Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[DietrichGRU]

*Ignoring how people were totally not baited by entirely, 100% sincere posts defending the dev.*

I also understand it scales with how long you might have subbed, but at some point, it becomes an unhealthy obsession no longer trying to motivating the dev, and actively begins to poison the game's development. Then it goes full circle and the cycle doesn't end. It just gets toxic and will undoubtedly lead to the game being abandoned. Don't turn it into a complex.

Dev has already shown that she is not interested in engaging/having a LT conversation which is not anally moderated against real or imagined toxicity.
And, unironically, the prospect of this project being abandoned is not the worst case scenario. Not even the bad one. As a sane person already said:

Lilith's Throne manages to stand only because it has no direct competition. A load of potential in the wrong hands, waiting for one day to be saved by the community (once we get more modding templates).

This is what we have now. People are here not so much for the game anymore but for the community. Development (or the lack of thereof) has become a meme at this point and you know how it is with memes...

There is a project called Free Cities. A fairly complicated (and objectively the best) slave manager. Original dev abandoned the game at around 2015 and gave a blessing to anyone who wanted to continue it. It was picked up by modders, who for free, in their spare time, continue it's development to this day. Out of a passion, a thing Inno lacks. FS has been noticeably improved both in technical and creative sense ever since. And it's a goddamn html browser game.

LT community exists and is still alive. Project's potential is great and it's fairly well-known. There are reasonable, even, dare I say, hopeful prospects for it's continued development if one fateful day Inno disappears. Just saying.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

 

[Sarkath]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right?

The license would give me pause. LT is not libre software even if the source code happens to be available.

I doubt it would be an issue as Inno's been pretty great with regards to forks, but it's still a grey area nonetheless.

 

[SheepPun]

To be blunt, Inno's done some pretty amazing shit. She has

1. Produced a working beta that is reminiscent of the final product she strives for
2. Created a community that is passionate about the game, even in its incomplete state
3. Hasn't just dropped the game after all these years.
4. Has accomplished 1-3 at the same time

I know that list seems like minor stuff but like... how many projects, even ones of smaller scope, just die because it's missing one of those factors?

However with all that, I cannot, in good faith, recommend the game to anyone right now. Not because it's *bad* (though that doesn't help its case) but because it so easy to think of how 'oh, with these small steps, it could be so much better.' It's easy to get invested in Lilith's Throne and even into Inno, a lot of her problems are relatable, but ultimately the game isn't worth the potential heartache that comes with its current progress.

Here be stagnant water.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

While the code is publicly available, meaning anyone can create their own fork, the license specifically states the game is NOT an open source software and all ownership and copyrights still belongs to Innoxia. At the end of the day, this means she has the right to lay claim to any and all content you make for the game.

Not everyone is willing to dedicate their time and expertise to something that could very well get swept from under their feet and claimed by someone else... without payment. In essence, not everyone wants to do Inno's job for her, for free, while she gets the laurels for it. She's already piggy-backing on modders in that regard (my respect and appreciation goes out to them and their work).

So yes, in a sense, people will have to wait for Innoxia to officially abandon the project first before they can effectively work on it, on their own terms, without worrying about a copyright claim looming over their heads.

Quoting the section from the license:

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (email removed) all rights reserved.

 

[BaloneyAmone]

LT community exists and is still alive. Project's potential is great and it's fairly well-known. There are reasonable, even, dare I say, hopeful prospects for it's continued development if one fateful day Inno disappears. Just saying.

That's an ominous statement. I hope you're not planning something.

 

[DietrichGRU]

That's an ominous statement. I hope you're not planning something.

Ngl, it would be greatly amusing to see a news report about some weirdo apprehended in a local airport.
"Witnesses say that offender was furiously masturbating with one hand and holding a metal fork with another, while mumbling about some kind of delays. A piece of paper glued to the fork read "SACF". Scotland Yard took over the investigation process."

 

[tehlemon]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

For a just saying, that's not saying much.

There's some really, really obvious reasons why no one is going to ever do that.

For one, the software isn't open source. And for a second, Inno will absolutely kill any project that becomes more popular than her version. Because that's fucking obvious. Her entire livelihood depends on her version of the game being the only popular version. If anyone actually made the game playable and improved the content pipeline, there's exactly two things that will happen.

1) Inno kills your project. Something she absolutely can do.

2) Inno takes your hard work for free and continues to profit off it. Because the alternative is she kills your project.

