VN Ren'Py Lust Odyssey [v0.36.1] [Xperiment]

[WazawaiDa]

Kinda wanna chime in here with a question btw.

I really only started playing adult games like idk a year ago, and this was the first gay male game (with optional femprot) I ever played. I'm a heteroflexible woman, so I def prefer guys and the bigger & more monstrous the better! So I figured I'd love it, and in a lot of ways I did! It was just absolutely incredible, except for one thing... being designed for gay men really bleeds through a lot.

Consistently wrong pronouns, wrong gender roles & attitudes, the scene descriptions (female anatomy wasn't used much) etc. You know what I mean I'm sure. It was a weird feeling! Like, I loved the idea of the game and it was so obvious that if I was a gay guy this would just totally be my thing! But ultimately I didn't feel like a girl playing it, I felt like an occasionally misgendered guy.

Since then I tried a few other similar gay games and realized it's apparently pretty common. And tbh in hindsight Lust Odyssey did waayyy better than the rest. But I couldn't help but wonder how much of this is a personal issue? It's not like I talk to a lot of other people playing these after all.

Basically - and I mean this with absolutely no judgement(!) - I kept wondering, why bother even adding femprot as an option at all? I mean it's clearly a whole lot of work, all of which could've been spent on improving it for gays instead? Or am I just being pedantic, and the female experience that's there is still enough to make it worthwhile for a lot of people? I'm curious, in a good way I promise.

I'm not really that knowledgeable about adult games either, tbh, I've barely played any since I'm very picky and specific about what I like. But I feel like 'furry' or at least 'furry'-adjacent games have the legacy of 'Corruptions of Champions' behind them as a kind of genre defining game, and it offered a lot of customisation options for the main character, including the gender. I've barely played it, so I have no idea how much of a difference it made there, but now most games include both female and male MCs as an option just because it did, I feel.

I guess there's also a common assumption that the player gender doesn't matter for the 'bottom' scenes and their writing, so the authors just change the pronouns/genitals (if that) and call it a day. I honestly don't know why they bother with it, though, if they aren't interested in writing M/F stuff at all. Lustful Desires, anecdotally, seems like it's the best at handling the FeMC content; I did a casual playthrough to see the content differences and there seemed to be some notable differences there.

In general, though, the bottom stuff doesn't appeal to me at all in these kinds of games, but I would imagine it would be an even bigger turn-off for female players since it's such a total opposite of what female-audience oriented erotica reads like. Maybe I'm wrong, though lol

 

[lud dud]

Kinda wanna chime in here with a question btw.

I really only started playing adult games like idk a year ago, and this was the first gay male game (with optional femprot) I ever played. I'm a heteroflexible woman, so I def prefer guys and the bigger & more monstrous the better! So I figured I'd love it, and in a lot of ways I did! It was just absolutely incredible, except for one thing... being designed for gay men really bleeds through a lot.

Consistently wrong pronouns, wrong gender roles & attitudes, the scene descriptions (female anatomy wasn't used much) etc. You know what I mean I'm sure. It was a weird feeling! Like, I loved the idea of the game and it was so obvious that if I was a gay guy this would just totally be my thing! But ultimately I didn't feel like a girl playing it, I felt like an occasionally misgendered guy.

Since then I tried a few other similar gay games and realized it's apparently pretty common. And tbh in hindsight Lust Odyssey did waayyy better than the rest. But I couldn't help but wonder how much of this is a personal issue? It's not like I talk to a lot of other people playing these after all.

Basically - and I mean this with absolutely no judgement(!) - I kept wondering, why bother even adding femprot as an option at all? I mean it's clearly a whole lot of work, all of which could've been spent on improving it for gays instead? Or am I just being pedantic, and the female experience that's there is still enough to make it worthwhile for a lot of people? I'm curious, in a good way I promise.

I think part of it is that it just ends up being harder than the devs thought it would be. For most traditional games, it's super easy to implement (literally just change the pronouns and that covers 99% of cases), so these adult game devs feel like it's an expected thing to have. Like, if they don't have it, they're "missing something" or "not ambitious enough". But in a game like this, where the characters are having sex all the time, it's actually a pretty ambitious thing to implement, especially if you also want to support dom/sub/top/bottom dynamics.

 

[MingeMaster]

Kinda wanna chime in here with a question btw.

