VN Ren'Py Looking for feedback

[noping123]

OK folks, buckle up because I type WALLS of text. (Now that I said that, this will be the shortest thing I've ever typed).

So. A few days ago. (A week?) I decided to take one of the story ideas I had, and create a VN around it.

First I worked on fleshing out the entire story. (Check).

Then I went about learning renpy and python. (Mostly check. I have a c++/java background, so while I haven't touched python before it's been pretty easy to pick up. The hardest part is figuring out all the prebuilt functions renpy has).

Then I went about learning Daz3D. (Checkish....?)

So, then I began building a preprepreprepre alpha build. And that's when I figured it out.

Daz3d uses 3d assets, morphs, all that happy stuff. That stuff, for the most part, ain't free. If you want to legally use it in your stuff (yea yea, i know. pfft legality, right?) You have to actually pay for it. (Or create it from scratch yourself, which is something I unfortunately will never be able to do. I can edit very well. I sure as shit can't draw.)

That was about the point I moved on from that (For the time being). I actually managed to get over my initial trepidation of Daz, and it turns out it's really easy to use. After only about 2 days playing with it, I already could do like 75% of everything I would want to do with it, and most of it looked halfway decent too. Granted something that takes me 45 minutes to do, might take someone experienced 15, but that's just a matter of getting used to doing it all. I never did get around to learning animations,(that's the other 25%. Idk maybe it's more like 60% I have no frame of reference here). but I realized the whole licensing thing was an issue around the time I was planning on trying to figure it out.

Despite not being able to build renders, I still wanted to try and get a feeling for renpy, and python, so I got to work. The story stuff I find easy (Or maybe I just think it's easy, and it sucks massive watery horse cock. It's possible.), so I just started to work about figuring out how to build it all.

So far it's been pretty easy. Every time I've run into something I wanted to do, it didn't take more than a couple hours to figure out. (The only thing that really took long at all was the small minigame I put in. While most of the 'game' uses just basic renpy stuff, that required actual python, so I had to research and figure it all out).

I got to the point where I technically have a functional game (Boy hoo boy is it short, and it sure doesn't look pretty!). The next thing's I'd want to do is edit the entire interface/menu system, but doing that the way I'd want to I'm pretty sure involves creating a mess of custom images. Since my art skills are non-existent, anything I wanted to "draw" would have to be done via vector math, and actually coloring in stuff pixel by pixel for it to look respectable. If anyone here has ever done that, you know how long that can take - so I passed on doing it for now, since while it might give me a menu system I'm happy with, it's sort of pointless without actual renders.

For now I'm going to work on a way to fix my "no render" issue. Not sure how yet, but I'll figure something out. Maybe hook up with an artist who actually has stuff, or win the lottery, possibly rob a bank, maybe start up a nickle jar and by next year I can buy a few assets, idk yet. In the meantime I'm going to continue working on building my story and learning a lot more of renpy and python.

In the meantime, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to take a look at what I have, and give me any feedback. Mostly I'm looking at two things at the moment: The actual story and writing (Which, I personally feel isn't terrible, but I'm obviously biased, it might be shit, and if it is, please tell me so, and why. I'd love to know how to improve). Second, the actual build. While everything I have at the moment is pretty damn basic, I'd still like to know if I did anything wrong, or in a really dumb way, or it's just sloppy as all hell, or maybe if there's smarter/better ways to do what I've done (taking expansion and modularity into account). Also if there's any basic stuff I just, didn't do or did, but did wrong or whatever.

This is what I've put together so far.

You must be registered to see the links

Like I said, it ain't pretty, but at one point you do get to see my awesome MS paint skills, so that's nice!

I know trying to suffer through playing that, or going through the script (which thankfully, is pretty short) is akin to hell, but I'd appreciate anyone who took the time anyway.

And yes. The name is temporary, and a nod to the lack of images. If you're gonna do something as stupid as build a VN with no V, might as well have fun with it.

small edit: There are 7 major references made in there. 5 are pretty obvious, 2 slightly less so. Bonus points if you get really bored and find them all. I have a tendency to weave random pop culture refences throughout my writing, for no apparent reason other than, it makes me laugh. The tricky part is doing it in a way that makes total sense if it's not a reference, which I feel I succeeded in all but 2 times. Those 2 are obviously shoehorned in, but I'm ok with those. Generally I try not to force it, if it happens, it happens.

