Just Started Rendering with Daz Studio - Need Help

[Phoenixfarts]

I've been playing a lot of these games for the past year or so and it's made me want to start creating some content of my own. I wanted to try many different programs: Zbrush, Maya, 3DS Max, etc. but they were all so much more expensive than I am willing to pay for what might just be a 15 minute hobby, so Daz Studio was the way to go. I'll probably try Blender later for some character model creation. I want to create some photorealistic renders of celebrities, for which I think Zbrush is easily the best program, but it's hella expensive.

So I've been playing with Daz Studio on my own for a couple of hours now, not counting the render time. I'll start looking up some tutorials on youtube or elsewhere soon, if I still have motivation later (hopefully I do! cause this seems like a great hobby). If any of you have any tips to give me, they'd be much appreciated. Also, if you could point me in the direction of some good tutorials that'd be great too.

Here are my renders in order. The first 6 took less than 10 minutes each to render, but the 7th and 8th took 30 minutes each and the 9th took an hour.

 

[CookieMonster]

Keep up the good work. Always be experimenting/tweaking, looking for improvement. It looks like you're already making internal modifications/changes among your renders.

 

[Studio Errilhl]

The renders themselves aren't horrible, but the posing needs work The lighting too. Given the technical quality of the renders, it at least seems you have a decent GFX for rendering, which makes it a bit more fun to test and experiment.

 

[Phoenixfarts]

The renders themselves aren't horrible, but the posing needs work The lighting too. Given the technical quality of the renders, it at least seems you have a decent GFX for rendering, which makes it a bit more fun to test and experiment.

Yeah the posing was mostly just stock posing except for the last 2. The 2nd to last one I was trying to make the pose where the girl lifts her leg over her head but I kinda gave up on that and decided to focus on just playing with the render settings.

 

[Phoenixfarts]

Keep up the good work. Always be experimenting/tweaking, looking for improvement. It looks like you're already making internal modifications/changes among your renders.

Thanks, will do

 

[tooldev]

Posing a figure is kind of advanced stuff but here are a few simple pointers:

Begin to think in bones when you think posing. DAZ allows you to 'freeze' a bone in place when you want to change a pose. So if you want to pose a leg as you described then lock the last bone of that extremity to keep the rest of the figure in place. It also helps to set your mind into a puppeteer state. Every single bone you move will make others follow - just like a puppet on strings.

For just beginning those renders look already pretty ok. The best advice/tip i have to keep doing it over and over again. Practice is really the best method for DAZ

 

[Phoenixfarts]

Posing a figure is kind of advanced stuff but here are a few simple pointers:

Begin to think in bones when you think posing. DAZ allows you to 'freeze' a bone in place when you want to change a pose. So if you want to pose a leg as you described then lock the last bone of that extremity to keep the rest of the figure in place. It also helps to set your mind into a puppeteer state. Every single bone you move will make others follow - just like a puppet on strings.

For just beginning those renders look already pretty ok. The best advice/tip i have to keep doing it over and over again. Practice is really the best method for DAZ

Thanks! Posing is a bit lower on priority for me atm. Do you know how to get those photorealistic renders of faces you see on DeviantArt? Is it only possible through post-processing? If it is, how close to photorealism can I get with just Daz Studio, because I don't plan on learning Photoshop till after I've gotten the most out of Daz and I don't want to use Photoshop for any renders unless I do it purely for artistic purposes.

As for posing, how do I get it to look like it interacts with the surroundings? Like if she was on a bed, how would I get it to deform the bed where she's sitting/lying? Or how would I get her to finger her vagina without it look like she's phasing through it? Would I need a morph tool or is there a conform tool that has unit collision on it so that I just need to move the finger or knee and the other surfaces will move out of the way on its own?

Also I need help with shaders and textures. Are textures are just image maps or is there more? What's the difference between textures and materials in the content library? Are Shader presets just the settings for the Shaders or are they the Shaders themselves? If they are just the settings, where are the Shaders stored in the Daz 3D Library?

 

[tooldev]

Thanks! Posing is a bit lower on priority for me atm. Do you know how to get those photorealistic renders of faces you see on DeviantArt? Is it only possible through post-processing? If it is, how close to photorealism can I get with just Daz Studio, because I don't plan on learning Photoshop till after I've gotten the most out of Daz and I don't want to use Photoshop for any renders unless I do it purely for artistic purposes.

It is achievable both ways. If you know how the different layers work together in DAZ you can achieve photorealism without any afterwork. Many people just know a 2d graphic programme before the start in 3d and decide to do additional work in there instead of making the adjustments necessary at render time.

As for posing, how do I get it to look like it interacts with the surroundings? Like if she was on a bed, how would I get it to deform the bed where she's sitting/lying? Or how would I get her to finger her vagina without it look like she's phasing through it? Would I need a morph tool or is there a conform tool that has unit collision on it so that I just need to move the finger or knee and the other surfaces will move out of the way on its own?

