[S-Play tester] [S>Proofreader] Unpaid Need help with female/lesbian content?

[Kattlarv]

Wasn't entirely sure if this fit better here or tutorials. But tutorial seemed more aimed at coding.
So went with here. If there's a better location, please let me know.

Anyhow: I have been around here and several other sites. And I have noticed that a lot of people have issues when it comes to non-male content.
So, with over a decade of experience and having worked on several games either advisory or directly. I'd like to offer some tips and tricks about the matter.
And if you'd like a more in depth chat about your specific project: That is fine too.

What I come across a lot, is people having a lot of issues with their female characters. Or being completely clueless about them. (People also can't tag properly, but that's a separate issue xP)
One of the most common ones: Is including lesbian content, that serves no purpose being in the game. Outside of "It's supposed to be there".
In the same way I'm sure you've seen certain systems be in games they have no reason to be in. Outside of "other games in [genre] have them.".

So, I'd like to start with elaborating answers on some of the most common questions I repeatedly get asked over the years.

Spoiler: FAQ

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Though: Also feel free to ask weird anatomy questions. Not always relevant. But: In case you don't want to use porn logic


Skills:
- Mainly in playtesting, writing, storyboarding, character design and grammar checking. But in this case: The main focus is on female characters and scenes focused on females, rather than featuring.
Considering I get a lot of "I normally don't like lesbians, but!" on my content. I do feel I got a good enough grasp on this.

Preferred method of contact:
- Here or discord.

Employment Type & Rates:
- I can look over your work and/or answer questions. But don't expect me to read through 90 pages of stuff.
Free. Unless you'd want me heavily involved.

Availability:
- Most days. UTC+1

Work Samples:
- I've worked on quite a lot of things. Including fics, art and games. I think one of my more notable ones are my Lord Dominator femdom animations.
I can link my AO3 for simplicity to keep it short.

You must be registered to see the links

Additional comments:
- While I can offer additional services. The primary focus here is on how you can improve your female content. But I'd be open to branch out if needed.


Let me know if I did any derps while posting. Been a while.

 

[Houtamelo]

Do you give advice for female - monster content?
My team is making a game where the two/only characters are girls and there's basically no men in the game, just monsters.

Still, developing their personalities is very important and my ears are always open for advice.

 

[Kattlarv]

Do you give advice for female - monster content?
My team is making a game where the two/only characters are girls and there's basically no men in the game, just monsters.

Still, developing their personalities is very important and my ears are always open for advice.

Sure.
I have some experience with monster/beastiality content.

 

[M$hot]

This sounds interesting and probably quite useful. What I wonder about, when should one get in contact with you regarding a playtest? When there's a few pages of script or when a 0.1 is essentially done? I'm currently working on a small game involving a male MC, 4 women, 2 men (you won't be sleeping with the men) and some NPCs.

I kind of want to balance instant attraction with a somewhat realistic escalation ladder (Between going 'damn, she's hot' and sharing the bed there's gotta be some content, it's not a brothel game) and have some stepping stone characters (You befriend one female character so you can get the scoop on the one you really want) and how you can write it to be engaging yet don't have players feel too bad dumping her to 'move up'.

Anyway, before I just write a whole essay, I should first just get my answer. Would your help be more useful in the shaping stages of the personalities or once there's a 0.1 essentially ready for you to look over? With such a generous offer I certainly don't want to be wasting your time.

Thanks in advance for reading my message

 

[Kattlarv]

This sounds interesting and probably quite useful. What I wonder about, when should one get in contact with you regarding a playtest? When there's a few pages of script or when a 0.1 is essentially done? I'm currently working on a small game involving a male MC, 4 women, 2 men (you won't be sleeping with the men) and some NPCs.

I kind of want to balance instant attraction with a somewhat realistic escalation ladder (Between going 'damn, she's hot' and sharing the bed there's gotta be some content, it's not a brothel game) and have some stepping stone characters (You befriend one female character so you can get the scoop on the one you really want) and how you can write it to be engaging yet don't have players feel too bad dumping her to 'move up'.

Anyway, before I just write a whole essay, I should first just get my answer. Would your help be more useful in the shaping stages of the personalities or once there's a 0.1 essentially ready for you to look over? With such a generous offer I certainly don't want to be wasting your time.

Thanks in advance for reading my message

You can get in contact with just some script.
Heck, a "character card" alone works. (I have an example in case you don't know what those are.)
I do think offering advice early would be easier. As then you have a stepping stone to go from. And wouldn't have to backtrack in case you'd go in a "oops" direction.

