- Jun 1, 2019
- 427
- 2,093
Laura and Ari return in Ch4
Wish I could bring more Laura to be honest...
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- Thread starter CircleGames
- Start date
- Dec 11, 2021
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ngl i forgot about Laura, need to see that milf take BBC
- Feb 9, 2021
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finally someone critical of update pace.. i agree for ai games there is expectation to complete new version faster then hand drawn art.. i think first new version it was released much faster?? then as soon as it got popular on patreon dev speed slowed way down lolWhat's Up Doc?
Do you know if the developer has mastered the AI generation process? (From what we know, this is their first game.)
When you compare it to 3D work, are you comparing it to a new developer or to a team that has already released several games?
What I mean is that comparisons aren’t always fair… I just think we should be a bit more patient and supportive for a first game, that’s all...
nickrotund, either you’re still a naive youngster, or you’re living on another planet!
Just so you know, when you start a project, you’re working 200% on top of a job that’s already taking up 30 to 60% of your time. Why? To create enough engagement on social media and get your Patreon up and running.
Then, you catch your breath because 200% is not sustainable for long. Sometimes, you even take a break to avoid burning out. After that, you pick things back up at a pace that works for you, more or less balancing it with your day job. At this point, the goal is to grow your Patreon enough to eventually quit that job and fully focus on your passion and make a living from it.
The problem is, this stage is stressful because it’s uncertain: How do I organize this new life? Will my followers support me enough so I can pay the bills? A thousand questions keep running through your mind 24/7.
Then, if your Patreon grows, you take on more work because now you’re managing a Premium Patreon community that you can’t ignore. And of course, you’re still trying to stay connected with your base, but you have less and less time for that.
Eventually, you start thinking about outsourcing certain things—code, art, writing, translations—because the project is getting bigger, you’re making enough money to afford it, and ultimately, it’s better for you and your communities.
But all of this only works out if everything goes smoothly! So you have to remember, things can go wrong at any step…
And then it can spiral out of control. And if you’re not good at handling pressure and stress, you could lose it and run off with the cash…
And that’s the worst-case scenario...
So for the impatient ones out there, go support your favorite project, even if it’s just on the lowest tier. Follow multiple projects if you want to fap more than once every 6 months and stay chill, especially if you see that the project is still alive and kicking. And that’s the case here!
Just so you know, when you start a project, you’re working 200% on top of a job that’s already taking up 30 to 60% of your time. Why? To create enough engagement on social media and get your Patreon up and running.
Then, you catch your breath because 200% is not sustainable for long. Sometimes, you even take a break to avoid burning out. After that, you pick things back up at a pace that works for you, more or less balancing it with your day job. At this point, the goal is to grow your Patreon enough to eventually quit that job and fully focus on your passion and make a living from it.
The problem is, this stage is stressful because it’s uncertain: How do I organize this new life? Will my followers support me enough so I can pay the bills? A thousand questions keep running through your mind 24/7.
Then, if your Patreon grows, you take on more work because now you’re managing a Premium Patreon community that you can’t ignore. And of course, you’re still trying to stay connected with your base, but you have less and less time for that.
Eventually, you start thinking about outsourcing certain things—code, art, writing, translations—because the project is getting bigger, you’re making enough money to afford it, and ultimately, it’s better for you and your communities.
But all of this only works out if everything goes smoothly! So you have to remember, things can go wrong at any step…
And then it can spiral out of control. And if you’re not good at handling pressure and stress, you could lose it and run off with the cash…
And that’s the worst-case scenario...
So for the impatient ones out there, go support your favorite project, even if it’s just on the lowest tier. Follow multiple projects if you want to fap more than once every 6 months and stay chill, especially if you see that the project is still alive and kicking. And that’s the case here!
- Jul 3, 2021
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You do realize that each release had more images and content than the one prior, right? It's not even been 2 months since the last update, and CG said he wants to release the next Chapter around Halloween, meaning it's pretty much the same dev time as Chapter 03. Do you expect more content in less time? I'd say the time required for an update is pretty much connected to the amount of images produced, which also goes hand-in-hand with the amount of writing and postwork. So yeah, more content = more time.
You could complain if he took more time for less content, but that is not the case, so what you're saying is nonsense.