You can use 3 different things for deformation: D-formers, push modifiers and smoothing modifiers.
I happen to have a personal example for

You must be registered to see the links

. You apply a smoothing modifier to the surface that is supposed to be 'deformed' and set the collision object to whatever it is that deforms (in my case the g3f on the bed).

Also I need help with shaders and textures. Are textures are just image maps or is there more? What's the difference between textures and materials in the content library? Are Shader presets just the settings for the Shaders or are they the Shaders themselves? If they are just the settings, where are the Shaders stored in the Daz 3D Library?

Uh - this would become a very long post if i would have to answer this Shaders are more complex than just being a simple thing to explain - especially IRay (which i assume you want to know about). First adress to understand those would be reading up

You must be registered to see the links

. As of texture and material - they are basically the same but also not at the same time You can have surface shaders as material ie

 

[TyronTheButcher]

After messing with Daz for a bit, you can bring stuff from there, into Hexagon and back( though interesting glitch with the eyeballs going in and out of hexagon). But as for adding realistic looks to figures, definitely play around with the side panels in Daz, they can take a flat looking figure and add depth to the skin.

 

[Phoenixfarts]

It is achievable both ways. If you know how the different layers work together in DAZ you can achieve photorealism without any afterwork. Many people just know a 2d graphic programme before the start in 3d and decide to do additional work in there instead of making the adjustments necessary at render time.



You can use 3 different things for deformation: D-formers, push modifiers and smoothing modifiers.
I happen to have a personal example for

You must be registered to see the links

. You apply a smoothing modifier to the surface that is supposed to be 'deformed' and set the collision object to whatever it is that deforms (in my case the g3f on the bed).



Uh - this would become a very long post if i would have to answer this Shaders are more complex than just being a simple thing to explain - especially IRay (which i assume you want to know about). First adress to understand those would be reading up

You must be registered to see the links

. As of texture and material - they are basically the same but also not at the same time You can have surface shaders as material ie

Thanks for the tip about D-formers! That helps a lot. I'll look into it.

I know translucency is supposed to help reveal a layer beneath, but I have no idea how to even add a second layer. Do you load a second texture map/material set and it'll just layer on? If that's so, how do you know when it will layer over or replace entirely instead?

Yeah, Shaders and texture maps seem to be pretty advanced. It seems if I really want to make my own photorealistic characters I'll have to learn about how to create and manipulate them AND photoshop, but that'll be further in the future for me because I'll actually be pretty busy. From what I gather, texture maps are done in 2d right? How does one do this? I'm guessing you make a template in blender or some other modelling program and then paint the texture you want with photoshop? That seems pretty difficult though... is that the right way or am I way off base?

 

[Phoenixfarts]

After messing with Daz for a bit, you can bring stuff from there, into Hexagon and back( though interesting glitch with the eyeballs going in and out of hexagon). But as for adding realistic looks to figures, definitely play around with the side panels in Daz, they can take a flat looking figure and add depth to the skin.

Thanks I'll play around on my own although I would prefer to cheat and steal someone else's techniques and settings lol. I'll probably switch to making a lot of low res regular quality renders to test out each difference quickly, unless I manage to find really good tutorials online.

 

[tooldev]

What you call a template is actually the UV map of the model. And yes - you paint on it and voila (wish it would be that easy though). The texture isnt enough to get the 3d effects. You need normal and/or bump maps and yes for skin in particular translucency makes a difference. Every little thing can improve or ruin the end result which is why there is no such thing like: this setup works.

 

[Rich]

One thing to note is that choice of figures matters. Genesis 3 and 8 figures with iRay gives much more photorealistic results than the earlier generations with the 3Delight. Secondly, some of the PA's who sell through Daz (and Rendo) just produce better figures and hair than others. I have a fondness for a lot of the FWSA figures, for example - they tend to look very good.

Finally, lighting is very important.

But a lot of what you see on DeviantArt is done by people who've spent hours and hours and HOURS tweaking fine details of their renders, and have lots of experience, so don't get discouraged early. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Rich]

Yeah, Shaders and texture maps seem to be pretty advanced. It seems if I really want to make my own photorealistic characters I'll have to learn about how to create and manipulate them AND photoshop, but that'll be further in the future for me because I'll actually be pretty busy. From what I gather, texture maps are done in 2d right? How does one do this? I'm guessing you make a template in blender or some other modelling program and then paint the texture you want with photoshop? That seems pretty difficult though... is that the right way or am I way off base?

