Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[Sarkath]

I really needed to share my frustration with someone. That new news by Inno on her blogpost about "who could have thought that race modding what is the point of it? is a challenge and the fields content will be mostly placeholders because next week is all Inno will be able to spare for them before release" or something like that. That just not funny anymore

Honestly, I can understand why race modding would be important moving forward. It's easy to write it off as being a nice-to-have feature, but if she does plan to add a bunch of races in the fields it could end up saving a ton of effort and time moving forward. From the way she described it, it's more about making races traits more modular, so it would benefit her as much as others. I don't really see something like that as scope creep, honestly, given what the game allows you to do in terms of transformation.

Of course, when you combine it with the numerous delays, as well as the fact that the recent refactors and code revamps are probably correcting earlier bad design decisions…yeah, it's kinda frustrating. I'm not sure if it's a time management issue or what, but I think if Inno were able to give more realistic timelines it would quell a lot of angst.

The thing that really troubles me is that there are some parts of the core game that need serious optimization. If you end up getting enough roommates (slaves or offspring), the game starts to chug. From what I can gather (based on some quick profiling) it's related to how the game calculates the state of each named character between two points of time. I fear this is only going to get worse as development continues.

 

[organord]

If you end up getting enough roommates (slaves or offspring), the game starts to chug.

Color me curious; how crowded was your home when you started noticing this issue?

 

[DarthSion98]

Honestly, I can understand why race modding would be important moving forward. It's easy to write it off as being a nice-to-have feature, but if she does plan to add a bunch of races in the fields it could end up saving a ton of effort and time moving forward. From the way she described it, it's more about making races traits more modular, so it would benefit her as much as others. I don't really see something like that as scope creep, honestly, given what the game allows you to do in terms of transformation.

Of course, when you combine it with the numerous delays, as well as the fact that the recent refactors and code revamps are probably correcting earlier bad design decisions…yeah, it's kinda frustrating. I'm not sure if it's a time management issue or what, but I think if Inno were able to give more realistic timelines it would quell a lot of angst.

The thing that really troubles me is that there are some parts of the core game that need serious optimization. If you end up getting enough roommates (slaves or offspring), the game starts to chug. From what I can gather (based on some quick profiling) it's related to how the game calculates the state of each named character between two points of time. I fear this is only going to get worse as development continues.

If you get too many offspring, the offspring map starts to lag.
Badly.

 

[Sarkath]

Color me curious; how crowded was your home when you started noticing this issue?

I'd say I had the top floor about half-full, with an even mix of slaves and offspring. I kinda reproduced like a rabbit on Viagra in that save, so I don't remember how many children I had running around in the streets.

What ended up happening in my case is that the game started out being super responsive, but it got to the point where moving around on the map felt sluggish. If you looked at everything in a vacuum it was noticeable but not too horrible (~250ms) but moving from tile-to-tile for long distances felt pretty awful.

My main concern is that expanding the game world is going to give the game far more things to keep track of, so that problem is likely to get worse as the game develops.

 

[organord]

I'd say I had the top floor about half-full, with an even mix of slaves and offspring. I kinda reproduced like a rabbit on Viagra in that save, so I don't remember how many children I had running around in the streets.

What ended up happening in my case is that the game started out being super responsive, but it got to the point where moving around on the map felt sluggish. If you looked at everything in a vacuum it was noticeable but not too horrible (~250ms) but moving from tile-to-tile for long distances felt pretty awful.

My main concern is that expanding the game world is going to give the game far more things to keep track of, so that problem is likely to get worse as the game develops.

Oh I see, thanks. I'm fairly close to having that amount of slaves/offspring in the house; the top floor being half-full will occur after the current batch of four pregnancies passes.
I don't have any offspring running wild though, I've been picking the partners who I impregnate or get impregnated by since I intend to house every single one of them.

In addition to that, when I roughly eyeball the dominion and submission maps, I only have between 5% and 10% of the dangerous tiles filled with a "known" random-gen NPC, so I guess my overall persistent NPC count isn't too bad?

So far I have not noticed a slowdown when moving.
I'll be treading carefully, trying not to create unnecessary persistent NPCs, and see how long into future content I can make it before noticing a slowdown with each step.