 

[ppoiues]

so if i understood that correctly your problem is that you can't use daz3D because you can't afford to buy assets ?

if that's the case let me introduce you to the magical world of piracy where everything is free.

also im sure you could find free assets online.

 

[noping123]

I *can* use it. I just don't want to put something out, using pirated assets. I have weird morals.

I am busy looking for decent free ones, but they're few and far between so that'll take a while.

 

[ppoiues]

ok just tried your game, very good story i instantly fallen in love with mia but it seriously lacks of incest

also you should go on allthefallen they have some free daz stuff over there

edit : i should add that it's a loli website but the have stuff that you could use too

 

[noping123]

Lol. Some people just love incest. I'm not hating on it. This game just happens to have an only child MC. (Although there's a lot more to the mother, but I won't get into that). Also this part of the story is effectively the prologue. The actual main story hasn't started yet.

I'm glad you didn't think it sucked. and I'll keep searching for free daz assets when I can. I'd like to do things legally, cause while I certainly do NOT expect to get rich, I'd like to hope one day I can get enough money out of this to buy dinner a few days a week or something. That'd be amazing.

 

[ppoiues]

don't worry if your game is good money will come the most important thing now is to get good visuals.

I'll search for assets too and send you what I find if you're interested

 

[ppoiues]

also it's not too late to introduce a younger cousin

 

[noping123]

I don't mind if I get 0 money tbh, I'm doing this because I want to, and I enjoy the process. I haven't stretched my creative muscles in a long time, and it's nice to do. I just don't want to run afoul of copyright/licensing laws, just so the option exists if I ever go there.

And I'd take any usable assets I can find. I'm not going to rush it though, because I have pretty good ideas already of what the characters look like, and I don't want to rush it just for the sake of rushing it, so I'll take my time until I have exactly what I want. Thankfully morphs are really powerful things, so I don't need too much - although the one thing I've had the most trouble finding so far are backgrounds and props. People seem to want to charge an arm, and a leg for them. At least the decent ones I've found so far.

Oh, and I'll think about the cousin lol. But no promises.

 

[ppoiues]

the one thing I've had the most trouble finding so far are backgrounds and props

again you should look on allthefallen they have some good thing over there

 

[Gallant Trombe]

This is pretty good! I kind of wish you didn't stop there though, cliffhanger in a demo for feedback makes it a bit more difficult to critique.

I only have one problem with it, that is the exposition. It's great that you didn't make the common mistake that is "As you know",
but it can be masked better.

For example

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

The bolded lines are the problem here. "You know damn well that's not what I meant" is just a slightly better version of "As you know".

You're trying to let people know the characters are graduating, and MC is going to propose. However, the bolded lines are trying too hard to force the information out of the conversation. It doesn't make any sense to answer "You really gonna go through with it?" with "we're all graduating". How does one not go through with graduation when everything is done and it's the final days of school? Now, obviously the real reason MC answers Henry's question with that is because he is evading, but that's where it could be done better for it to make better sense. Use this moment to show MC's nervousness and then set up the rest of the dialogue for easier exposition. Something like this-

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

MC is first evading by meandering, then he is hesitating due to his nerves, he even used the ring as an excuse for why he must do it. Henry can then guide MC into collecting himself, and the readers can learn more about the proposal and why.

The following lines can show the MC calming himself down and logically put together why he is ready, and why he believes now is the time to propose. Having the MC being nervous, and then vocalizing his logic is one way to make characters naturally speak in exposition. Stuff like "We've known each other for X years", "I fell in love with her ever since we met in that party X years ago", etc.

There are other lines that have the same problem. Like when the MC is talking with his father about the night. If the father knew about the proposal, he would have asked about the whys then, not now.

"Don’t you think that’s a little….. not very romantic?"

"We met at the same party after middle school. Took us a year to start dating, but I think it’s fitting."

This isn't information the father wouldn't have asked about the first time he was informed of his son's plan to marry a girl, ESPECIALLY if it is right out of high school. Doubly so if the father is portrayed as a loving father. I suggest finding somewhere else to reveal this info, such as the car ride with Henry.

