Need a legal advice on incest and age of consent

madtwilek

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Hello guys, could someone please help me with an advice?

In the past, I thought the gamedev commonly assumes the age of consent is 18 y.o. (because usually you see this explicitly mentioned in NSFW games and they all are 18-centric).
But then there's a Crusader Kings, which is not an NSFW game at all and is totally legal on Steam, but where a 16 y.o. can routinely marry their mother or impregnate their 16 y.o. sister.

So the question is - where does the 18 y.o. rule come from? Is it originally specific to US (as I would assume) and then propagated to the rest of the industry?
What is the particular area of its application? Is it specific to the nudity and explicit graphic content, or does it apply to the textual content as well?
Like, if mentioning (but not portraying in an explicit graphic way) a rape of a 14 y.o. happening in the background would be a legal issue?
Is it still an issue if it is clearly marked as a crime in-game?
Alternatively, is an impregnation of a 14 y.o. (without an explicit mentioning of the sex act) by a player a legal issue? Etc.
Is incest only a problem for Patreon, or a broader legal issue?

(For the record: I'm writing a design doc for a noir game featuring no explicit graphical nudity at all, but there are planned some textual sex and crime events happening with the MP and especially in the background).

PS Sorry, English is not my native language.
 

anne O'nymous

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Note: I'm not a lawyer, just someone with some knowledge


But then there's a Crusader Kings, which is not an NSFW game at all and is totally legal on Steam, but where a 16 y.o. can routinely marry their mother or impregnate their 16 y.o. sister.
Steam have a really strange approach of content moderation, and it's possible that they are unaware of the issue ; it wouldn't be the first time they strike with delay.


So the question is - where does the 18 y.o. rule come from? Is it originally specific to US (as I would assume) and then propagated to the rest of the industry?
It depend what you mean by "the 18yo rule".
Is it the age of the characters, or the "you must be older than" mention ?

But well, I guess that you talk about the character age, and there's two possible reasons behind this:

Firstly the age of consent, that is the age below which you can not have sex ; modulo a possible Romeo and Juliette exception (if both are below the age of consent and really near in age). Globally speaking, on a world wide side the average is 16yo.
Secondly the sexual majority, that is the age below which you can not be involved with sexuality (watch porn, do porn, works for porn business, prostitute yourself, etc.).

I guess that originally the "all characters are above 18yo" mention come from a copycat of European porn movies warnings. It is here to confirm that the characters are old enough to be porn actors/actresses.
But well, in a game the characters are fictitious, so they can perfectly be younger, as long as the are above the age of consent.


What is the particular area of its application? Is it specific to the nudity and explicit graphic content, or does it apply to the textual content as well?
It's a really vast and complicated question ; partly because the answer depend on the country.


Like, if mentioning (but not portraying in an explicit graphic way) a rape of a 14 y.o. happening in the background would be a legal issue?
It depend. And it would depend even if you portray it.
Of course they never would be full graphic, but an ads against child sexual abuse who would portray this kind of event, in order to raise awareness on the problem, would be legal. Even a character saying that he did this in is past wouldn't necessarily be illegal.
Everything depend on the intent behind the mention/depiction. If it's a denunciation, there 85% chance that it would be legal, but if it can be seen as an apology, there would be 85% risk that it would be illegal.

As usual when it come to the legality of something, there's no generality and it's always a case by case situation.


Is it still an issue if it is clearly marked as a crime in-game?
There people voluntarily doing the apology of what they know to be a crime and that they clearly announce as being one. As I said above, it's complex. The intent matters, but it's not the only element that will be took in account to judge the legality.
It's not because you'll name a video where someone rape a 14yo girl, "don't do this, it's a crime", that it will magically become legal to broadcast the video.


Alternatively, is an impregnation of a 14 y.o. (without an explicit mentioning of the sex act) by a player a legal issue?
Unless you're God, the sexual act is implicit due to the impregnation. It's not because you do not mention it that it do not exist. Therefore, unless the age of consent is 14yo or below, yes it would be a legal issue.


Is incest only a problem for Patreon, or a broader legal issue?
Incest is a legal everywhere in the world. Even in countries where it's legal, it's still a legal issue because this legality is conditioned to a level of kinship, age, the obvious notion of consent, and possible restriction (no breeding, no marriage, or in the case of Italy no scandal).
 

GNVE

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Well trouble is that no-one here is a lawyer (at least that we know of) let alone a lawyer in your country. the 18yo rule has to do with lots of things.