For the example you gave, one of the simpler solutions would probably be to give her either an interest you can help with. And/or a personality that aligns with that. Such as: She is after a macguffin, and the MC is open with his intentions. And helps her obtain the macguffin in exchange for the scoop. Or: You can a similar angle, but have her sexually selfish. Ie: "If you want the information, you gotta do something for me~" in a potentially one sided scene. If the genre allows for it.


On a side note: Using the "cumslut" archetype is perfectly fine in many situations. But it should fit the tone of the game in case you use it. There are more "tame" versions of the archetype. But as said: It entirely depends how "serious" the game is intended to be.

I can also mention: The main issues I come across is that people often follow the archetypes used in all media for women. And they are either 1: "Wants to pleasure men". (Either for financial or social gain. Or "because I don't have a dick.") 2: "Wants to get pregnant." Or 3: "Ice queen". Which severely limits the characters goals and reach.

Another common trope is trying to portray the girl as "horny", yet: All she does is like: Suck 10 dicks, cum 0 times. Yet goes "That was amazing!". So a quick, on the fly tip I can give is: Swap the gender roles if you are unsure if a scene would work.

 

[M$hot]

You can get in contact with just some script.
Heck, a "character card" alone works. (I have an example in case you don't know what those are.)
I do think offering advice early would be easier. As then you have a stepping stone to go from. And wouldn't have to backtrack in case you'd go in a "oops" direction.

For the example you gave, one of the simpler solutions would probably be to give her either an interest you can help with. And/or a personality that aligns with that. Such as: She is after a macguffin, and the MC is open with his intentions. And helps her obtain the macguffin in exchange for the scoop. Or: You can a similar angle, but have her sexually selfish. Ie: "If you want the information, you gotta do something for me~" in a potentially one sided scene. If the genre allows for it.


On a side note: Using the "cumslut" archetype is perfectly fine in many situations. But it should fit the tone of the game in case you use it. There are more "tame" versions of the archetype. But as said: It entirely depends how "serious" the game is intended to be.

I can also mention: The main issues I come across is that people often follow the archetypes used in all media for women. And they are either 1: "Wants to pleasure men". (Either for financial or social gain. Or "because I don't have a dick.") 2: "Wants to get pregnant." Or 3: "Ice queen". Which severely limits the characters goals and reach.

Another common trope is trying to portray the girl as "horny", yet: All she does is like: Suck 10 dicks, cum 0 times. Yet goes "That was amazing!". So a quick, on the fly tip I can give is: Swap the gender roles if you are unsure if a scene would work.

Thanks for the quick and comprehensive response!

I would like an example of a character card so I can bring accurate info, thanks

Was personally leaning towards the MC only being honest with himself, since she wouldn't willingly give the scoop but you can simply use her as a way to get within proximity you otherwise couldn't. So yeah, you're a bit of a prick since you're using her, but she's not meant to find that out. However, even if the relationship isn't meant to last long, I'd still want it to be a somewhat realistic seduction. After a few weeks and you getting the information you need, you arrange for her to be offered a dream opportunity on a different continent. So you'd have a solid reason for breaking up, neither party is the bad guy, you have something in common with your target and a decent in. So she'd be a good girl that just isn't willing to give up a dream opportunity for a 3 week old relationship, which is fair.

And I kind of wanted to write her as a smart, kind and passionate person. (Passion not restricted but also not excluded from the bedroom). So wouldn't really be a cumslut, just a woman that enjoys mutually pleasurable sex, she's not going to squirt from giving a blowjob or anything. She doesn't fall within either of those archetypes so that's something at least. I kind of want to write her as a woman that doesn't need the MC to be happy or even to get off but does appreciate you being in her life. Which imo goes better with a somewhat sandboxy setting, that she doesn't get super clingy and angry if you spend 3 in game days doing other stuff.

I am not entirely sure what you mean with 'swap the gender roles'. Do you mean picture a guy giving head to 10 women, not having an orgasm and going "That's amazing"? Because yeah, that doesn't work either.

You are not a good guy in this game, you spend weeks to months manipulating all the aspects to open a road that you may not be worthy of walking by the time you unlock it. But I've seen too many MCs that are a bit milquetoast and LI that only live for your cock.

Should we maybe continue this in DMs as to not dirty up your thread? I'm fine continuing here so up to you.

Thanks again

 

[Kattlarv]

Thanks for the quick and comprehensive response!