Yes, textures are done in 2D, and they're not actually all that complex. From a terminology point of view, the mesh making up the character or object is composed of vertices, which are grouped into surfaces. Each surface has a UV map - basically a set of X,Y coordinates (one for each vertex in the surface) that correspond to a point in a 2D image. (They use U,V instead of X,Y because X,Y,Z are already associated with the vertex's position in 3-space.) So the UV coordinates specify how the two-dimensional image ("texture") "wraps" around the 3-D mesh. It's possible for two different surfaces to share the same image, just with their U,V coordinates referencing different parts of the image, or different surfaces may have different images ("textures").

When you get a "template" from Daz (if it comes with the asset in question), what you're usually getting is a set of PNG or JPEG images that represent one set of textures for an asset. The idea is that this shows you what goes where in the image, and then you can paint over it (or create another one like it) that re-colors the object in question. So if you want to change a pinstripe suit into a tweed suit, you'd create a new texture with a tweedy image, laid out just like the template for the original so that it wraps around the suit's mesh the same way.

Shaders are much more complex. Essentially, they're mini-programs that specify how light interacts with a surface. They typically have lots of "knobs" that let you tweak the behavior. One of those settings is typically the texture involved, but then there are usually lots of others. One easy example is glossiness - the same surface with the same texture can be matte, highly reflective, or anywhere in between. This is a setting on the shader which tells Daz how to calculate the light bouncing off that part of the model.

When you deal with Daz objects, when you look at the "Surfaces" tab, what you're essentially seeing is the shader for each surface with all of its settings, at least one of which will be the texture.

Hopefully that'll get you somewhat oriented.

 

[TyronTheButcher]

another note is that when you have the asset on a UV map( aka a Skin for example), by bringing that into a photoediting program, you can also add things like tattoos onto it, though that can be also a painstaking procedure to make everything lined up the right way, especially if it's a piece that goes over seam lines( mostly back, arms and legs) Most of all it just takes plugging away and learning what everything does, tutorials, forums, trial and error. other things that can be done there can be anything from scars, wrinkles, birthmarks, etc., and again, if you have a lot of time and patience, you can add realistic touches to the uv manually or create a skin from scratch using the uv but that takes a whole lot longer to do but if you're using real life samples you can get it to already having a realistic look to it and then only need minimal shaders/lighting/effects.

 

[kiteares]

another note is that when you have the asset on a UV map( aka a Skin for example), by bringing that into a photoediting program, you can also add things like tattoos onto it, though that can be also a painstaking procedure to make everything lined up the right way, especially if it's a piece that goes over seam lines( mostly back, arms and legs) Most of all it just takes plugging away and learning what everything does, tutorials, forums, trial and error. other things that can be done there can be anything from scars, wrinkles, birthmarks, etc., and again, if you have a lot of time and patience, you can add realistic touches to the uv manually or create a skin from scratch using the uv but that takes a whole lot longer to do but if you're using real life samples you can get it to already having a realistic look to it and then only need minimal shaders/lighting/effects.

This made me smile, you guys have some awesome skills with Daz then I see someone comment about designing onto a UV map as painstaking it gives me a sense of hope. I love the design process of taking a UV map and building a skin onto it, be it a skin or a tattoo or clothes etc. So much so I have a number of my designs wandering around in a 3d world.
It can be painstaking but it's not rocket science, we always recommended starting with either a simple t-shirt or a tattoo. Skins and latex/leather were the holy grail, because we had to fake the lighting effects as it was an old engine the world was built on and didn't have silly effects like reflection. I can point to some tutorials if anyone is interested.
I look at Daz and the best I have managed is a simple grainy render that's not even worth the text used to type this. So my hat goes off to all of you who have achieved even a little bit in Daz.

 

[Phoenixfarts]

One thing to note is that choice of figures matters. Genesis 3 and 8 figures with iRay gives much more photorealistic results than the earlier generations with the 3Delight. Secondly, some of the PA's who sell through Daz (and Rendo) just produce better figures and hair than others. I have a fondness for a lot of the FWSA figures, for example - they tend to look very good.

Finally, lighting is very important.

Yeah, I've seen some gen 2 renders from just 3 or so years back and there is a WORLD of difference between gen 2 and gen 3.

Yes, textures are done in 2D, and they're not actually all that complex. From a terminology point of view, the mesh making up the character or object is composed of vertices, which are grouped into surfaces. Each surface has a UV map - basically a set of X,Y coordinates (one for each vertex in the surface) that correspond to a point in a 2D image. (They use U,V instead of X,Y because X,Y,Z are already associated with the vertex's position in 3-space.) So the UV coordinates specify how the two-dimensional image ("texture") "wraps" around the 3-D mesh. It's possible for two different surfaces to share the same image, just with their U,V coordinates referencing different parts of the image, or different surfaces may have different images ("textures").