- First off getting paid. Visa and Mastercard are very strict and careful when it comes to sexual content. If they refuse to process your payments your fucked. This leads to porn producers, Patreon and others to be even more careful to not piss off either Visa or Mastercard.
- Second there are laws in pretty much all countries against CP. Depending on the wording the law might not even allow non-real depictions of CP.
- Third there is the age of consent. Again it differs per country but I think all (western) countries draw the line at or before the age of 18.
 

anne O'nymous

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- Second there are laws in pretty much all countries against CP. Depending on the wording the law might not even allow non-real depictions of CP.
Regarding this, in countries like Australia and France, even a major can be sanctioned by the laws against CP. The laws are wrote in such way that it don't just address minors involved in sexual act, or nude depiction of minors. The laws address minors and people looking like minors.
Therefore, if you're a petite 25yo girl with small boobs, small hips and still a youthful face/look, you can not do nude photography nor porn. And I guess that it would also apply for the cliché 600yo vampire in loli games.
 
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GNVE

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Firstly the age of consent, that is the age below which you can not have sex ; modulo a possible Romeo and Juliette exception (if both are below the age of consent and really near in age). Globally speaking, on a world wide side the average is 16yo.
Secondly the sexual majority, that is the age below which you can not be involved with sexuality (watch porn, do porn, works for porn business, prostitute yourself, etc.).
Yeah this is really complicated. Just for the Netherlands it is 16 but also 18 and sort of 12 as well. All depending on who what where when and how.

Regarding this, in countries like Australia and France, even a major can be sanctioned by the laws against CP. The laws are wrote in such way that it don't just address minors involved in sexual act, or nude depiction of minors. The laws address minors and people looking like minors.
Therefore, if you're a petite 25yo girl with small boobs, small hips and still a youthful face/look, you can not do nude photography nor porn. And I guess that it would also apply for the cliché 600yo vampire in loli games.
Yes you are right. Thanks for clarifying. It was among the broad strokes I meant to paint :)
 
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anne O'nymous

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Yeah this is really complicated. Just for the Netherlands it is 16 but also 18 and sort of 12 as well. All depending on who what where when and how.
France isn't really better, just less confusing. The age of consent is 16yo, but the Law also say that below 15yo it's impossible that you gave your consent ; both intended "outside of Romeo and Juliette exception".
Therefore, there's a full year when you can consent, but it would still be illegal. And due to the Romeo and Juliette exception, you can still legally consent when you're below 15yo, as long as your partner is at most one year younger or older than you.

And, to stay on topic, this explain the "all characters are 18yo or above". With some exceptions (there's few countries where the age of consent is above 18yo) it ensure that the acts you'll depict are without doubt legal.
 
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peterppp

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But then there's a Crusader Kings, which is not an NSFW game at all and is totally legal on Steam, but where a 16 y.o. can routinely marry their mother or impregnate their 16 y.o. sister.
in crusader kings you have a couple of profile pictures marrying, extending the family tree. it's not much more than a statistics and it's based on historical practices. there is nothing lewd or nsfw about it. there is no reason for patreon or steam to ban it.
 
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Hagatagar

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First of all, I am also not a lawyer.

Like anne O'nymous already wrote, the "everyone is 18" is to assure consumers that the actors/actresses are old enough to do it.
However, if there is no illegal interactions this is moot (this also includes if there aren't real people involved), legal media featuring real minors in such situations exist in abundance.


It is not easy to make a general statement about how such situations with (fictional) minors are seen, as it depends on the individual situation.
But what's important is the intent, intensity and the context of the events.

Is the intent of the scene to arouse the player or to disgust the player? (Sexual) glorification of such things is always a red flag, no matter what medium it's portrayed in.
And does the perpetrator get what he deserves in the end (as in being punished)?

How intensively is the event portrayed/described? A mere reference like in a crime report is something different than a detailed telling.

What's the context of the events. Is the intercourse the result of a consummation of marriage in medieval times, where such a thing was quite common, or of a "mutual" or forced partnership in modern times?


However, services such as Patreon have much stricter approaches (sometimes a zero-tolerance), as they are also just a pawn of the credit card institutions (who also only act according to the laws imposed on them).


But what's really important is: If you want REAL legal advise, ask a REAL lawyer, not some horny people on the internet. ;)


in crusader kings you have a couple of profile pictures marrying, extending the family tree. it's not much more than a statistics and it's based on historical practices. there is nothing lewd or nsfw about it. there is no reason for patreon or steam to ban it.
True, but you can also actively participate in such things and will also get narrative events. Interacting with these things is much more than just weaving a family tree tapestry.
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But what is important with that is, that it's not really being described and is presented in a reather matter-of-fact way.