I would like an example of a character card so I can bring accurate info, thanks

Was personally leaning towards the MC only being honest with himself, since she wouldn't willingly give the scoop but you can simply use her as a way to get within proximity you otherwise couldn't. So yeah, you're a bit of a prick since you're using her, but she's not meant to find that out. However, even if the relationship isn't meant to last long, I'd still want it to be a somewhat realistic seduction. After a few weeks and you getting the information you need, you arrange for her to be offered a dream opportunity on a different continent. So you'd have a solid reason for breaking up, neither party is the bad guy, you have something in common with your target and a decent in. So she'd be a good girl that just isn't willing to give up a dream opportunity for a 3 week old relationship, which is fair.

And I kind of wanted to write her as a smart, kind and passionate person. (Passion not restricted but also not excluded from the bedroom). So wouldn't really be a cumslut, just a woman that enjoys mutually pleasurable sex, she's not going to squirt from giving a blowjob or anything. She doesn't fall within either of those archetypes so that's something at least. I kind of want to write her as a woman that doesn't need the MC to be happy or even to get off but does appreciate you being in her life. Which imo goes better with a somewhat sandboxy setting, that she doesn't get super clingy and angry if you spend 3 in game days doing other stuff.

I am not entirely sure what you mean with 'swap the gender roles'. Do you mean picture a guy giving head to 10 women, not having an orgasm and going "That's amazing"? Because yeah, that doesn't work either.

You are not a good guy in this game, you spend weeks to months manipulating all the aspects to open a road that you may not be worthy of walking by the time you unlock it. But I've seen too many MCs that are a bit milquetoast and LI that only live for your cock.

Should we maybe continue this in DMs as to not dirty up your thread? I'm fine continuing here so up to you.

Thanks again

Np. I try

Sure, I can share one with you.

I'll shift to DM, but I'll reply with some broad advice here.
That does overall sound like a fine plan. It does give enough "carrot" for the character to leave. Possibly a bit over the top, depending on what pull the PC has. Or, if he's just lying about it xP But yeah, as said: It does give an incentive.

And that type of character isn't hard to write tbh. It's basically just to not make them a narcissist.

And yes: Just literally change the roles.
It's a VERY simple writing advice. As said: Not as relevant advice if making a porn logic game. But in broad strokes, it's a solid one. As: If you think you have an idea for a scene: Just change everyone's gender, and play out the scene. If you go "... This is stupid as fuck. Why would he do that?", then that would be a good sign that said scene maaay need a revamp xP

And playing a "not good guy" isn't an issue.
Though, as you mention: A LOT of them are very... "wet blanket" Gary Stu's. Completely useless guys, that succeed regardless. And their sole personality trait is that they got a hyper dick.

 

[Kattlarv]

Got a DM question I can elaborate on here in detail:

Spoiler: Q&A

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[DiolTwee]

I had an indepth conversation with Kattlarv about the focus of my project and really helped me rethink the ins and outs of my game!
Absolutley a professional and knows the important stuff!
I can't Thank enough Kattlarv for the super useful advices and time spent helping me!

 

[Houtamelo]

I had an indepth conversation with Kattlarv about the focus of my project and really helped me rethink the ins and outs of my game!
Absolutley a professional and knows the important stuff!
I can't Thank enough Kattlarv for the super useful advices and time spent helping me!

I'm on the same boat, she clearly knows what she's doing and has helped us a lot as well!

 

[Kattlarv]

Got another question:

Spoiler: Q&A

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Kattlarv]

Got a question/discussion via DM:

Spoiler: Q&A

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Gwedelino]

Quite an interesting and rare thread.

I'm currently working on a game that have both a Female PC and a huge focus on lesbian content.

I naturally think that I'm doing it well, but that's always a good idea to get the point of view of someone who's an outsider.

Would be nice to have you play-testing my game once it's ready for a first release if you're willing too of course.

 

[Dracula Belmont]

Hello I heard I can here get waifu for free so uhm wanna see my castle?

 

[Kattlarv]

Quite an interesting and rare thread.

I'm currently working on a game that have both a Female PC and a huge focus on lesbian content.

I naturally think that I'm doing it well, but that's always a good idea to get the point of view of someone who's an outsider.

Would be nice to have you play-testing my game once it's ready for a first release if you're willing too of course.

Sure. You could add me on discord, or DM me here. Whichever you prefer.

We are generally our own worst critic, since we are so used to something we do. So it can easily slip through the cracks. (Like the classic: "Why do people hate character X? They have SUPER good reasons for their actions." and: Forgetting that you haven't revealed those reasons to anyone yet

I should have time to playtest. But yeah, hit me up with questions, here, in DM or whatever you prefer.