I'm not going to pay someone who doesn't even bother working maybe 20 hours in a given week. And I'm definitely not going to work for free to earn that person a living. Specially when that person has a long history of taking other peoples' work and passing it off as though they're accomplishing something themselves.

And the whole premise is fucking stupid anyways, because obviously Inno would never allow a competing version of her game to pull away from her income. Who the fuck would be dumb enough to even think that....

Oh... Right.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

The license would give me pause. LT is not libre software even if the source code happens to be available.

I doubt it would be an issue as Inno's been pretty great with regards to forks, but it's still a grey area nonetheless.

The actual license text is very clear on the issue, people here just have a habit of only ever quoting the (admittedly somewhat confusing) introduction sentence.

License:

Redistribution, use, and modification of the Project and its Content, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. The Project must retain the above copyright notice and this license as is.
2. The Binaries must reproduce the above copyright notice (i.e. leave Innoxia's name in the credits page).
3. The Project, its Content, and Binaries:
   3a. must carry prominent notices stating it is modified, and not endorsed by Innoxia, if applicable.
   3b. must be available free of charge, if distributed.
   3c. may not be used for commercial purposes.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Sarkath]

The actual license text is very clear on the issue, people here just have a habit of only ever quoting the (admittedly somewhat confusing) introduction sentence.

You must be registered to see the links

Yes, I'm very familiar with the license, and no, those clauses don't really mean a whole lot when you look at the license as a whole. If you're dealing with a DMCA or copyright infringement case (which is what you would be dealing with in the case of a verboten fork), you have to take the entire license into account, not just individual bits and pieces.

And yes, those three clauses look fine. It's basically what you'd expect from a BSD or MIT-style license. However, let's take a look at the bits surrounding the three clauses you cited (sans the definitions, since those speak for themselves):

You must read and agree to the attached disclaimer before viewing any part of this Project.

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (innoxia7@gmail.com) all rights reserved.

[...]

On Content submissions and Contributions:

By making any Contribution to the Project, potential contributers agree to give the project creator(s) and/or maintainers a perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free license to reuse, incorporate, distribute, modify, or extend the aforementioned Contribution in any fashion they see fit.

So, if I contribute content, am I granting Inno a perpetual license or am I just giving it to her? Based on the top clause, I'm assigning her copyright. Based on the bottom clause, I'm licensing my work to her. IANAL, but common sense dictates that the more restrictive clause would likely take precedent.

Additionally, forks need to retain the license, and the license states that contributions are Inno's property, so that makes all forks Inno's property.

You see where the problem lies?

It's a flawed license and one that is not friendly to forks. If I'm going to commit large swathes of time to a third-party project I'm going to need assurance that I'm not wasting my time. It doesn't matter whether or not Inno is friendly to forks (and she does seem to be). Past behavior and words don't tend to hold up against copyright claims.

 

[Tattletale21]

bro since when did the LT forums turn into a Law and Order episode?

 

[Sarkath]

bro since when did the LT forums turn into a Law and Order episode?

Is that better or worse than when we were discussing model railroading a month or so ago?

 

[rasbinf]

well personally i just hope this game will continue

 

[throbzombie]

Hasn't just dropped the game after all these years.

You know your life has taken a wrong turn when this is item number three of four on your list of "amazing" things that a person has done.

 

[BeholdTheWizzard]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

I could, but I'd rater work on my own game (and I am).
Besides, I'm not a fan of fixing others people s***.

 

[SheepPun]

You know your life has taken a wrong turn when this is item number three of four on your list of "amazing" things that a person has done.

You know what, you're right. 'Amazing' is way too kind of a word.
'Has barely passed the low bar of notability.'

 

[Tattletale21]

You know what, you're right. 'Amazing' is way too kind of a word.
'Has barely passed the low bar of notability.'

has scraped the bottom of the barrel that is worthlessness?

 

[OffPathGames]

For a just saying, that's not saying much.

There's some really, really obvious reasons why no one is going to ever do that.

For one, the software isn't open source. And for a second, Inno will absolutely kill any project that becomes more popular than her version. Because that's fucking obvious. Her entire livelihood depends on her version of the game being the only popular version. If anyone actually made the game playable and improved the content pipeline, there's exactly two things that will happen.

1) Inno kills your project. Something she absolutely can do.

2) Inno takes your hard work for free and continues to profit off it. Because the alternative is she kills your project.