Besides, Paradox games are very popular (and profitable) and Steam is surely hesitant to alienate a such a publisher. :unsure:
 
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peterppp

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True, but you can also actively participate in such things and will also get narrative events. Interacting with these things is much more than just weaving a family tree tapestry.
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But what is important with that is, that it's not really being described and is presented in a reather matter-of-fact way.

Besides, Paradox games are very popular (and profitable) and Steam is surely hesitant to alienate a such a publisher. :unsure:
i haven't played the game so i didn't know to what extent it was described, so thank you for the clarification.
 

rayminator

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I am not a lawyer. but you have search for what you have asked you would found the answer
incest = illegal all over in world (that I know of)

age of consent depends in which country that you live in

Canada


United States
 

anne O'nymous

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incest = illegal all over in world (that I know of)
There's a lot of countries where it's legal, with generally three limitations: both must be consenting adults (being over the age of consent isn't enough), you can't marry, and you can't have children.
Starting there, like I said in a previous post, there's variations. Mostly, it regard but not limits to, the degree of separation. In some countries it's legal starting direct relatives (parents/children and sibling), for some it need more separation, or a, hmm... "hierarchy level" ; being legal for cousins, but not for aunt/nephew by example.

There's also the case of countries that have defined their Law in such way that it's "illegal except...". This coming from the fact that what isn't forbidden by Law have to be seen as legal by default.
By example, in Germany incest is legal between persons of same sex, because the Law define incest as being a vaginal intercourse. And in Ireland it's legal between indirect relatives (aunts/uncles, and of course nieces/nephews, or cousins), because it's defined as being a sexual intercourse between linear ancestries.

If you should only remember one, pick the funniest one, Italy. To keep it short, incest between consenting adults is legal in Italy... unless it provokes a public scandal.
And if you want to know more, the is relatively complete.



But regarding the topic, it's what GNVE said that must be kept in mind and serve as reference.

The issue here isn't what the Law say, but what global morality want. Incest being too often linked to p*d*shit (because the medias talk about it only when a child is abused), incest isn't a topic that one want to be involved with. And when "one" is your payment processor, it's better to comply without trying to argue.
 

coffeeaddicted

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There's a lot of countries where it's legal, with generally three limitations: both must be consenting adults (being over the age of consent isn't enough), you can't marry, and you can't have children.
Starting there, like I said in a previous post, there's variations. Mostly, it regard but not limits to, the degree of separation. In some countries it's legal starting direct relatives (parents/children and sibling), for some it need more separation, or a, hmm... "hierarchy level" ; being legal for cousins, but not for aunt/nephew by example.

There's also the case of countries that have defined their Law in such way that it's "illegal except...". This coming from the fact that what isn't forbidden by Law have to be seen as legal by default.
By example, in Germany incest is legal between persons of same sex, because the Law define incest as being a vaginal intercourse. And in Ireland it's legal between indirect relatives (aunts/uncles, and of course nieces/nephews, or cousins), because it's defined as being a sexual intercourse between linear ancestries.

If you should only remember one, pick the funniest one, Italy. To keep it short, incest between consenting adults is legal in Italy... unless it provokes a public scandal.
And if you want to know more, the is relatively complete.



But regarding the topic, it's what GNVE said that must be kept in mind and serve as reference.

The issue here isn't what the Law say, but what global morality want. Incest being too often linked to p*d*shit (because the medias talk about it only when a child is abused), incest isn't a topic that one want to be involved with. And when "one" is your payment processor, it's better to comply without trying to argue.
Interesting and true. I checked.

Another "did not know" is that in France it seems lawful. Meaning, there isn't a law that forbids it. In an article from the MDR (Mittel Deutscher Rundfunk) states, that it was abolished in 1810. So it seems also in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands.

This leads to very confusing generalization.

I know that in Germany the thinking behind is reproduction problems. So anal and oral are ok.

Not that i ever wanted it. I think most people don't really get aroused by their relatives.

In any case, the US is something else.

So where does that leaves us then? Is the US law, the law of the planet?
Though you can break rules. I doubt you will get in legal troubles, except here. In Germany it will land on the index, which makes it unavailable officially to the public. Like Doom or any other bloody game.
 

madtwilek

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Thank you guys, that was really a great exchange and quite a few interesting points to ponder over.

Interacting with these things is much more than just weaving a family tree tapestry.
This very event was actually one of the major WTF moments I had playing CK3.

Therefore, if you're a petite 25yo girl with small boobs, small hips and still a youthful face/look, you can not do nude photography nor porn.
This is an excellent example of something I'd have never thought about tbh.
Also country-specific definitions of incest legality (Italian in particular) is an example of why the multiculturalism is so important, lol.