 

[Sarkath]

I don't have any offspring running wild though, I've been picking the partners who I impregnate or get impregnated by since I intend to house every single one of them.

In addition to that, when I roughly eyeball the dominion and submission maps, I only have between 5% and 10% of the dangerous tiles filled with a "known" random-gen NPC, so I guess my overall persistent NPC count isn't too bad?

Ah, yeah, my old save was pretty busy. I'd say I had somewhere around 30-40% of the dangerous tiles populated (mostly due to looking for specific species/fetishes and not having the heart to chase people off if I didn't have to). It definitely took a while for things to start getting sluggish, and the process was gradual enough that when I started a new game I was surprised at how well the game was running.

I'm kinda thinking about looking into exactly what's causing the slowdown one of these days. I would have figured that it would be the number of people you have living with you, but it sounds like it might be related to the otherwise passive named NPCs (or maybe even undiscovered offspring—as BlackDragon mentioned, the offspring map really gets unhappy if you decide to be a prolific breeder).

 

[Carl0sDanger]

Honestly, I can understand why race modding would be important moving forward.

The race stuff Inno is currently working on is vital. To v0.5 (the jungle area). So I can understand that she wants it in place before then, but seriously? Before _any_ content outside the walls of Dominion?

Going by what she's saying ATM, these changes should be the final major rework needed on the race mechanics though. It will, for example, allow mermaid tails and cephalopod-stuff when the main quest reaches the ocean area. And that's good.

But what Inno needs to be doing (IMHO of course) is settling into a rhythm of forward progress, bugfix, forward progress. The game has been stalled for too long.

 

[Taak]

Honestly, I can understand why race modding would be important moving forward. It's easy to write it off as being a nice-to-have feature, but if she does plan to add a bunch of races in the fields it could end up saving a ton of effort and time moving forward. From the way she described it, it's more about making races traits more modular, so it would benefit her as much as others. I don't really see something like that as scope creep, honestly, given what the game allows you to do in terms of transformation.

Of course, when you combine it with the numerous delays, as well as the fact that the recent refactors and code revamps are probably correcting earlier bad design decisions…yeah, it's kinda frustrating. I'm not sure if it's a time management issue or what, but I think if Inno were able to give more realistic timelines it would quell a lot of angst.

The thing that really troubles me is that there are some parts of the core game that need serious optimization. If you end up getting enough roommates (slaves or offspring), the game starts to chug. From what I can gather (based on some quick profiling) it's related to how the game calculates the state of each named character between two points of time. I fear this is only going to get worse as development continues.

The race stuff Inno is currently working on is vital. To v0.5 (the jungle area). So I can understand that she wants it in place before then, but seriously? Before _any_ content outside the walls of Dominion?

Going by what she's saying ATM, these changes should be the final major rework needed on the race mechanics though. It will, for example, allow mermaid tails and cephalopod-stuff when the main quest reaches the ocean area. And that's good.

But what Inno needs to be doing (IMHO of course) is settling into a rhythm of forward progress, bugfix, forward progress. The game has been stalled for too long.

Yup. We already have enough species and subspecies in the game for the fields... and also centaurs! Centaurs which were supposed to be the main part of fields based both on the story quest and blog posts by Inno from the time when centaurs were worked on.
So... I really don't see the reason for racial modding as something that has to be done now. Additionally I don't see much reason in doing it because currently a lot of things (body part modifiers, personality types) don't have any gameplay effect.

So... Yeah... It feels like something that is completely out of scope.

 

[Sarkath]

The race stuff Inno is currently working on is vital. To v0.5 (the jungle area). So I can understand that she wants it in place before then, but seriously? Before _any_ content outside the walls of Dominion?

It's a complicated balance, since LT is early enough in development that failing to fix fundamental flaws in the engine could lead to serious issues down the road and possibly more delays, yet right now there's undoubtedly a dearth of new content to keep people, erm, salivating.

In the case of the race overhaul: I can say with pretty high certainty that it will affect the 0.4 content to some extent, as a lot of the racial checks in the game at present (such as the ability to use the fem-wolf persuasion on Brax, and many, many more things) are hardcoded and sprinkled all throughout the code. If 0.4 has similar checks, and Inno implements them in the same way, the problem is only going to get worse if she doesn't fix it now.