 

[Kattlarv]

Well, a lot of people weirdly found this helpful on discord, so I'll include it here:
People may zone out when making characters, based on gender. Ie: Sexualizing the female character, and thus glossing over potential OOC. While they don't sexualize the male character. Thus OOC is more notable.
For example: Not realizing you have a VERY poor Raven, but noticing your Cyborg is lacking some depth. Now, this won't be relevant if you just want to do "braindead sluts" parody type game where all girls are identical. But if you want moderate or more story or IC, this can be useful to double check. The time honored "genderbend them" is effective here. If the scene makes 0 sense if you rule 63. Then you may need to look it over. Especially depending what tone you are after.

Similarly, if you are including content you don't really care about. Like how action trailers include only the good parts for 3 seconds to catch your attention. And most the movie is just crap. Do a similar experiment to the R63. To use the discord example: If you have a 1 minute animation. With 2 seconds of cunnilingus. Test if you would be okay with 2 seconds of fellatio. And, if not: Should you just cut it? Increase it? Move it? Or see if there's too much grind to get that scene. And overall: Does it add anything to the scene? Or is it just there to be there?

 

[Kattlarv]

Man I've been busy the last few days xD
Seems I accidentally opened Pandoras box again.

Long story short: Had quite a few discord talks. And had another conversation with the dual male protag maledom game dev.
And some of my contacts suggested that it could be a good exercise example to show here.

So: Take a look if you're interested in reading about the porn genital roles, along with how futas fit in there.
Note: I'll use objective simplified terms, as to not have to make it twice as long to explain each part. But, could elaborate if some part completely confuses. But, hopefully it should be clear enough. Like, if I say "can't", it mainly refers to "very unlikely" or overall "You'd have to look hard to find an example".)

Spoiler: Q&A

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[user220]

hi, thanks this topic feels as pool of tips and tricks. I plan to read it whole these days.

My point of view would be that aside the fact that most devs are males, and it's easier for male to understand/grasp/portrait his sexual fantasy, it's also easier to visualy show the male singlular finish compared to female multiple orgasms.

Now, I want to quote you with a follow up question:

Another common trope is trying to portray the girl as "horny", yet: All she does is like: Suck 10 dicks, cum 0 times. Yet goes "That was amazing!". So a quick, on the fly tip I can give is: Swap the gender roles if you are unsure if a scene would work.

How would define that 10 males to 1 female gangbang on the perfect balance? I agree, having/allowing men to cum over in row or simuntaneously, does not provide a visual satistfaction for the female. However, what would be best way to attain orgasm (textually and visually) so it would be fair? Different poses, leveling the sex scene so it would trigger smaller orgasms, giving control to the female to choose what happens next or organizing her fuckers?

And to go back on start of your topic, definitely slapping two lesbians to a game won't work, without proper context/story/purpose. My approach would be to persuade to have a threesome where either the same scene can move towards introduction of more lesbian behavior, or the male can be excluded, or/and either of the females had a college experience with a girl, and she liked it. Will that be a good approach?

And lastly, which would be your questions you'd like to hear our pov on it? If any ofc :}

 

[Kattlarv]

hi, thanks this topic feels as pool of tips and tricks. I plan to read it whole these days.

My point of view would be that aside the fact that most devs are males, and it's easier for male to understand/grasp/portrait his sexual fantasy, it's also easier to visualy show the male singlular finish compared to female multiple orgasms.

Now, I want to quote you with a follow up question:



How would define that 10 males to 1 female gangbang on the perfect balance? I agree, having/allowing men to cum over in row or simuntaneously, does not provide a visual satistfaction for the female. However, what would be best way to attain orgasm (textually and visually) so it would be fair? Different poses, leveling the sex scene so it would trigger smaller orgasms, giving control to the female to choose what happens next or organizing her fuckers?

And to go back on start of your topic, definitely slapping two lesbians to a game won't work, without proper context/story/purpose. My approach would be to persuade to have a threesome where either the same scene can move towards introduction of more lesbian behavior, or the male can be excluded, or/and either of the females had a college experience with a girl, and she liked it. Will that be a good approach?

And lastly, which would be your questions you'd like to hear our pov on it? If any ofc :}

Thanks. I've done my best to compile questions, osmosis and whatnot.