I really only started playing adult games like idk a year ago, and this was the first gay male game (with optional femprot) I ever played. I'm a heteroflexible woman, so I def prefer guys and the bigger & more monstrous the better! So I figured I'd love it, and in a lot of ways I did! It was just absolutely incredible, except for one thing... being designed for gay men really bleeds through a lot.

Consistently wrong pronouns, wrong gender roles & attitudes, the scene descriptions (female anatomy wasn't used much) etc. You know what I mean I'm sure. It was a weird feeling! Like, I loved the idea of the game and it was so obvious that if I was a gay guy this would just totally be my thing! But ultimately I didn't feel like a girl playing it, I felt like an occasionally misgendered guy.

Since then I tried a few other similar gay games and realized it's apparently pretty common. And tbh in hindsight Lust Odyssey did waayyy better than the rest. But I couldn't help but wonder how much of this is a personal issue? It's not like I talk to a lot of other people playing these after all.

From what I've heard, characters being misgendered occasionally goes both ways in this (but isn't that common from what I remember?), likely because it's a game that still has a lot of development and bug fixes to get through. I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong" gender roles and attitudes though, particularly since the player character in this (and RPGs with player characters in general) seem pretty "neutral" regardless of gender. While I don't remember anything specific from this (it's been awhile since I played), the only other game of this sort that I know of that allows a female protagonist is Lustful Desires, and gender-unique text does in fact pop up in that whenever it is relevant within that game's writing. Enough times that I can actually recall several instances of it off the top of my head.

I also don't think that it needs as much work as you think it requires since, aside from adding female-exclusive snippets here and there where appropriate, gay male/hetero female bottom stuff is rather easily interchangeable for obvious reasons.

Basically - and I mean this with absolutely no judgement(!) - I kept wondering, why bother even adding femprot as an option at all? I mean it's clearly a whole lot of work, all of which could've been spent on improving it for gays instead? Or am I just being pedantic, and the female experience that's there is still enough to make it worthwhile for a lot of people? I'm curious, in a good way I promise.

You could ask that question for any role-playing game. It'd be like removing femshep from Mass Effect and everything associated with it so the devs could just "focus" on maleshep, or removing that plus elves/dwarves/quanari as player options from Dragon Age so they could "focus" on male human players. If the goal of the game is to seriously be a role-playing game (and these are) then I would consider that to be a major failure, but if the goal of the game is solely to pander to a specific group of people then sure, but then it wouldn't just stop at removing female characters, it'd become hyperfixated on either top or bottom content, or potentially other more specific niches, and perhaps just do away with most character options entirely.

 

[nackedsnake]

Kinda wanna chime in here with a question btw.

I really only started playing adult games like idk a year ago, and this was the first gay male game (with optional femprot) I ever played. I'm a heteroflexible woman, so I def prefer guys and the bigger & more monstrous the better! So I figured I'd love it, and in a lot of ways I did! It was just absolutely incredible, except for one thing... being designed for gay men really bleeds through a lot.

Consistently wrong pronouns, wrong gender roles & attitudes, the scene descriptions (female anatomy wasn't used much) etc. You know what I mean I'm sure. It was a weird feeling! Like, I loved the idea of the game and it was so obvious that if I was a gay guy this would just totally be my thing! But ultimately I didn't feel like a girl playing it, I felt like an occasionally misgendered guy.

Since then I tried a few other similar gay games and realized it's apparently pretty common. And tbh in hindsight Lust Odyssey did waayyy better than the rest. But I couldn't help but wonder how much of this is a personal issue? It's not like I talk to a lot of other people playing these after all.

Basically - and I mean this with absolutely no judgement(!) - I kept wondering, why bother even adding femprot as an option at all? I mean it's clearly a whole lot of work, all of which could've been spent on improving it for gays instead? Or am I just being pedantic, and the female experience that's there is still enough to make it worthwhile for a lot of people? I'm curious, in a good way I promise.

Welcome to our world.
This is exactly the feeling Many of us had, when we don't have many Gay focused games,
that need to settle with F/M porn or YAOI porn which were targeted at Straight Men / Women.