Would love some examples of good quality hand drawn art games releasing updates more frequently. The ones I follow need several months, in most cases much longer compared to CG's release schedule. You're very welcome to prove me wrong. Also, creating good AI images takes time. It can take hours to get a single usable image as AI has a built-in RNG factor on how your images come out. You only have so much control over it, and it often requires postwork in photoshop to, for example, remove extra fingers or other body parts. You can obviously increase the AI scale (regulates how much the AI is supposed to follow your prompt, or vice versa giving the AI more room to do it's own thing), but too high of a value can and will negatively impact the image. Anyway, you might wanna play around with AI yourself to see what I mean. It really is not that simple.
See the above paragraph. Easier? Potentially. Faster? Absolutely not. Maybe in 2 years from now, but currently creating good AI images takes a lot of time. I'd argue it takes more time than creating renders using DAZ+Blender as those tools allow you to do exactly what you want without having to pray to the RNG gods. I can only repeat myself. Go get yourself familiar with A111 Stable Diffusion, or even play around with AI on civitai if you're running a potato rig. You can create 50 images and not get 'THE ONE' if you're unlucky, especially if you want a certain outcome with more than 1 character. It also gets increasingly more difficult with higher resolutions and more elements on-screen, but people don't know that unless they use AI themselves.
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- Jan 7, 2021
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I have no experience with 2d drawing so not gonna talk about it, but as someone who has experienced both creating ai images with stable diffusion and creating&rendering 3d scenes in daz studio, ai art is definitely faster and easier. The important point is to train the model and lora's well(if you are not using fully ready-made materials). Once trained, your job is clearly simpler. The part until it is trained can be a bit of a headache(like inconsistency between images), but since this is not the developer's 1st or 2nd update, I think he has overcome that part.
As for the system(rig), the developer has a 3090 and should be able to see previews very fast. So even if he has to do some trial and error, he should be doing it pretty fast.
I would like to state again that I have no offensive feelings against anyone. If the developer was not already doing his job well, he would not have reached so many supporters in such a short time. There are a lot of AI games out there and honestly 90% of them are crap. This is not one of them and I like it a lot. Like I said, the only thing I want to point out is the update intervals. I hope we wait less in the future.
- Jul 3, 2021
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Like I told the other guy, one can't expect faster updates when each update is getting bigger with more content. I mean, that's a pretty simple math.
I don't know how much experience we're talking here, but a trained model+loRA does not change the RNG factor of AI, no matter how good a prompt/negative prompt you may use. It's not about inconsistency with the look of your characters, which is what trained models/loRA's basically get rid of, it's about having a vision of what you want the image to look like and what your AI is spitting out. There simply is an RNG factor involved which is why sometimes you generate dozens of images until you get what you want, plus postwork. And as I said in my previous post, upping resolution, multiple characters and other elements make it ten times more difficult.
Oh, and let's not forget about story, writing, coding, proofreading, playtesting. I'd say 2 month development cycles are a pretty fair amount all things considered. Don't get me wrong, I'd hope that CG does not increase the amount of images/size of his Chapters every time, because then we'd eventually end up with 6 month devcycles. There should be a solid middle ground imo.
As for creating renders; Creating images in DAZ have 1 major timesink, which is setting the scene up with all your assets, lighting, characters and whatnot. Once that's done, you're basically left posing characters and changing facial expressions depending on what you want to portray during the scene. And you can do that with pinpoint accuracy, no RNG involved. If I wanna render a couple images in DAZ, I know exactly what I'm gonna get. Doing the same thing with AI can have endless variations requiring you to generate tons of images.
I'd argue that's also why, as you've mentioned, 90% of AI games are kinda crap. Because devs just go with whatever the AI spits out. Well that, and clearly most of them have no clue how to prompt (which might very well be a language barrier seeing how lots of those games have more than scuffed English writing). CG seems to be spending much more time carefully picking out images aswell as investing time into postwork.
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Well erm that.... and the actual rendering lol. Which no matter what the hardware is I'm confident an equivalent system will spit out ai images faster. Sure, some factor of those images are waste and can't be used.... still, I don't buy the overall argument of ai game production being as cumbersome as people are making it sound. Furthermore, a lot games in this style seem to heavily benefit from lowered expectations in the anime culture for total images. 400 renders total for three updates of a daz game would be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Whereas with the above norm, you'll see "30 new CGs!" Wow. Such UPdate.