Again, this is speaking purely from an analytical perspective. Just to be clear: I don't blame you one bit for pulling your pledge, and I agree that this project definitely has management issues (both with time management and with managing subscriber expectations). I just don't feel like this sort of thing could have been avoided, and that delaying it would only cause more issues as the game progresses.

I feel like being able to bring on another developer in some capacity (like one to fix up the creaky engine while she works on advancing the story and adding content) would help immensely, but after doing some quick napkin math on the number of subs she has in each tier I don't think she could really afford one at this time.

 

[anon707]

I'd say I had the top floor about half-full, with an even mix of slaves and offspring. I kinda reproduced like a rabbit on Viagra in that save, so I don't remember how many children I had running around in the streets.

What ended up happening in my case is that the game started out being super responsive, but it got to the point where moving around on the map felt sluggish. If you looked at everything in a vacuum it was noticeable but not too horrible (~250ms) but moving from tile-to-tile for long distances felt pretty awful.

My main concern is that expanding the game world is going to give the game far more things to keep track of, so that problem is likely to get worse as the game develops.

If you play a rabbit, take the brood mother pill, fuck another rabbit and also give them the pill.................... im pretty sure you can fill up every danger tile in dominion after one pregnancy. Just one pregnancy resulted in 56 children. Forget trying to fit them all in the mansion, I dont think you could fit them all in the city. Its a wonder how this place doesnt instantly suffer from mass overpopulation (which is funny because that's Lilith's plan to take over the world) issues.

But my game after that.... the chug was real, but I didnt stop. I just kept on fucking anything that was capable of having babies just to see how far I could take it. In that save I have 212 children. The only reason its not higher because I was mostly fucking races that dont pop out a whole clutch of kids at once and was purposefully avoiding races like rabbits and rats for this very reason. Otherwise I'd have well over 1000 children easily.

 

[charmmage93]

This game is very fun! ive been 3.6 version

 

[organord]

If you play a rabbit, take the brood mother pill, fuck another rabbit and also give them the pill.................... im pretty sure you can fill up every danger tile in dominion after one pregnancy. Just one pregnancy resulted in 56 children. Forget trying to fit them all in the mansion, I dont think you could fit them all in the city. Its a wonder how this place doesnt instantly suffer from mass overpopulation (which is funny because that's Lilith's plan to take over the world) issues.

But my game after that.... the chug was real, but I didnt stop. I just kept on fucking anything that was capable of having babies just to see how far I could take it. In that save I have 212 children. The only reason its not higher because I was mostly fucking races that dont pop out a whole clutch of kids at once and was purposefully avoiding races like rabbits and rats for this very reason. Otherwise I'd have well over 1000 children easily.

Oh boy, now I'm worried.
Two of the last four pregnancies pending (after which I took the sterility perks) are the brothel bunny sisters.

My avatar isn't a rabbit, and I didn't take any perks or pills to increase litter size, but I guess I'm still not going to get away with a neat four offspring out of those four pregnancies then...

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Oh boy, now I'm worried.
Two of the last four pregnancies pending (after which I took the sterility perks) are the brothel bunny sisters.

My avatar isn't a rabbit, and I didn't take any perks or pills to increase litter size, but I guess I'm still not going to get away with a neat four offspring out of those four pregnancies then...

Oh, don't worry, bunnies only go up to 8 naturally.

 

[organord]

Oh, don't worry, bunnies only go up to 8 naturally.

Oof, still much higher than I was counting on.
I actually didn't think much of potential race-based fertility and litter sizes prior to this, as out of all my previous pregnancies, only one yielded twins and the rest were single births.

I went and checked the litter size ranges for the remaining pregnancies in the encyclopedia:
Two Rabbit-morphs, 2-8 each
One Wolf-morph, 1-2
One Cow-morph, 1-1

So by some miracle I could get away with just 6 offspring, and the maximum would be 19 which would be pretty rough. Ending up with around 10-11 kids from this batch is still looking to be quite likely!
I'll just take the hand I'm dealt, since I vowed to house every single one of my virtual offspring.

I'll just have to restrict my future impregnations to unique characters I like a lot, and always consider litter sizes as a mitigating factor.

 

[anon707]

Oof, still much higher than I was counting on.
I actually didn't think much of potential race-based fertility and litter sizes prior to this, as out of all my previous pregnancies, only one yielded twins and the rest were single births.