Why adding FemMC to a Gay focused game you ask?
While I'm not the dev, I'm 95% sure it's to "get a wider range of audiences".
Given the Bottom bias of these games, many gay bottom MC aspects align with Female MC, so it's and easy addition.
But It's still an Afterthought. That's why you feel out of place all the time. (You feel misplaced cuz you are)

The fact is, porn game serves very specific audiences, as sexual preferences often conflict each other. And when it happens, the game no longer functions for that person.
Gay devs won't ever hav the perspective of a female MC. Just like F/M or YAOI Porn don't have the perspective for gay men who like hunks (I also don't think they Care to even try to have).
They serve different audiences.

Is it worthwhile for hetero female? I'm not one so can't say much, but different strokes for different folks.
Also, there ain't many porn games for straight women who like beefy dudes.

 

[Elo91]

I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong" gender roles and attitudes though, particularly since the player character in this (and RPGs with player characters in general) seem pretty "neutral" regardless of gender.While I don't remember anything specific from this (it's been awhile since I played), the only other game of this sort that I know of that allows a female protagonist is Lustful Desires, and gender-unique text does in fact pop up in that whenever it is relevant within that game's writing. Enough times that I can actually recall several instances of it off the top of my head

Well having tried Lustful Desires it's actually a great example! Iirc when you make it to the first town, there's a guy who's clearly very into you, yet you - as a woman - are expected to pay them to have sex with you. I mean that's just not how it works. And that same small but critically important difference in people's attitudes, expectations, wording etc is everywhere. Most of it is barely nuance, but it's so ever-present that even then it's enough. I mean, I still FAR prefer that to the blatant misogyny most other games written by guys for guys seem to deal with. x.x Then again, even tho I'm a complete sub I'm not really into degradation, so maybe it's also that idk?

I'm not blaming the games mind! Like I said, especially Lust Odyssey was just so obviously amazing for what it does! I just wandered in here on a whim after checking for new games and spotting this one, saw the comment I replied to and thought I'd ask bc it always made me curious is all.

Also lud dud had a great point! Sex scenes are just wholly different from your typical RPG's since they really play into those fetishes & gender roles and can't help but dance on and over all kinds of lines of what's ok and what isn't. Non-adult RPG's don't have to deal with any of it at all, for them it's literally as easy as just switching the pronouns and that's that.

Welcome to our world.
This is exactly the feeling Many of us had, when we don't have many Gay focused games,
that need to settle with F/M porn or YAOI porn which were targeted at Straight Men / Women.

Why adding FemMC to a Gay focused game you ask?
While I'm not the dev, I'm 95% sure it's to "get a wider range of audiences".
Given the Bottom bias of these games, many gay bottom MC aspects align with Female MC, so it's and easy addition.
But It's still an Afterthought. That's why you feel out of place all the time. (You feel misplaced cuz you are)

The fact is, porn game serves very specific audiences, as sexual preferences often conflict each other. And when it happens, the game no longer functions for that person.
Gay devs won't ever hav the perspective of a female MC. Just like F/M or YAOI Porn don't have the perspective for gay men who like hunks (I also don't think they Care to even try to have).
They serve different audiences.

Is it worthwhile for hetero female? I'm not one so can't say much, but different strokes for different folks.
Also, there ain't many porn games for straight women who like beefy dudes.

Yee you make a lot of great points! I think you're prolly right. I guess idk, I just wondered whether other women felt like I did? And if yes, then felt it would be better for them to focus on gays to make the best possible experience for you guys! Definitely didn't mean any disrespect to the creators or the ppl playing it. And if this is more of a personal issue of mine and other women really enjoy the game, all the better!

I can really only imagine your PoV in this, and how hard it must be to find good games in mountains of straight stuff. x.x

 

[nackedsnake]

Well having tried Lustful Desires it's actually a great example! Iirc when you make it to the first town, there's a guy who's clearly very into you, yet you - as a woman - are expected to pay them to have sex with you. I mean that's just not how it works. And that same small but critically important difference in people's attitudes, expectations, wording etc is everywhere. Most of it is barely nuance, but it's so ever-present that even then it's enough. I mean, I still FAR prefer that to the blatant misogyny most other games written by guys for guys seem to deal with. x.x Then again, even tho I'm a complete sub I'm not really into degradation, so maybe it's also that idk?

I'm not blaming the games mind! Like I said, especially Lust Odyssey was just so obviously amazing for what it does! I just wandered in here on a whim after checking for new games and spotting this one, saw the comment I replied to and thought I'd ask bc it always made me curious is all.