But what's really important is: If you want REAL legal advise, ask a REAL lawyer, not some horny people on the internet. ;)
Definitely. However, at this (early planning) stage I'm looking more for an advice based on a specific knowledge and specific gaming experience. I mean, one can always drop some gameplay features or a plot elements in question, just to stay on a safe side (and this is what a lawyer would likely recommend anyway). But, before doing that, I'd really like to try and understand where the threshold is, and why e.g. a CK3 incestual threesome is (apparently) not a problem at all.
And no lawyer-next-door would provide anywhere near as much insight as you guys do.

Last but not least, I'd thank Hagatagar for an idea of a structured approach (intent, intensity and the context): even tho these categories likely not belong to the legal field, they are still helping to refine the development prios and find alternative means of conveying the facts to the player.
 

GNVE

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So where does that leaves us then? Is the US law, the law of the planet?
Generally it is the strictest large wealthy market. Usually the EU sometimes the US. (The EU's laws are generally stricter than the US). Businesses generally don't want to miss out of providing their products to a large market like the US or the EU. It is hard to have SKU's for each separate market so usually the strictest laws win and are implemented by a business globally. (A lot of laws have also been copied by from the EU to other countries. those other countries effectively outsource their legislation to something the EU is very good at.
 

anne O'nymous

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Another "did not know" is that in France it seems lawful. Meaning, there isn't a law that forbids it.
It's not exactly that.

I'll not tell precisely, because I haven't read our (I'm french) different codes since a really long time, so my memory isn't necessarily precise, and anyway laws can have evolved since. But globally speaking it's split in different laws and not directly addressing incest by its name. By example among the different laws regarding marriage, there's normally one prohibiting it between relatives ; it regard incest, but don't talk about incest.
To my knowledge the only time the notion of incest appear is as aggravating circumstances in case of sexual abuse on minors. It then goes further than blood relatives and also include step-parents and guardians. I kind of remember that legislators wanted to also define as implicit abuse any sexual intercourse between relative if one is minor, but I'm not sure that it was finally adopted.


In an article from the MDR (Mittel Deutscher Rundfunk) states, that it was abolished in 1810. So it seems also in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands.
People tend to underestimate the influence that Napoleon had over Europe.
Having integrated many countries into his Empire, when he reformed justice and, among other thing, defined a new penal and civil codes, it applied de facto in those countries too. And must be said that he (well, the guys who did it for him) did a relatively good job. He established France second penal code in 1810, and it's only in 1994 that France rewrote it entirely, adopting its third penal code. It was obviously updated thousands times in between, but the base was good enough to stay for near to two centuries. And anyway it's not really an obsolescence that lead to the rewriting, but more a question of consistency. When you pass two centuries adding/removing sentences, there's a moment when it become a big mess.
This quality also mean that even among the European countries that never felt under the Empire influence, many used French Laws as base for their owns.


I know that in Germany the thinking behind is reproduction problems. So anal and oral are ok.
Like in fact many countries.
It's not precisely true, but one way to differentiate between countries who made incest illegal due to genetic risks, and those who are doing it due to moral issues, is to look at what is considered as incest. If it just regard blood related, it's generally mostly because of genetics. But if it include step-relative, you can be sure that it's for moral reasons before anything else.


Not that i ever wanted it. I think most people don't really get aroused by their relatives.
I don't know to which extend it's true, but I remember a study saying that our DNA is coded in such way that our brain can differentiate between pheromones of relatives and of strangers. I guess that it's like for our physical appearance, that make us looks like our parents and sibling, and our pheromones smell a bit like theirs. Then, like they play a big part in our lust, this prevent us to lust for them and to fall in love with them. But in the same time, pheromones aren't the only reason why we love someone and/or want to have sex with this person. So, incest can still happen.
Said otherwise, we aren't excited by our relative because our brain recognized them as "out of reach", but sometimes what is "out of reach" is what we will want the most.


So where does that leaves us then? Is the US law, the law of the planet?
No but yes ?

Would you have asked this twenty years ago, I would have answered "no but". Meaning that US Law don't define the Law of the planet, but since it's one of the biggest market, if you don't comply to their Law, you'll never become a big world wide company.

But nowadays Internet changed everything. Even if you are an European company who don't care about the US market, you can at anytime face a boycott campaign influenced by the US Law, and sometimes even started by peoples who don't have access to your product because living outside of Europe.
And like in the same time you need Internet to sell at least a part of your production, you fall more than ever under the rules of the payment processors. With direct sales it's not a problem, it's a bank to bank process, and you can pay/be payed with something else than debit/credit cards. But with Internet the payment processors are more involved in the process and therefore they can totally mess with your business, this whatever the size of your company.