That's about all the negatives I have. I really like the rest of it. The setup is good, again I would have liked to see a bit past the cliffhanger ending so we get to see what the story is about. The ending is a good inciting incident, but we don't know the action yet. But, if there's still more to go with the prologue, then that's fine.

Good luck with it! I look forward to more of this

 

[noping123]

Funny enough, that first line you flagged? I already flagged that one

I always do a first pass with my writing, then wait a few days, then do another pass. I finished writing it about 2 days ago so today I took a 2nd look and instantly flagged that. I still have about 60% of it to look over, cause I got too tired to finish, so I'll do that tomorrow, but that was one of 3 lines I flagged pretty quickly.

It exists the way it does because Henry is basically jiminy cricket, takes everything too seriously most of the time, and the MC enjoys taking advantage of that and messing with him. If I had to characterize the MC in 1 line, it'd be something like "Loving, lovable, sarcastic dick." Still I agree it could be done better. I planned on reworking it tomorrow, I just haven't figured out how yet, but it's just one line so not a big deal.

The 2nd line you make a decent point, I hadn't thought of that. To be fair, that line exists solely to drive the conversation, not for any other reason, but I can probably figure out a better way to word it. I should also keep in better mind whether I'm shoehorning information where it doesn't belong or not. That 2nd instance actually isn't that, it's just a throwaway line but I should still be more cautious of it. If I wanted to rationalize it, I could say that they discussed the idea of proposal, but not the when, (and in my headcannon, he bought the ring long before deciding when and how to do it), but thats just rationalizing, and you're right I can probably find a better way.

Interestingly, the ending isn't intended as a cliffhanger.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Beyond that I'm not sure where the cliffhanger is, but maybe I'm just too tired at the moment. I certainly don't want it to be a cliffhanger. In fact, personally, I'm a major believer that cliffhangers are generally bad. There are times they're useful, but generally I prefer a story carry itself, and doesn't rely on a "hook" to keep people coming back. If there's something I'm missing, I'd love you to explain it further, because honestly, I'm pretty anti-cliffhanger.

My other takeaway from your comments, is I have to do a better job of characterizing the MC, and wording his dialogue. I say this because your suggestion of a "fix" for the first line, wouldn't work at all. (Again I agree it needs to be fixed, just not that way). The MC isn't nervous at all until that night. Beforehand, he is 100% confident. Slightly worried about her response, but entirely confident in his decision. It's not until that night he really goes into "Oh fuck oh shit I'm actually doing this" mode. I see this as a problem, because his confidence (and at times, overconfidence) is an important character trait. So if you got the impression he might be nervous, that means I did something wrong and I'll need to go over all of his stuff again to make sure I didnt make him too timid.

(a note on that = if i did, it would be because I wrote a lot of his lines at the same time as henrys. henry is intended to be the more timid, mild-mannered of the 2, and it's possible I mixed their voices once or twice here or there. Either that, or I just fucked up).

Sorry about the wall of text, in all honesty it's for my own benefit - tomorrow I can reference this when I take a look at reworking some stuff. I definitely appreciate the comments though, it's given me a few things to look at, and consider for the future.

And yes, I absolutely HATE the "As you know". I try to avoid it as much as possible unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, because once you go down that route, you might as well just provide a bullet point list of "You should know these things".

 

[Gallant Trombe]

Okay, maybe I needed to word it better, but the example I gave was purely an example of how to use character traits to set up opportunities for exposition dump. I didn't find the MC to be timid or shaky, it's just the first thing that came to mind when I was coming up with an example. It just makes sense for someone who is about to propose to be nervous about it.

As for why I called it a cliffhanger...

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Don't worry about the wall of text by the way, I know exactly what you mean, I do the same thing myself.

 

[noping123]

Ah I get it. I actually try to stay away from exposition dumps for the most part. Occasionally there's necessary information that needs to be shared, but if I can avoid it, I do. which brings a question to mind im going to ask in a sec.

Whenever I write characters, I try to actually flesh them out and give them personalities, character traits, a backstory, etc first thing. I'm not trying to create a character with a name, but an entire person. Once it comes time for dialogue, I just let these people have a conversation which I'm basically hearing in my head for lack of better term, and I just write what they say. It's not foolproof, but for me it's a lot better than trying to force things. Thats why your tip about the expo dumps is something I needed, cause I don't always pay attention to it since I'm not actively thinking about it. Whenever I do my proofreading, I need to make sure to look out for that.