Also lud dud had a great point! Sex scenes are just wholly different from your typical RPG's since they really play into those fetishes & gender roles and can't help but dance on and over all kinds of lines of what's ok and what isn't. Non-adult RPG's don't have to deal with any of it at all, for them it's literally as easy as just switching the pronouns and that's that.


Yee you make a lot of great points! I think you're prolly right. I guess idk, I just wondered whether other women felt like I did? And if yes, then felt it would be better for them to focus on gays to make the best possible experience for you guys! Definitely didn't mean any disrespect to the creators or the ppl playing it. And if this is more of a personal issue of mine and other women really enjoy the game, all the better!

I can really only imagine your PoV in this, and how hard it must be to find good games in mountains of straight stuff. x.x

Oh I'm pretty sure many female players feel the way you do.
These games are not developed with Female MC in mind.
All am saying is you either compromise, don't hang on the details you don't enjoy, or find better fits (unfortunately it's very limited).

On that note, It's not Non-adult RPGs don't have this problem.
What makes Mass Effect or Baldur's Gate 3 great, is the relationships / interactions are authentic, based on your gender.
The difference here, is they are way bigger studios that have different people working on different perspectives.
Any relationship building RPG that's just switching Pronouns are just lazy and lame games.

Also, you don't play a RPG just for the relationships, but you play a porn game for the porn, any mismatch will be so much more obvious and impactful.

I'm also curious what's the devs' thought for adding Female / FemaleMC into a gay focused game.
95% sure it's to approach bigger audience >> More exposure, More money.
It's a super common trend among porn games, and Lust Odyssey is especially Money Hungry.
I don't think it's something so shallow like "outside expectation".
But it might be indeed their own ambition: To make the game bigger.

Comment mistake of indie devs - Scope Creep. They need to realise that, there's only so much One Individual can do on their own

 

[MingeMaster]

Well having tried Lustful Desires it's actually a great example! Iirc when you make it to the first town, there's a guy who's clearly very into you, yet you - as a woman - are expected to pay them to have sex with you. I mean that's just not how it works. And that same small but critically important difference in people's attitudes, expectations, wording etc is everywhere. Most of it is barely nuance, but it's so ever-present that even then it's enough. I mean, I still FAR prefer that to the blatant misogyny most other games written by guys for guys seem to deal with. x.x Then again, even tho I'm a complete sub I'm not really into degradation, so maybe it's also that idk?

That instance never even crossed my mind because prostitution isn't a gender-specific thing, and Harold isn't a character that thinks like he can just sleep with anyone if he felt like it, in fact he's pretty surprised in dialogue when it gets brought up in a "you want to pay ME to sleep with YOU?" kind of moment. I don't remember every bit of dialogue, but I honestly don't recall him expressing any outward interest in the player at all until you're practically already in bed with him. Maybe he does so with high lewd fame or something? The reason paying him for it even gets brought up to begin with is because his wife does the same thing, and that naturally leads to suggesting it for him.

I don't know how far you've gotten in it, but just around that point of the game, Blake mentions that he normally isn't into woman if you drug him with a love potion, and various parts of Logan's dialogue is different for a female protagonist (I believe he likes you a bit more too?), and afaik the writing only improves as the game goes on. Again don't know how far you are, but there are a notable number of situations where the game is clearly written with female characters in mind, or at least favour a female character. For example the general writing surrounding Ste, notably, when the protagonist is mentioned to look like his deceased wife and is often compared to her (not sure what the male equivalent dialogue even is here). Another example is Groth, who regularly expresses interest in woman and has a fitting reaction towards female protagonists to reflect that. At other times, the opposite happens with Everett who very clearly prefers men, but the writing stays consistent and it's clear he doesn't really have much sexual interest in a female (or bottom male) character.

With that in mind, I just don't agree with the premise of your argument that this aspect is frequently ignored within the writing or that it's only made with men in mind, at least certainly not with LD. I believe Hyao (LD's Creator) has even stated in the past that he's happy to hear that a notable crowd of players enjoy the female content. I don't think it's done perfectly 100% of the time, but I don't think literally any game with optional gender does so regardless of it being lewd or not. And let's be real, even though this seems to be more of the core of your issue with it, female-specific writing isn't remotely limited to lewd stuff, so it isn't reasonable to exclude non-adult RPGs from this. Though these often aren't excluded outside of this realm of games regardless; I've seen the usual crowd arguing that female protags are a waste of resources in general. I remember these sorts "put in their two cents" prevalently when Persona 3 Reload understandably got major backlash for excluding the female protagonist, so I guess some of the crowd here aren't alone on that sentiment even outside of this community lol.

