need to identify myself with the MC and since i am more or less unique, i need to know how the MC thinks, what goals the MC has (aside from "fuck everything in sight") and how the story and charachters develop on the way you choose. Its also essential to know about charas you see for the first time in game but are old acquaintances of the MC.
But ok, i play the games for the Story and not for a quick fap, so i may be different View attachment 601360

It is called

You must be registered to see the links

, what is obvious to you might not be as obvious to others.

Presuming that something is obvious is what gets most players stuck and having no clue where to go in sandbox games... It is better risking saying something obvious for most people than detracting information (especially if it is essential information).

It is easy to give multiple contrasting options, but what is the point of doing that if the MC acts like a puppet under the player's control? A choice, an action, should have a motivation and context.
Just think about your daily life, you think about every little choice... Doing that in a game would be obnoxious, but at the very least the MC should have a resemblance of personality and think about the important choices.

That's how good and meaningful choices come in handy, especially in Renpy games.

If you have a character that is shy, make the choices in the game reflect just how shy he is perhaps with the option to work on his/her shyness or go deeper into that rabbit hole.
If you have a character that is a bully, have choices that reflect that with either options about how to bully someone, or how the bully deals with backlash in the game.
If you want the user to be able to control how the character behaves completely, do that through choices that actually have a meaning instead of just looping back on itself and/or lead to game over screens.

Meaningful choices in Renpy games are so few and rare these days it's almost a crime.

 

[Winterfire]

That's how good and meaningful choices come in handy, especially in Renpy games.

If you have a character that is shy, make the choices in the game reflect just how shy he is perhaps with the option to work on his/her shyness or go deeper into that rabbit hole.
If you have a character that is a bully, have choices that reflect that with either options about how to bully someone, or how the bully deals with backlash in the game.
If you want the user to be able to control how the character behaves completely, do that through choices that actually have a meaning instead of just looping back on itself and/or lead to game over screens.

Meaningful choices in Renpy games are so few and rare these days it's almost a crime.

Exactly my point.
If you have a [Good] Choice and a [Evil] one or something more daring, but your character is shy you need to motivate it.
Without narration a shy character would suddenly shift his personality.

 

[Deleted member 229118]

I find that the best stories keep there dialog short.
A good example:
*player enters the room and see a woman sitting on the sofa. Player speak with the woman first thing the characters says*:
Hi mom.

That is all that we the player would need to know.
It is the main characters mother.
I dont need a 3 hour dialog about her sex life, her cheating ex or the size of the boobies.

I think more dev shoud ask themselves:
Is the information usefull to the player?

And by all that is divine i really hate it when the main character has opinions of there own.
For example:
Internal dialog: Mom has nice big tits.
Yeah i can see her tits.
1: big tits arent pleasing to me.
2: Your not a person.
Your my avatar.
Dont give your player characters opinions.
Stick to facts.
It works better.

 

[Adabelitoo]

It is called

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, what is obvious to you might not be as obvious to others.

I think we are talking about another thing here. Like this example


No... Seriously Sherlock? I thought that was an egyptian piramid, not his kitchen. Also I would never know where his sister was without the internal monologue...

This is the most extreme and redundant case but there are many case not so stupid that could be avoided.

 

[ltpika]

Dont give your player characters opinions.
Stick to facts.
It works better.

Then you don't have any way to hold interest and motivate. Take Ace Attorney as an example, if the main character does not believe in their client getting a fair trial, why the fuck am I working so hard on this? Wright's convictions are admirable, they endear you to him and move you forward to want to save your client from an unjust circumstance. Plus you'd lose a lot of comedy without Phoenix's reactions, they're pure gold.

 

[Winterfire]

I think we are talking about another thing here. Like this example
View attachment 602644

No... Seriously Sherlock? I thought that was an egyptian piramid, not his kitchen. Also I would never know where his sister was without the internal monologue...

This is the most extreme and redundant case but there are many case not so stupid that could se avoided.

Oh wow.

 

[polywog]

Visual novels are essentially graphic novels with sound, and graphic novels are, if we're being honest... comic books.

If you're making a comic book, and all the pages are covered in words, you done fucked up somewhere.

When they say an image is worth a thousand words, they aren't talking about a lazy ass render of a person standing in a room... they mean "action shots" the picture tells the story, the "kablam" is only added for emphasis, it's overkill.

If your image doesn't speak for itself, go back to the drawing board.