Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[Sarkath]

i think the reason a lot of people still pay these devs is heavy investment in the sunk-cost fallacy; basically, they've invested too much into the project to stop now, always hoping it gets better if they contribute just a little more to it. it's sad, don't get me wrong, and really irritating, but simple social sciences and psychology basics could explain it.

Yeah, good point. I wouldn't be surprised if "it's only a few bucks a month" factored into it as well. $5/mo doesn't feel like much, but by the end of the year that winds up being the cost of a full priced game.

Actually, as a newscast, as I was tired, it's the same as stress. Well....

<snip>

I read your post a few times and I'm not entirely sure what point you're arguing. I don't know if it's a language barrier or if I'm just tired. Please let me know if I'm completely off base here.

It kinda looks like you're arguing in favor of people like Fek and Inno (based on this and your reply to tehlemon). I totally understand the need to relax at some point in time, but if we take a look at R2CK the last release was in February 2021 and in one of the last posts related to the project he actually shouted out a community improvement project that was started because he wasn't actually fixing anything. Taking 14 months off and directing your customers toward competition while still getting bloody paid for it isn't something that most people can do in the real world.

Like I said, at least Inno communicates, but things aren't much better on that front. It feels like the percentage of community code in LT increases weekly. I'm not going to call it "stealing" like some people seem to like to do* but it's not a good look to increasingly rely on free community contributions when you're taking a senior programmer's salary.

Also, if the stress is really getting to them, they can pause their campaigns for a month. If Fek can't live without his $13K for one month, he's somehow worse at money management than project management.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against taking time off. In fact, I'm fairly certain most of us here have full-time jobs and can appreciate the need to relax and take a vacation once in a while. The problem is when there's significantly far more off-time than on-time, as is the case here.

* These contributors modded the game and freely submitted their code to a shared source project. Inno didn't hold a gun to their head and force them to labor on her game.

 

[IvoryOwl]

ha ha ha... I don't know how you imagined it. what I hope is important in demonstrating your work or placing it, and the respectful message does not matter. If he was on vacation, why not? ... have fun. (｡◕‿‿◕｡)

The crux of the issue is the unfairness of it all.

These devs make more money than the average person, have no boss telling them what to do, can choose their own schedule, work from home and take a break whenever they desire. Meanwhile, the average person has to make do with lower salaries, lousy bosses and annoying co-workers, (usually) commute to work, and deliver results within an expected timeframe; and they have to deal with it, regardless of personal issues, physical and/or mental problems.

Inno makes as much as the average salary per month in the US and Fek makes almost double that. Inno usually disappears 2-3 months per year and the last time Fek updated R2CK was 14 months ago. What kind of job would give these people several (paid) months off per year, just because they're "stressed" or wanted a vacation? What kind of job would tolerate excuse after excuse on why they failed to deliver results within X timeframe? These "lucky" devs are like those rich, whinny kids that complain about their problems, while everyone else goes through worse stuff.

 

[tehlemon]

The crux of the issue is the unfairness of it all. The average salary in the US (2022) is nearly 8.000$ per month and that's almost as much as Inno makes on SubStar. Fek makes almost double that, for a game that he hasn't updated in 14 months. What kind of "ordinary" job out there gives you a paid, 14-month vacation?

These devs earn more money than a good chunk of the population, have no actual boss, can make their schedule, can work from home and take a break whenever they desire. Meanwhile, the average population has to make to do with lower salaries, worse conditions, many have to commute to work, deal with lousy bosses, annoying co-workers and whose vacation is limited to one paid month per year. Anyone can suffer from physical and mental problems, but while the average person chugs through it because they have little choice, the dev goes "boohoo, I'm stressed, have pity!" and then take 2 whole months off. Or a week every month.

It's like watching a rich, whinny kid complain about something, when there's a ton of people out there in far worse conditions. Like, I get it that shit happens, but it's tiresome to see excuse after excuse when these devs have it better than a lot of people...

Yeah, that's my take away as well. And that comparison is really apt.

Every single thing we hear from Inno is complaining and acting like the victim, while Inno does nothing to actually address any of the issues. Get a fucking therapist or something. Unlike most of the country she can afford it. Unlike most of the country she has her own personal hugbox of a support network that could actually help her, if getting help was what she wanted.

I'm a firm believe in the fact that our actions speak louder than our words. Our actions show our true motivations and intent. It's easy to lie with words, but its a lot harder for most people to lie through their actions. And even if they did, usually the lie is the preferential outcome. If you lie about wanting to get better through actions, you're still going to be working on getting better. But the words alone are meaningless.

Inno has alternated between "I'm stressed and don't feel like doing anything" and "I'm going to try and stop not doing anything" over and over and over. And yet, I honestly don't believe she's taken a single action to *actually* change their behavior. No matter how many times I hear "I'm going to try harder", unless it's actually backed up with an action its fucking meaningless to me. I've heard that shit enough throughout my life. If you want me to believe you're going to try, then fucking start.

To take your analogy further, watching Inno is like watching the rich, whiny kid constantly complain and whine *BECAUSE* complaining and whining is getting them the attention they want. They're never going to change. They're never going to try and actually improve. Being whiny and selfish is what they want, because it gives them what they want. So I don't believe them for one second when they say they want to change if they won't act upon that desire.

It's like dealing with a drug addict, but attention is their fucking drug.

I might have strong feelings about this topic... maybe... Not sure how anyone would guess that lol

 

[Carl0sDanger]

And yet, I honestly don't believe she's taken a single action to *actually* change their behavior.

Quite the reverse. She's engaged in a pattern of behaviour that could have been designed to make things worse.