To give a clear answer to your initial question, yes I very much appreciate having the option to play a female character in these regardless of whether it's flawlessly implemented or not, though I rarely agree with "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kinds of approaches either way. I know you weren't trying to offend, but I hope you can see why implying that enjoying a feature that has intentionally always been in a game that I've been following since release (in an area of games that is frankly overwhelmingly male-centered) is "unfairly" drawing attention away from the allegedly starving primary audience (despite not changing the actual content itself), is actually pretty contemptuous. If you just personally don't like gender-neutral writing in general though, then that's entirely fair.

 

[MingeMaster]

Gay devs won't ever hav the perspective of a female MC.

They don't need to. I'm not sure if I would even want them to; one isn't required to be the thing that they're writing. Low-key the same energy as "woman can't write shounen", but we both know that isn't true.

Any relationship building RPG that's just switching Pronouns are just lazy and lame games.

I mean that's exactly what BG3 does with some exceptions? It's a very gender-neutral playersexual game, ironically probably even more so than the games we're discussing. I wouldn't be surprised if there were even less changes in normal dialogue, and it works just fine too; despite implications being made here to the contrary, woman aren't alien creatures that the writing needs to strenuously warp itself around to make work. This gender-neutrality very largely applies to Mass Effect (aside from romances) as well and virtually every game with optional gender. It's a bit ridiculous to berate these indie authors (especially Hyao) on games in-development when they either do the same thing these big name games do or arguably even do a better job of it, though I'm well aware of why that bias is being displayed here regardless.

Also, you don't play a RPG just for the relationships, but you play a porn game for the porn, any mismatch will be so much more obvious and impactful.

I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to imply, but both Lustful Desires and Lust Odyssey definitely have strong enough writing outside of lewd content that it's perfectly reasonable to play them primarily for the writing quality, in fact I'd say it sets them apart from other such games (not to downplay the lewd elements, but just saying). I recall Hyao himself has expressed that he also really enjoys doing non-lewd writing and sometimes gets burnt out on the lewd stuff.

I'm also curious what's the devs' thought for adding Female / FemaleMC into a gay focused game.
95% sure it's to approach bigger audience >> More exposure, More money.
It's a super common trend among porn games, and Lust Odyssey is especially Money Hungry.
I don't think it's something so shallow like "outside expectation".
But it might be indeed their own ambition: To make the game bigger.

Comment mistake of indie devs - Scope Creep. They need to realise that, there's only so much One Individual can do on their own

It isn't reasonable to harshly judge and assume why the author chose to make a choice that they've stuck with since the start of their game. They've stated that their inspiration includes games like ME, DA, and Cyberpunk that tend to have more player choices, so I assume they're just mirroring those. "Scope creep" implies making further additions to the game that weren't there or planned from the start, so that doesn't really apply here. You can accuse them of being too ambitious, but it's up to the author on how much effort and time they want to put into their project.

 

[Elo91]

That instance never even crossed my mind because prostitution isn't a gender-specific thing, and Harold isn't a character that thinks like he can just sleep with anyone if he felt like it, in fact he's pretty surprised in dialogue when it gets brought up in a "you want to pay ME to sleep with YOU?" kind of moment. I don't remember every bit of dialogue, but I honestly don't recall him expressing any outward interest in the player at all until you're practically already in bed with him. Maybe he does so with high lewd fame or something? The reason paying him for it even gets brought up to begin with is because his wife does the same thing, and that naturally leads to suggesting it for him.

I don't know how far you've gotten in it, but just around that point of the game, Blake mentions that he normally isn't into woman if you drug him with a love potion, and various parts of Logan's dialogue is different for a female protagonist (I believe he likes you a bit more too?), and afaik the writing only improves as the game goes on. Again don't know how far you are, but there are a notable number of situations where the game is clearly written with female characters in mind, or at least favour a female character. For example the general writing surrounding Ste, notably, when the protagonist is mentioned to look like his deceased wife and is often compared to her (not sure what the male equivalent dialogue even is here). Another example is Groth, who regularly expresses interest in woman and has a fitting reaction towards female protagonists to reflect that. At other times, the opposite happens with Everett who very clearly prefers men, but the writing stays consistent and it's clear he doesn't really have much sexual interest in a female (or bottom male) character.