Now the question: sometimes expo dumps are necessary in some way or another. I try to do that via an external narrator, which is present a few times throughout. In this story, that's basically the MC, in the far future, looking back, telling the story. The MCs (current) thoughs are also present as an internal narrator. (albeit rarely. I try to only do that when it's relevant) The difficulty I'm having right now, is trying to differentiate them, so you always know which is which. Many times context is enough, but it won't always be. I've toyed with the idea of simply color coding it, but that... idk. doesn't quite feel right. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on storytelling, so I'm wondering if you know of a decent way to accomplish this without it being ridiculous.

 

[Gallant Trombe]

Ah, the narration. I wasn't sure why there are multiple narrators at first, I just assume it's because you don't have visuals yet. Descriptions like "Marie smiles again" wouldn't be necessary with renders. Is that supposed to be there? Even with visuals?

So, right now, there's a future MC, MC's inner voice, maybe even a present MC narrating as well?

I'm not sure who said the line "Of course I told my Dad. What the hell did I know about ring shopping?", future MC?

Then the line "My dad was always there for us...", that's present MC's inner voice?

What about "I should check in on Henry" and "ok. you can do this. Just ask her...", there's no character name for it, but it's not in past tense, is that present MC?

 

[noping123]

Yea, the descriptions are totally unnecessary, except for the lack of visuals. Once I start building those properly, all those descriptive things will be entirely gone. (Also, the onomatopoeia will probably be gone as well). They were just there for small bits of context where I felt necessary, that the visuals would normally provide.

and yea, that's my issue, it's confusing right now. I need to find a way to fix it. In fact, I've since gone over it and noticed a few places that I even mixed it up. (Narration that is intended to be future voice, that is presented as present. I definitely need to fix that, but even I confused them when writing it, I can only imagine how bad it'd be for someone else).

There's only supposed to be 2 - inner voice, and future narration. Because of how I presented it, and because I mixed it up a few times it's really unclear at the moment though. That's my one actual struggle atm. Everything else I either have no issues with, or am able to come up with a fix pretty easily - but I am definitely fighting on trying to figure out a way to make that much more clear.

Btw, to answer the questions, the first 2 lines are intended to be future, the other 2 are intended to be present.

 

[Gallant Trombe]

If it helps the writing process, maybe limit future MC to only the beginning and end of a chapter? Use it to set up and wrap up a chapter? After a scene is complete, then go back to insert it if needed. Try and say what you need to say in the scene through normal dialogue, if the scene just doesn't flow well enough, only then do you use it as a clutch.

That's how I write my scenes.

 

[noping123]

So, I'm curious if anyone has any ideas on my latest problem.

I was working on making sure I had everything needed for all my characters. Personalities, backstories, actual stories, along with a bunch of other stuff. To start, I had character info spread over a bunch of documents, and I wanted to collate it into 1 single document for easy reference. That is when I realized my mistake.

Somehow I've managed to create approximately 60 unique characters (I'd estimate, without taking the time to count, about 20 of them are vitally important to the story, another ~30 aren't vital, but they're there because the story, and the world theyre in wouldn't make any sense if they didn't exist, and the rest are mostly background character, but most of them serve to prevent plot holes or nonsensical interactions. for example, a relevant scene in a store in the prologue, the clerk would be one of those 10. not really a character, but still technically, and it would be really weird without him). And on top of that, I'm not done. Because I already have the main story mapped out, I know of at least 5-6 characters that are vitally important that I haven't created yet (I know they exist, I know why and what they do, I just haven't even named them yet or anything else except acknowledged in my notes that someone plays this pivotal role at some point), because they don't actually appear until much later so I haven't worried about it yet.

All told, that comes out to close to 70 unique characters, not counting background noise. (Background noise would be unnamed characters, with no dialogue that serve little purpose except to fill a room that's supposed to not be empty.)

In other words, I'm either working on one of the more ambitious projects around, or I need to prune, a lot. The 10 or so background characters, I really can't justify cutting - most of them only appear once or twice in the entire story, but plenty of parts of the story would either need to be cut, or just wouldn't make sense without them.