 

[sgb3]

While there's certainly some honest developers out there, indie crowdfunding has largely just become the 'Nigerian Prince' email scam for a younger age group. As others have said these people are just putting up a interesting project, do the absolute bare minimum to fool people into thinking you're still working on it, and then milk the suckers as long as you can. And the crowdfunding sites themselves are essentially in on it, because it's in their best interests to let it go without repercussions because they get their cut. Hell it's not even small time indie devs pulling this, Star Citizen has fleeced millions of dollars over ten years at this point to make little more than a pretty tech demo.

People might laugh at my reference, but it's same goddamn scam. Give us money and we'll finish this project, honest. Oh, I was sick this month please give me more money. Oops, it was too hard and I couldn't finish anything I promised last month; but here's one new room and NPC so please keep giving me money.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

While there's certainly some honest developers out there, indie crowdfunding has largely just become the 'Nigerian Prince' email scam for a younger age group. ... People might laugh at my reference, but it's same goddamn scam.

While I'm sure that there a few "devs" whose alleged projects are scams through and through - that is, the project was never intended to be finished; a promising start is used to secure backers who are then fleeced for as long as possible - there's no way it's the majority or even a significant minority.

Creating enough of the rudiments of a game to inspire people to throw cash at you takes some degree of talent and passion with no guarantee that anyone will support it. As scams go, it's a terrible model. What you want from a scam is minimal start-up effort, with work only being put in once you get a bite.

To take this game as an example, Inno's put in way too much work for this to be a premeditated scam.

 

[aspar4gus]

To take this game as an example, Inno's put in way too much work for this to be a premeditated scam.

As much as i love making fun at LT's current situation i still do agree that this game had never been intended to be a scam when it was first conceived.. i believe this is just honest pure entangled mess from someone who genuinely never had any professional experience in an actual working adults environment

 

[Fuscen]

As much as i love making fun at LT's current situation i still do agree that this game had never been intended to be a scam when it was first conceived.. i believe this is just honest pure entangled mess from someone who genuinely never had any professional experience in an actual working adults environment

"Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence", or, to personalize, "Never assume devs can code"

 

[ScholarOfTheFirstSin]

Watching all people jerking off and complain about it here never fail to amuse me
keep going everyone

 

[tehlemon]

Watching all people jerking off and complain about it here never fail to amuse me
keep going everyone

We're all very impressed and awed with how above it all you are. But hey, if you really want to watch people jerk off, a site dedicated to porn game is an okay choice.

 

[ebonheart2319]

Watching all people jerking her off in Discord and complain about F95 never fail to amuse me keep going everyone.

 

[Engelstein]

Watching my people jerking everyone off and complain about cum in the eye never fail to amuse me keep going everyone.

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

Watching all people jerking off and complain about it here never fail to amuse me
keep going everyone

I don't know which one is more impressive, that you're here trying to get a hard on playing white knight after all the others who had lost their luster in the forums or that this thread sees more plot development than the game itself. Don't forget that none of us would still be here if we thought Lilith's Throne was a lost cause, but goddamn does it tread the fine line

 

[mrttao]

I don't know which one is more impressive, that you're here trying to get a hard on playing white knight after all the others who had lost their luster in the forums or that this thread sees more plot development than the game itself. Don't forget that none of us would still be here if we thought Lilith's Throne was a lost cause, but goddamn does it tread the fine line

I think it is a lost cause. I am here to watch the discussion.

 

[BBGunna]

I think it is a lost cause. I am here to watch the discussion.

I believe there's hope for Lilith's Throne, just not with Inno involved sadly, when she eventually abandons it and it gets taken up by passionate fans and modders, maybe we'll see its true potential shine.

 

[Deleted member 1386652]

I want to wait for this game to blossom in a year to 4 years, hopefully that's not too optimistic, from now, but I'm afraid I'll have moved on in life and will forget all about it by then. What a shame.

 

[tehlemon]

Update time... I bet its funny.

Hello again,

First of all, I'm so sorry again for the length of time between this post and my previous one. I've been continuing to have a bit of a rough time recently, and so progress was slow, leading to me not having much to say in a progress post and therefore putting off making one.

Anyway, I'm making this post now as I've finally got back into the swing of things. I've got all of the writing for the new tavern content finished, and I'm moving on to getting bugs fixed and other minor things added for v0.4.4's release. At the moment I'm hoping to have it released to you at some point over this weekend, but please be prepared for it to possibly take a little longer than that.

Thank you all again so much for your patience, and I'll see you in the next post, which will be the release post of v0.4.4!

So basically, Inno took a month off. And now we're "back in the swing of things" just like we were last month.

So nothing was done. And we have more of a wait before anything gets done.

 

[ebonheart2319]

So basically, Inno took a month off. And now we're "back in the swing of things" just like we were last month.
So nothing was done. And we have more of a wait before anything gets done.

So someone messaged her on Steam, interrupted her 40k session and told her the Discord was restless.
Glad she could pause it for the 2 minutes to remind everyone she exists and owns their mods.

 

[Giros-40]

The people who have spoken on p.619 are right about the diabolical mind and it absorbs people, the discussion between the creators and their privacy (to put it easy).

these conversations are touchable if this person is like that... it's how people want to win perfectly and if they lose they blame you and whimper, or be second and he first.

well ... as I said ... if he has uploaded his work, it's fine and if not, here he stays with his romantic news. (if given, let's continue and if not... we stop at simple)

just for not getting into these deep things...

 

[Giros-40]

Update time... I bet its funny.



So basically, Inno took a month off. And now we're "back in the swing of things" just like we were last month.

So nothing was done. And we have more of a wait before anything gets done.

if so... okay... we wait calculating how long his promise that he said will take. and thanks for informing.