With that in mind, I just don't agree with the premise of your argument that this aspect is frequently ignored within the writing or that it's only made with men in mind, at least certainly not with LD. I believe Hyao (LD's Creator) has even stated in the past that he's happy to hear that a notable crowd of players enjoy the female content. I don't think it's done perfectly 100% of the time, but I don't think literally any game with optional gender does so regardless of it being lewd or not. And let's be real, even though this seems to be more of the core of your issue with it, female-specific writing isn't remotely limited to lewd stuff, so it isn't reasonable to exclude non-adult RPGs from this. Though these often aren't excluded outside of this realm of games regardless; I've seen the usual crowd arguing that female protags are a waste of resources in general. I remember these sorts "put in their two cents" prevalently when Persona 3 Reload understandably got major backlash for excluding the female protagonist, so I guess some of the crowd here aren't alone on that sentiment even outside of this community lol.

To give a clear answer to your initial question, yes I very much appreciate having the option to play a female character in these regardless of whether it's flawlessly implemented or not, though I rarely agree with "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" kinds of approaches either way. I know you weren't trying to offend, but I hope you can see why implying that enjoying a feature that has intentionally always been in a game that I've been following since release (in an area of games that is frankly overwhelmingly male-centered) is "unfairly" drawing attention away from the allegedly starving primary audience (despite not changing the actual content itself), is actually pretty contemptuous. If you just personally don't like gender-neutral writing in general though, then that's entirely fair.

Thank you for this! I'm gonna give LD another chance!

Also, never even remotely meant to imply what you said in the end! My question was genuine and I really tried to spend extra effort for it to come out that way too. My intent was to express my support for gays and how focusing on that core content would give them a better experience, specifically if others felt like I did. I mean women undoubtedly have more options after all, so it would only be fair. That's all.

But I'm neurodivergent & non-english, so it's not like this was unexpected... apologies to everyone involved.

 

[MingeMaster]

You don't need to apologize, particularly since you're well-intentioned; I'm just expressing my thoughts from my own perspective (and had trouble doing it concisely without a giant wall of text lol).

I mean women undoubtedly have more options after all, so it would only be fair.

If you know of any VNs with this particular kind of content featuring female protagonists, I'm quite open to hearing suggestions, but that kind of thing is usually incredibly rare at best from my knowledge. :'p

 

[nackedsnake]

They don't need to. I'm not sure if I would even want them to; one isn't required to be the thing that they're writing. Low-key the same energy as "woman can't write shounen", but we both know that isn't true.

Yup, Not saying "They need to", But it'll never be as good as those have those perspectives.
That's why the more Experience a writer has the better the writing. That's also why "Theater Kid" be laughed upon.
"Woman can't write shounen", that's actually partially true.
They can write, but it will not be as good for those who cares, When you compare the best to the best.
In this case, Elo91, who's clearly not satisfied with the female perspective.
And if you ever play any YAOI and you pay attention to details, you will know the off-putting feeling.

I mean that's exactly what BG3 does with some exceptions? It's a very gender-neutral playersexual game, ironically probably even more so than the games we're discussing. I wouldn't be surprised if there were even less changes in normal dialogue, and it works just fine too; despite implications being made here to the contrary, woman aren't alien creatures that the writing needs to strenuously warp itself around to make work. This gender-neutrality very largely applies to Mass Effect (aside from romances) as well and virtually every game with optional gender. It's a bit ridiculous to berate these indie authors (especially Hyao) on games in-development when they either do the same thing these big name games do or arguably even do a better job of it, though I'm well aware of why that bias is being displayed here regardless.
--------
I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to imply, but both Lustful Desires and Lust Odyssey definitely have strong enough writing outside of lewd content that it's perfectly reasonable to play them primarily for the writing quality, in fact I'd say it sets them apart from other such games (not to downplay the lewd elements, but just saying). I recall Hyao himself has expressed that he also really enjoys doing non-lewd writing and sometimes gets burnt out on the lewd stuff.

Yeah BG3 probably not a good example, I was thinking about Companions' gender.
But ME clearly Handles MC Gender Excellently in the Relationship aspect, for When Gender Matters.
But There are other times when Gender Doesn't / Shouldn't Matter, what's wrong with Gender-neutrality there?
This also add to the "People play porn game for the Porn" part, cuz regarding Porn, Gender always matters.