I'm not going to pay someone who doesn't even bother working maybe 20 hours in a given week. And I'm definitely not going to work for free to earn that person a living. Specially when that person has a long history of taking other peoples' work and passing it off as though they're accomplishing something themselves.

And the whole premise is fucking stupid anyways, because obviously Inno would never allow a competing version of her game to pull away from her income. Who the fuck would be dumb enough to even think that....

Oh... Right.

Look, I'm not subscribed to this game and after playing it I think it's pretty decent - so just wanted to offer my perspective as someone who's fairly neutral and been messing around with my own coding projects and H-Games.

I feel whatever you think about Inno, the basic reason that they make so much money for slow progress is that games like CoC, TiTs, LT with text driven transformation and complex sex combat systems are very popular and not very easy to code. So, anyone who puts the time in to create the basic system can work at whatever pace they want and people will still pay due to the shortage of content in general.

If these games were easy to make they would be everywhere, since they are profitable. I can say from implementing several features like LT's in my own game (link in sig.), that it's taken months of coding and more than 50 plugins to (in my case) extend RPG Maker to have a basic grapple sex system, time-based NPC systems, rough vs. consenting stance system, and stress-based game over rape system.

Things like transformation, large numbers of persistent NPCs and encounters, a complex inventory and looting system, accessible fetish preference system that is massively configurable and serves you the content you want, pregnancy, clothing and body states, dynamic character information screens - all of these are either infeasible or a long way down the roadmap.

In addition, Patreon and other subscription systems take a huge chunk of your earnings - so Inno's 7k is probably more like 4k. So with respect, people saying that Inno did 3 weeks of coding and is now just raking in the cash are not correct.

If you think what I'm saying above is wrong and you know a way to make one of these systems yourself easily - I genuinely invite you to do that. I enjoy these games a lot and there isn't enough content. Or...better yet, come code for me lol.

Again, not taking a side or saying people can't be frustrated. Just adding some perspective as someone who is trying to code this type of thing myself.

 

[Plumpunikitty]

Look, I'm not subscribed to this game and after playing it I think it's pretty decent - so just wanted to offer my perspective as someone who's fairly neutral and been messing around with my own coding projects and H-Games.

I feel whatever you think about Inno, the basic reason that they make so much money for slow progress is that games like CoC, TiTs, LT with text driven transformation and complex sex combat systems are very popular and not very easy to code. So, anyone who puts the time in to create the basic system can work at whatever pace they want and people will still pay due to the shortage of content in general.

If these games were easy to make they would be everywhere, since they are profitable. I can say from implementing several features like LT's in my own game (link in sig.), that it's taken months of coding and more than 50 plugins to (in my case) extend RPG Maker to have a basic grapple sex system, time-based NPC systems, rough vs. consenting stance system, and stress-based game over rape system.

Things like transformation, large numbers of persistent NPCs and encounters, a complex inventory and looting system, accessible fetish preference system that is massively configurable and serves you the content you want, pregnancy, clothing and body states, dynamic character information screens - all of these are either infeasible or a long way down the roadmap.

In addition, Patreon and other subscription systems take a huge chunk of your earnings - so Inno's 7k is probably more like 4k. So with respect, people saying that Inno did 3 weeks of coding and is now just raking in the cash are not correct.

If you think what I'm saying above is wrong and you know a way to make one of these systems yourself easily - I genuinely invite you to do that. I enjoy these games a lot and there isn't enough content. Or...better yet, come code for me lol.

Again, not taking a side or saying people can't be frustrated. Just adding some perspective as someone who is trying to code this type of thing myself.

You have some valid points, but I like to butt in and also add that a good chunk of these patrons/subscribers are just users who just pay and forget it. I don't really think that those supporters regularly check on how the game is developing, and I can imagine that their income would be noticeable lower if these users actively check.

Back when Fenoxo was still working on the original Corruption of Champions, say roughly a decade ago. There were a handful of inspired "C.o.C Clones", the majority fizzled out due to most developers being coders first and being writers third, fourth, etc. I'm paraphrasing (and probably misremembering) here, but during C.o.C once Fenoxo said along the lines that your game could be functionally better than his, but if you can't deliver content people aren't going to stay.

 

[throbzombie]

so Inno's 7k is probably more like 4k.

No, it's not. The highest processing fee that Subscribestar charges is 10%, assuming that it gets at least $3 out of the bargain, so Inno's raking in at least $6300 a month.