So, de facto US Law became world's Law. Either you follow them, or you'll be an outlaw with all the risks that it imply. Except that here the risks aren't legals but financials.
It's why both China and Russia have their own version of everything, including payment processors. But it's something less possible outside of those countries. The European Community is big enough to do the same if it wanted, but in the same time it need the US to sell what it product and buy what it need. Same for countries like Australia, Japan, South Korea, and so on.
As long as you sell something, even if it's just a service like Patreon by example, following US Law is the only way to be effectively successful.


In Germany it will land on the index, which makes it unavailable officially to the public. Like Doom or any other bloody game.
This is, once again, due to the way German Law is wrote. It qualify video games as toys, and then boom... You wouldn't present blood and killing to a 6yo child, yeah ? So it can't be in video games.
Still I kind of remember that it already changed a bit. But I don't really follow closely German Law, so I can't tell for sure.
 

anne O'nymous

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Sorry for the double post.

(The EU's laws are generally stricter than the US).
Yes and no. EU's Law is stricter than US ones when it come to the obligation, but tend to be more lax than them when it come to individual rights ; with "individual" being to see in a broad sense.

In the US you can name "cheese" something that don't even have milk in it. Something that would never happen in EU, that probably even define what minimal percent of milk is needed to be legally named "cheese". But in the same time (and modulo protection of minors, of course) in the EU you can picture a naked girl in your packaging, what would surely not be possible in the US.
 
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GNVE

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Yes and no. EU's Law is stricter than US ones when it come to the obligation, but tend to be more lax than them when it come to individual rights ; with "individual" being to see in a broad sense.
I couldn't find it before but I was talking about " ". So more generally than our niche.

I don't know to which extend it's true, but I remember a study saying that our DNA is coded in such way that our brain can differentiate between pheromones of relatives and of strangers. I guess that it's like for our physical appearance, that make us looks like our parents and sibling, and our pheromones smell a bit like theirs. Then, like they play a big part in our lust, this prevent us to lust for them and to fall in love with them. But in the same time, pheromones aren't the only reason why we love someone and/or want to have sex with this person. So, incest can still happen.
Said otherwise, we aren't excited by our relative because our brain recognized them as "out of reach", but sometimes what is "out of reach" is what we will want the most.
Warning the following two statements are half remembered from a documentary I watched a couple of years ago. Might not be fully accurate :)
I think it has to do with our Immune system. You can smell the others pheromones that are linked to the immune system and we generally find people less interesting if their immune system is too similar to our own. (though hormonal based birth control might have an impact on this).
It also has to do with growing up in close proximity to others. You are less predisposed to be sexually attracted to people you grew up with. (Which is why you see a lot of stories floating around the internet about people finding out they are long lost cousins after introducing their SO to their family.)
 
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coffeeaddicted

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I couldn't find it before but I was talking about " ". So more generally than our niche.


Warning the following two statements are half remembered from a documentary I watched a couple of years ago. Might not be fully accurate :)
I think it has to do with our Immune system. You can smell the others pheromones that are linked to the immune system and we generally find people less interesting if their immune system is too similar to our own. (though hormonal based birth control might have an impact on this).
It also has to do with growing up in close proximity to others. You are less predisposed to be sexually attracted to people you grew up with. (Which is why you see a lot of stories floating around the internet about people finding out they are long lost cousins after introducing their SO to their family.)
I think the EU laws supposed to unify European laws.
Not sure if the EU laws have a far reaching effect on countries outside the EU borders. If i am honest, i never even thought about it.

I can't explain how this works really in biological terms but i think anne O'nymous explained it very well.
When your a kid, you parents are (mostly) the most beautiful people you ever met or the relatives that you'll see. But becoming older that changes.
I think nature doesn't want you to get sexually engages with family but rather spread your semen to others so that the survival of your genes are secured, so to speak.
It is the same with the fact that we are not made to stay with one partner for life but rather look for more mates down the line. The only thing that keeps us from not doing that, is moral.
So you are fighting urges with moral.
I think the incest theme is in so far a fantasy, as people like to imagine to actually have a sister or a mom look like a bombshell when in reality, people look much different to that fantasy.
It's just my take on that topic.

Thanks for the Brussel effect. I wasn't aware of it so i learned something new. :)
 

FemDom Fables Studios

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I think the best "workaround" around patreon rules against fictional incest is to let players decide if and how the secondary characters are related to the MC.



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