Not sure why you put so much emphasis on "Because they are Women", while I was saying "Because they are lacking necessary experience / perspective / information". Why you are so Hang on "Being Women" or not?

Aslo, You can say "LD / LO are good games that you would play even without porn" however you want,
But the fact only people who play PORN game know them speak for itself.

It isn't reasonable to harshly judge and assume why the author chose to make a choice that they've stuck with since the start of their game. They've stated that their inspiration includes games like ME, DA, and Cyberpunk that tend to have more player choices, so I assume they're just mirroring those. "Scope creep" implies making further additions to the game that weren't there or planned from the start, so that doesn't really apply here. You can accuse them of being too ambitious, but it's up to the author on how much effort and time they want to put into their project.

"Scope Creep" does NOT stand for "making further additions", it means want to do things they can't practically handle, AKA poor Project management.
Almost all newbie will have this problem, cuz they lack experience to know what is achievable.

Not sure why you are trying to white-knight devs, while
I was merely explaining why these happens, never try to undermine the devs for what they have done.
Tho you / them need to understand what they CANT do, (and that's OK)
Instead of telling others What they are feeling is wrong, or they Shouldn't feel that way. (What you tried to do with Elo91)

 

[Ano85]

I feel like I gotta mention that BG3 falls into the same category that treats a gay player like a misgendered woman. DOS2 does the same as well, and I assume most games that do playersexual stuff will continue to stay this way. You literally cannot be a top, unless it's a fade to black image and you headcanon it, which is probably the best case scenario. (sadly)

I think I remember Mass Effect Andromeda had different dialogue and flirting depending on whether you played Scott or Sarah. At least with Jaal's romance I remember that the dialogue changed quite drastically in some parts. Even the sex scene was a bit different. Jaal sucks mad dick, so much so MRyder had to sit up during it...

 

[MingeMaster]

Yup, Not saying "They need to", But it'll never be as good as those have those perspectives.
That's why the more Experience a writer has the better the writing. That's also why "Theater Kid" be laughed upon.
"Woman can't write shounen", that's actually partially true.
They can write, but it will not be as good for those who cares, When you compare the best to the best.
In this case, Elo91, who's clearly not satisfied with the female perspective.
And if you ever play any YAOI and you pay attention to details, you will know the off-putting feeling.

I think different kinds of people will make different kinds of stories within the same genre. For example, I don't actually like it myself, but FMA is considered to be one of the best shounen series, which is made by a woman. Obviously it is very largely a male-made genre, but I'm just saying this isn't an absolute or strictly necessary thing. Mind you, you agree that Mass Effect is an example where the writing surrounding the female protagonist is executed well, but that was written by 5 men (1 lead writer and 4 supporting writers), and then was written by even more men in ME2. Unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't until ME3 that there were any female writers on the staff at all.

Not sure why you put so much emphasis on "Because they are Women", while I was saying "Because they are lacking necessary experience / perspective / information". Why you are so Hang on "Being Women" or not?

I'm focusing on that because the topic right now is concerning female protagonists, especially in games they aren't "meant" to be in.

In regards to them being adult games, I'm not trying to downplay its significance, I'm just emphasizing that their writing is on a level that, imo, puts a lot of non-lewd stuff to shame, so it shouldn't be surprising if players have a "came for the porn (pun intended), stayed for the story" experience with them.

Not sure why you are trying to white-knight devs, while
I was merely explaining why these happens, never try to undermine the devs for what they have done.
Tho you / them need to understand what they CANT do, (and that's OK)

Sorry (sincerely) if I'm coming on too harshly, and it's fair to give out criticism where appropriate (I myself have done so in this thread), but if authors I really like get unfair criticism then I'll defend them for that, and a lot of what is being said here isn't reasonable imo. Hyao (and his supporting writers) in particular is an author who I've followed since he popped up and who I appreciate a lot, so I'll admittedly "white-knight" a bit for him if I feel it's appropriate.

Instead of telling others What they are feeling is wrong, or they Shouldn't feel that way. (What you tried to do with Elo91)

No offense but that's a bit rich coming from someone who has often said something along the lines of "don't like it, don't play it" when people have brought up personal complaints (reasonable or otherwise) in the past. Regardless, I never said they're not allowed to feel that way, I literally ended off my post saying exactly the opposite. What really bothers me is the implication that the more "niche" side of the audience (of which I am a part of), that has been there since the start along with everything else, are a waste of resources that should "move over" for the "primary" audience, and I'm not apologizing for or changing my mind on that, ever.