I went and checked the litter size ranges for the remaining pregnancies in the encyclopedia:
Two Rabbit-morphs, 2-8 each
One Wolf-morph, 1-2
One Cow-morph, 1-1

So by some miracle I could get away with just 6 offspring, and the maximum would be 19 which would be pretty rough. Ending up with around 10-11 kids from this batch is still looking to be quite likely!
I'll just take the hand I'm dealt, since I vowed to house every single one of my virtual offspring.

I'll just have to restrict my future impregnations to unique characters I like a lot, and always consider litter sizes as a mitigating factor.

As long you dont take the breeder perks or broodmother pills, avoid pregnancies with r selected race (rabbits, rats, dont know about alligators but real alligators have egg clutches of 15 at minimum so I assume LT mirrors this in some way too), give sterility pills to those with high fertility (like npcs with high corruption since corruption increased fertility/verility), and already have on hand plenty of condoms that can hold your cum amount, you should be fine with what you're doing even if you play promiscuously. Even if you fuck up a few times I doubt you'll even get close to 50 let alone 212.

 

[organord]

As long you dont take the breeder perks or broodmother pills, avoid pregnancies with r selected race (rabbits, rats, dont know about alligators but real alligators have egg clutches of 15 at minimum so I assume LT mirrors this in some way too), give sterility pills to those with high fertility (like npcs with high corruption since corruption increased fertility/verility), and already have on hand plenty of condoms that can hold your cum amount, you should be fine with what you're doing even if you play promiscuously. Even if you fuck up a few times I doubt you'll even get close to 50 let alone 212.

It seems alligator morphs have a litter size of just 1-4, I went and checked the in-game encyclopedia. Rats are also 1-4.
1-4 is actually still pretty high, all things considered.

Most other beast morphs have 1-2 litter size. Humans, elementals, slimes, cows, and horses can't even have twins, they're stuck at a 1-1 litter size.

Other notables: Demons of all sorts have a litter size of 2-3. Harpies have 3-4.
So rabbits are the riskiest overall with 2-8.

I've got only 15 offspring now, from 14 pregnancies; I just wanted to avoid going over the capacity of the first floor so early in the game (while inviting every one of my offspring to stay at Lilaya's).
If I get unlucky with the current batch of pregnancies (mainly the two rabbits), I'll overfill the first floor and need to start using the ground floor.

I've taken the sterility perks so I don't expect further problems (and if the perk system changes in the future, I'll resort to sterility pills and condoms instead; the perks are just for laziness' sake).

 

[Carl0sDanger]

I tend to take the sterility perks as well. I also usually limit my offspring to having Lyssieth, Lilaya or Meraxis as mothers and house all of them. Interesting to see other people's approaches though.

 

[organord]

I tend to take the sterility perks as well. I also usually limit my offspring to having Lyssieth, Lilaya or Meraxis as mothers and house all of them. Interesting to see other people's approaches though.

Huh, you can bang Meraxis? I must've missed the option.
I chose: Challenge (w/ Chuunibyou perk) > Duel (win) > Save Her
After the remaining quest dialog, Meraxis seems to be stuck as Lyssieth's secretary and has no further interaction beyond letting you in or out of Lyssieth's office.

Do you have to lose to her or something?
The wiki made it sound like you only had submissive sex with the 3 lieutenants, but I don't have a backup save close to that stage of the quest to check whether Meraxis joins in.

 

[Bocoboco]

Huh, you can bang Meraxis? I must've missed the option.
I chose: Challenge (w/ Chuunibyou perk) > Duel (win) > Save Her
After the remaining quest dialog, Meraxis seems to be stuck as Lyssieth's secretary and has no further interaction beyond letting you in or out of Lyssieth's office.

Do you have to lose to her or something?
The wiki made it sound like you only had submissive sex with the 3 lieutenants, but I don't have a backup save close to that stage of the quest to check whether Meraxis joins in.

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[organord]

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Ah, thank you very much, I'd never have discovered that myself for ages.

I was holding off on being turned into a demon because of how strongly they presented Lyssieth as disliking the process (based on her backstory and stuff). That sounds like a really great scene though, so it's tempting me a lot!