As it pertains to MNGF, as a non-sub I'm a little surprised at the lack of speed on updates, but obviously arent entitled to anything else. I would have expected the next update by now, but it's also not months behind schedule *cough tori* - so no big deal, it'll get here when it gets here.
Though I very much agree with nickrotund above, there's this bizarre acceptance of slower production with a greater number of customers. That'd be understandable with real world material goods and supply chains, with digital goods it just means bad management. No intellectual-property-producing business on earth should have an inverse relationship between production speed and revenue.
- Dec 11, 2021
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- Jul 3, 2021
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Rendering is in the single digit minutes range with a good rig. That's not the time sink.
Yes, you will spit out more images with AI in the same amount of time, but adjusting poses in DAZ is a matter of minutes and you'll get the result you want, whereas AI image creation can take forever until you get 1 image you want to use. That's my point. Might wanna try for yourself before you decide to buy or not to buy it.
30 CG's? Yeah I mean if we gonna make up numbers to make it look worse, okay dude.
You're agreeing with something that doesn't make any sense. He's complaining about longer devcycles when the updates are getting bigger every time, so obviously you can't expect faster updates when there's increasingly more content. It's not acceptance of slower production with more customers, it's acceptance of slower production due to bigger updates.
Like I said before, I'd understand the criticism if CG were to release less content in more time, but that's not the case. He's been, so far, pretty consistent. The only thing that changed since the beginning are peoples expectations because they really enjoy the game. So suddenly it can't go fast enough, and if it doesn't meet their liking they start making up nonsense.
Edit: Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you guys... It only irritated me when nickrotund came around saying that development used to be faster, and with popularity and money it changed, which clearly it didn't. It was less images in less time, now it's more images in more time. Simple as that. With that said, I'm out. Somehow always end up in these arguments and then a mod comes around the corner handing me the banhammer. No, thanks.
Cheers!
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The entitlement of such people.Rendering is in the single digit minutes range with a good rig. That's not the time sink.
Yes, you will spit out more images with AI in the same amount of time, but adjusting poses in DAZ is a matter of minutes and you'll get the result you want, whereas AI image creation can take forever until you get 1 image you want to use. That's my point. Might wanna try for yourself before you decide to buy or not to buy it.
30 CG's? Yeah I mean if we gonna make up numbers to make it look worse, okay dude.
You're agreeing with something that doesn't make any sense. He's complaining about longer devcycles when the updates are getting bigger every time, so obviously you can't expect faster updates when there's increasingly more content. It's not acceptance of slower production with more customers, it's acceptance of slower production due to bigger updates.
Like I said before, I'd understand the criticism if CG were to release less content in more time, but that's not the case. He's been, so far, pretty consistent. The only thing that changed since the beginning are peoples expectations because they really enjoy the game. So suddenly it can't go fast enough, and if it doesn't meet their liking they start making up nonsense.
Edit: Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you guys... It only irritated me when nickrotund came around saying that development used to be faster, and with popularity and money it changed, which clearly it didn't. It was less images in less time, now it's more images in more time. Simple as that. With that said, I'm out. Somehow always end up in these arguments and then a mod comes around the corner handing me the banhammer. No, thanks.
Cheers!
You keep ignoring greater revenue though. Like i get it, totally, games get more complex and that slows things down...I'm reasonable and understanding that. What gets under my skin is when any discussion or even recognition of greatly increased profitablility gets swept under the carpet. That's what makes posts like these sound so shill-like to me. It's a BIG DEAL if your product last month made 100 bucks, and this month it's making 4000 bucks. In those 2 cases, the way your business operates on a day to day basis shouldnt even resemble each other.Rendering is in the single digit minutes range with a good rig. That's not the time sink.
Yes, you will spit out more images with AI in the same amount of time, but adjusting poses in DAZ is a matter of minutes and you'll get the result you want, whereas AI image creation can take forever until you get 1 image you want to use. That's my point. Might wanna try for yourself before you decide to buy or not to buy it.
30 CG's? Yeah I mean if we gonna make up numbers to make it look worse, okay dude.
You're agreeing with something that doesn't make any sense. He's complaining about longer devcycles when the updates are getting bigger every time, so obviously you can't expect faster updates when there's increasingly more content. It's not acceptance of slower production with more customers, it's acceptance of slower production due to bigger updates.
Like I said before, I'd understand the criticism if CG were to release less content in more time, but that's not the case. He's been, so far, pretty consistent. The only thing that changed since the beginning are peoples expectations because they really enjoy the game. So suddenly it can't go fast enough, and if it doesn't meet their liking they start making up nonsense.