 

[sparrow_rose]

"Woman can't write shounen", that's actually partially true.
They can write, but it will not be as good for those who cares, When you compare the best to the best.

I think different kinds of people will make different kinds of stories within the same genre. For example, I don't actually like it myself, but FMA is considered to be one of the best shounen series, which is made by a woman. Obviously it is very largely a male-made genre, but I'm just saying this isn't an absolute or strictly necessary thing.

Oh, good. You brought it up for me, cause I instantly thought of FMA when they were all like women can't write shonen as good as men. And I personally love FMA, I think it's one of the best shonens ever. I put it up there with One Piece, lol.

 

[nackedsnake]

I think different kinds of people will make different kinds of stories within the same genre. For example, I don't actually like it myself, but FMA is considered to be one of the best shounen series, which is made by a woman. Obviously it is very largely a male-made genre, but I'm just saying this isn't an absolute or strictly necessary thing. Mind you, you agree that Mass Effect is an example where the writing surrounding the female protagonist is executed well, but that was written by 5 men (1 lead writer and 4 supporting writers), and then was written by even more men in ME2. Unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't until ME3 that there were any female writers on the staff at all.



I'm focusing on that because the topic right now is concerning female protagonists, especially in games they aren't "meant" to be in.

In regards to them being adult games, I'm not trying to downplay its significance, I'm just emphasizing that their writing is on a level that, imo, puts a lot of non-lewd stuff to shame, so it shouldn't be surprising if players have a "came for the porn (pun intended), stayed for the story" experience with them.



Sorry (sincerely) if I'm coming on too harshly, and it's fair to give out criticism where appropriate (I myself have done so in this thread), but if authors I really like get unfair criticism then I'll defend them for that, and a lot of what is being said here isn't reasonable imo. Hyao (and his supporting writers) in particular is an author who I've followed since he popped up and who I appreciate a lot, so I'll admittedly "white-knight" a bit for him if I feel it's appropriate.



No offense but that's a bit rich coming from someone who has often said something along the lines of "don't like it, don't play it" when people have brought up personal complaints (reasonable or otherwise) in the past. Regardless, I never said they're not allowed to feel that way, I literally ended off my post saying exactly the opposite. What really bothers me is the implication that the more "niche" side of the audience (of which I am a part of), that has been there since the start along with everything else, are a waste of resources that should "move over" for the "primary" audience, and I'm not apologizing for or changing my mind on that, ever.

Funny you act all high and might, then proceed to be passive aggressive, and twisting my words.
"Don't like it, don't play it." means it's not the game for you, you either compromise to ignore the part you don't enjoy, or move on.
How does That conflict of what I said, "Knowing what you are lacking, Instead of telling others What they are feeling is wrong, or they Shouldn't feel that way" ?
In fact, that's one of the factor if a person enjoy a game or not.
No matter how you claim otherwise, You tried to "Correct" Elo91 of her feeling.

Maybe I shouldn't use Men / Women such a wide brush, instead just focus on talking about Experience / Perspective / Information.
But that's cuz you brought it up in the first place, so I just carelessly followed.
It's True People gain those differently, gender ain't always one of the factor, even tho in general it is, there are always outlines.
Gender is just such sensitive topic, some people always took it so much more of an issue when it doesn't matter.

Regarding the shounen stuff, Funny you deliberately ignore What I said, When you compare the best to the best.
No matter how you Champion FMA, it's never the same level to the likes of Dragon Ball, Berserk, Jojo.
Personally I think the 2003 Anime is great, but the Manga itself is quite lacking. And I don't think it's "Widely regarded as one of the best".

"Came for the porn, stayed for the story" Doesn't mean it's a good game, just means it's serviceable.
Again, The fact only people who play PORN game know theses speak for itself.
Tho can't blame you for not knowing better.

Not sure where you get this "Females are shovelware that's merely wasting resources" from my post,
when I were merely Explaining to Elo91 why she feels the game is lacking on the Female Perspective.
"Afterthought" doesn't' mean it couldn't be there since Version 1.
Surely you are not Projecting??

But it seems I stroke a nerve that You acted so defensive and took it personal. So I will just stop here.