I could cut some of the "world building" characters, but even cutting 66% of them would leave me with around 40-50 unique characters, and the world in general would feel a lot smaller than it should, and I'd have to make concessions on the story to drop some stuff from it to account for the fact that there are 30 less people in it.

I could also amalgamate some of the important characters, (For example take 2 characters, get rid of 1, and have the other preform the duties of both). Unfortunately the ultimate side effect of that would be, many things that were supposed to be natural, and make sense, are now "convenient coincidences" instead. I'd really like to avoid that, because it goes from a comprehensive, complete story with a natural flow, to a bunch of insanely unlikely events over and over happening, strictly because the plot demands it.

Both are situations I'd like to avoid, even if I did, I'm STILL sitting around 20-30 unique characters, which is more manageable, but a lot.

Should I just accept that it's an insanely ambitious project and go with it, or work on pruning, or something else I didnt think of yet.

 

[Deleted member 1536527]

So, I'm curious if anyone has any ideas on my latest problem.

I was working on making sure I had everything needed for all my characters. Personalities, backstories, actual stories, along with a bunch of other stuff. To start, I had character info spread over a bunch of documents, and I wanted to collate it into 1 single document for easy reference. That is when I realized my mistake.

Somehow I've managed to create approximately 60 unique characters (I'd estimate, without taking the time to count, about 20 of them are vitally important to the story, another ~30 aren't vital, but they're there because the story, and the world theyre in wouldn't make any sense if they didn't exist, and the rest are mostly background character, but most of them serve to prevent plot holes or nonsensical interactions. for example, a relevant scene in a store in the prologue, the clerk would be one of those 10. not really a character, but still technically, and it would be really weird without him). And on top of that, I'm not done. Because I already have the main story mapped out, I know of at least 5-6 characters that are vitally important that I haven't created yet (I know they exist, I know why and what they do, I just haven't even named them yet or anything else except acknowledged in my notes that someone plays this pivotal role at some point), because they don't actually appear until much later so I haven't worried about it yet.

All told, that comes out to close to 70 unique characters, not counting background noise. (Background noise would be unnamed characters, with no dialogue that serve little purpose except to fill a room that's supposed to not be empty.)

In other words, I'm either working on one of the more ambitious projects around, or I need to prune, a lot. The 10 or so background characters, I really can't justify cutting - most of them only appear once or twice in the entire story, but plenty of parts of the story would either need to be cut, or just wouldn't make sense without them.

I could cut some of the "world building" characters, but even cutting 66% of them would leave me with around 40-50 unique characters, and the world in general would feel a lot smaller than it should, and I'd have to make concessions on the story to drop some stuff from it to account for the fact that there are 30 less people in it.

I could also amalgamate some of the important characters, (For example take 2 characters, get rid of 1, and have the other preform the duties of both). Unfortunately the ultimate side effect of that would be, many things that were supposed to be natural, and make sense, are now "convenient coincidences" instead. I'd really like to avoid that, because it goes from a comprehensive, complete story with a natural flow, to a bunch of insanely unlikely events over and over happening, strictly because the plot demands it.

Both are situations I'd like to avoid, even if I did, I'm STILL sitting around 20-30 unique characters, which is more manageable, but a lot.

Should I just accept that it's an insanely ambitious project and go with it, or work on pruning, or something else I didnt think of yet.

I'd suggest that, unless you're confident in your ability to go through with it, prune. Prune A LOT, as much as you can. The first thing that is universally recommended for a first project is to start small. But I have seen some people who have started big and managed to pull it off (though usually they have had at least some sort of experience in similar things before). Most of the time though, if you start too big you will end up failing, or at least having to compromise in a significant way somewhere down the line. Better to do it earlier when its manageable.

 

[Gallant Trombe]

Without specifics, I don't know what to say except this is not at all realistic from a development standpoint. I'd go as far as to say the story is unfit for the medium if it truly requires all these characters.

30 unique characters are within the realm of reality, it's very doable. If you can, I'd do that.

 

[VanKruger]

I think, it doesnt matter how many characters you have. But they should get a appropriate screentime. If you deal every 10 minutes with another complete new character its way to much. Better start with lesser character and bigger story arcs and add more characters later on.