When you get a "template" from Daz (if it comes with the asset in question), what you're usually getting is a set of PNG or JPEG images that represent one set of textures for an asset. The idea is that this shows you what goes where in the image, and then you can paint over it (or create another one like it) that re-colors the object in question. So if you want to change a pinstripe suit into a tweed suit, you'd create a new texture with a tweedy image, laid out just like the template for the original so that it wraps around the suit's mesh the same way.

Shaders are much more complex. Essentially, they're mini-programs that specify how light interacts with a surface. They typically have lots of "knobs" that let you tweak the behavior. One of those settings is typically the texture involved, but then there are usually lots of others. One easy example is glossiness - the same surface with the same texture can be matte, highly reflective, or anywhere in between. This is a setting on the shader which tells Daz how to calculate the light bouncing off that part of the model.

When you deal with Daz objects, when you look at the "Surfaces" tab, what you're essentially seeing is the shader for each surface with all of its settings, at least one of which will be the texture.

Hopefully that'll get you somewhat oriented.

Wow, that was exceedingly helpful. Simple and yet detailed enough to provide a basic understanding! So if you download shader assets, are you just downloading the shader preset settings? Or I guess in some cases where the in-built Daz3D shader mini-programs aren't good enough, they include an add-on? Are there in-built Daz3D shader programs? There has to be if there is a Surface tab.

I'm not familiar with the terminology, but I'm guessing vertices are points on the 3D model that correspond to points on the UV map? How would you get them to line up? I guess by using the templates provided in the Daz3D assets you can download? That would make a lot of sense if each model has a set number of vertices no matter how you morph it. Or does that not matter? Do Gen 8 and Gen 3 have different number of vertices?

But a lot of what you see on DeviantArt is done by people who've spent hours and hours and HOURS tweaking fine details of their renders, and have lots of experience, so don't get discouraged early. Practice, practice, practice.

Haha I'm not getting too discouraged yet, it's just that every question I have answered raises up a lot more questions for me. And yeah, it does seem impossible to create what they do on DeviantArt without spending at least tens of hours tweaking the details. It might even take hundreds of hours until they've really mastered the various skills.

I do really want to be able to reach their skill level at one point, but I'm not yet willing to pay the thousands of dollars or capable of spending the thousands of hours needed to use and learn the AutoDesk programs and Zbrush to create those models or bump maps. Are bump maps created with those programs?

 

[evoR]

I recommend you watch everything in the official Daz 3D channel and also The WP Guru on YouTube.

 

[Phoenixfarts]

What you call a template is actually the UV map of the model. And yes - you paint on it and voila (wish it would be that easy though). The texture isnt enough to get the 3d effects. You need normal and/or bump maps and yes for skin in particular translucency makes a difference. Every little thing can improve or ruin the end result which is why there is no such thing like: this setup works.

I think I've seen bump map tutorials on youtube for Maya, I think. Is it possible to do with Blender?

another note is that when you have the asset on a UV map( aka a Skin for example), by bringing that into a photoediting program, you can also add things like tattoos onto it, though that can be also a painstaking procedure to make everything lined up the right way, especially if it's a piece that goes over seam lines( mostly back, arms and legs) Most of all it just takes plugging away and learning what everything does, tutorials, forums, trial and error. other things that can be done there can be anything from scars, wrinkles, birthmarks, etc., and again, if you have a lot of time and patience, you can add realistic touches to the uv manually or create a skin from scratch using the uv but that takes a whole lot longer to do but if you're using real life samples you can get it to already having a realistic look to it and then only need minimal shaders/lighting/effects.

Yeah, any detail you can add to the skin will make a world of difference. I don't think I'd be doing any UV map editing of my own for a while. I think I've found some assets with some decent ones already made so I'll probably stick to those for a while until I want to do something custom.

This made me smile, you guys have some awesome skills with Daz then I see someone comment about designing onto a UV map as painstaking it gives me a sense of hope. I love the design process of taking a UV map and building a skin onto it, be it a skin or a tattoo or clothes etc. So much so I have a number of my designs wandering around in a 3d world.
It can be painstaking but it's not rocket science, we always recommended starting with either a simple t-shirt or a tattoo. Skins and latex/leather were the holy grail, because we had to fake the lighting effects as it was an old engine the world was built on and didn't have silly effects like reflection. I can point to some tutorials if anyone is interested.
I look at Daz and the best I have managed is a simple grainy render that's not even worth the text used to type this. So my hat goes off to all of you who have achieved even a little bit in Daz.

You should post your renders and ask for some input like I did!

 

[Phoenixfarts]

So my max time is set at the default 7200 seconds for the newest renders I've made and usually it only reaches 50% before the 7200 seconds are up. Is there a substantial increase in render quality if I remove the time limit and let it reach 100% or is it only a minute difference? Personally, hour 1-2 I don't see a Massive difference, but it still is an appreciable difference. I'll try rendering the same scene later with the time limit off, but as it'd probably take a significant chunk of time I'll do it when I go to sleep.