Edit: Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you guys... It only irritated me when nickrotund came around saying that development used to be faster, and with popularity and money it changed, which clearly it didn't. It was less images in less time, now it's more images in more time. Simple as that. With that said, I'm out. Somehow always end up in these arguments and then a mod comes around the corner handing me the banhammer. No, thanks.
Cheers!
Anyway I'll try and not monopolize this discussion - feel free for people who want to talk legit gameplay stuff to chime in
If it makes you feel any better I often also get posts struck which were written in an otherwise reasonable tone when arguing with some REEE AVOIDABLE types..
- Dec 7, 2021
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The issue with pocket watching Devs is that many do not consider that if the Dev has been putting in the work he felt warranted $4,000 from the start, and that's with him working at max efficiency there's not a lot he can do to improve. The speed in which an update comes out doesn't increase as the dollar amount increases. So working 40-60 hours a week and getting $100, won't really change your output once you start making $4,000 as you were already doing your best from the start. The only slight changes would only come from hardware upgrades and once that takes place any possible increases in efficiency will stagnate unless there's some software updates that can assist like a new version of SD or something that can drastically cut image gen times. So if they are already working with high-end hardware/software , how does more money increase production?You keep ignoring greater revenue though. Like i get it, totally, games get more complex and that slows things down...I'm reasonable and understanding that. What gets under my skin is when any discussion or even recognition of greatly increased profitablility gets swept under the carpet. That's what makes posts like these sound so shill-like to me. It's a BIG DEAL if your product last month made 100 bucks, and this month it's making 4000 bucks. In those 2 cases, the way your business operates on a day to day basis shouldnt even resemble each other.
Anyway I'll try and not monopolize this discussion - feel free for people who want to talk legit gameplay stuff to chime in
If it makes you feel any better I often also get posts struck which were written in an otherwise reasonable tone when arguing with some REEE AVOIDABLE types..
- Dec 11, 2021
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That's a fair point if that's indeed what's going on. You have a more optimistic guess of their time spent though than I do. Shrug, maybe you're right, no way to know.
- Dec 7, 2021
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There's still validity to what you speak in certain cases though. For example, if this Dev says he's only doing this part time, but then after he makes a certain amount he states that he's now making enough to warrant quitting his job to work on this game full-time. Then once the change happens, the updates come out at the same pace, with the same amount of content or even slower, with less. I can definitely see subs being concerned about their financial support being taken advantage of in that case, and it's happened a number of times already.
arguing about subscription fee/money in a pirate website is extremley ironic....
i dont think it is necessary to argue a lot about this kind of thing if the Dev hasnt release a new chapter in 1 month or there is a slight change of the update cycle.
if you dont statisfied with how the Dev do their job or felt being lied to, just cancel your subs and only sub if there is a release for newer chapter or just wait for public release.... easy
if you think it is normal and want to subs or support the Dev, go ahead.
talk about patreon being leech or not, every subscription based early access AVN/VN is literally has some kind "leeching its patreon" kind of nature even the most popular one like eternum.
you dont like it? wait for the game to be finished in maybe... 3,4 or 6 years later... that is the reality of every subscription based early access AVN/VN
i dont think it is necessary to argue a lot about this kind of thing if the Dev hasnt release a new chapter in 1 month or there is a slight change of the update cycle.
if you dont statisfied with how the Dev do their job or felt being lied to, just cancel your subs and only sub if there is a release for newer chapter or just wait for public release.... easy
if you think it is normal and want to subs or support the Dev, go ahead.
talk about patreon being leech or not, every subscription based early access AVN/VN is literally has some kind "leeching its patreon" kind of nature even the most popular one like eternum.
you dont like it? wait for the game to be finished in maybe... 3,4 or 6 years later... that is the reality of every subscription based early access AVN/VN
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- Jan 4, 2024
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I agreeJust let the Dev cook
Maybe the amount or quality of content in this update is more or better than the previous ones—who knows? No one knows. When we don’t know, we can’t judge So, we should wait, play it, and then we can judge
Personally, I prefer higher quality over higher quantity
That means if updating every four months (instead of one month) brings four times more pleasure, I’d definitely prefer the four-month update
I said these things so the developer knows that he’s not alone, and the majority agree with his work approach.