Quick note on that: The "Multiple orgasms" is more of a "feature" than a requirement.
Which, ironically: Is done MORE with males than females. There's easily at least 500 times more content where a male has multiple orgasms in the same scene, than a female has even one, or more orgasms. The refractory period doesn't really exist for the "hyper dick dude that is useless at sex" in porn xP
It's about just as easy/hard to do a singular finish for a female.

-

As for a gangbang: That is a scene that is by nature, "unfair"/uneven or one sided. Depending on theme, it may be more or less skewed. Like, one of my favoriters: Gloryholes, are by design; one sided. You can technically work around that. But, it's one of those things kinda assumed.
But, to get back to the gangbang: First off: The context matters. If its rape, or she is paid to do it. She likely doesn't have sexual interest in the act. Which would make any orgasm "accidental". If it is willing, and for... some other reason: It depends on the reason, and partners. But by default, they are for the men, not woman. Or as Zone himself puts it "The girl is merely an accessory, so that I can show off all the cool cocks.". If you wanted to include orgasms for her, then I'd probably go for around ~3. Since on average, women last twice as long as men. But there are ~3 times as many men. (If most/all orifices are used. Depends how you split it up. Spitroasts would be ~5.) But, that is assuming the guys aren't useless at sex. And does stuff like: Gives a reach around or similar.
>
If they are bad at sex, I'd say maybe one orgasm out of "excitement", assuming she is into that. A 1-1 orgasm ratio would be very weird for a gangbang. Unless she suffers from premature orgasms or something? But yeah... there are ways to include the girl. Squirting, leg shakes, internal view with the contractions. But it's quite impossible to make it "fair" or focused on the girl as... it's by default not the intention of a gangbang. As it is to showcase all the males getting off. (Unless you make a lesbian gangbang... but then the intent is still on the participants, not the "target" or how to put it.) Like, the goal IS to showcase all the ones fucking the target, to cum. Often bukkake wise. I don't think anywhere in porn history, a gangbang has ever been about the girl and her needs. I know a harem versions exist, but then its a male, and about how each girl has to take turns pleasuring him xP But it's a slight oxymoron to try and make a gangbang "fair", if that makes sense.

As for lesbian: If you make both girls bisexual, it could work. This is an example where a "role reversal" works great. As: If you played a straight guy, and invited a gay/bi guy and a straight girl to "experiment". Most straight male players would do a blunt "I am NOT sucking his dick.". While glossing over that is the exact same position for a lesbian character.
HOWEVER: I could suggest here, to take one of the most dumbass porn tropes (that I've even made a few memes about xP I forgot if I can post memes, especially as it's not exactly thread relevant xP) and make it actually realistic. That being the "Guy who is useless at sex, dicks a lesbian straight". trope. I'm sure you've all seen it. You have a lesbian. Guy fucks her. Fails at making her cum a single time. And then she goes "Omg! That was THE best sex!". Which, as we all know: If a girl fucked a guy, came and left him cold turkey. Most guys would be VERY offended at that prospect xD
>
Slight side tangent: This could as said be a good chance to make an actually competent guy. While it would have the opposite start. It more also line up more with what most male players want to unlock. (And also: Make sure the lesbian content isn't shit, so its worth playing through xP) Start off with one of the girls being a bit of a mare. (counterpart to "stud") And she has a heavily female leaning bisexual friend. Could throw in some backstory with potential mistrust to men. Or, possibly even a "lesbian". But that would be threading a bit close. Anyhow: Have the "mare" convince both the guy and girl for a threesome. And have the guy prove he isn't worthless at sex, naturally. Like: Maybe start with a spitroast, mare in middle. Go to maybe: The girls make out, while the guy eats out the "lesbian", ease her into it. Then have reverse cowgirl anal, with the girls scissoring. Stuff like that. And you can work your way up to dual BJ or swapping places of the girls... or possibly even freely so the guy can get spitroast, I'm not judging xD But yeah, in general: Apply the "What's in it for me?" rule of human greed. Quite many forget this applies to humans, and not just men xP Like: Might need to offer the girl a double beej herself before she's willing to join in giving one for the guy. One at each labia~

Wrapping up: Well... one question I can ask if you have considered giving the girls any traits, goals or similar?
One common example in fantasy is how the males all have unique penises. While, often the girls do not. And just share a copy pasted pussy. So, they by default have nothing to "show off". In quite many situations, this is replaced by their boobs. But, those lack "oomph" as it just boils down to size, at best. And human pussy alone varies WILDLY. And heck: If not going porn logic, being able to squirt is a like, 50-50 chance. So that could be a point of pride/shame for a girl.
Or in terms of goals: One game I wrote for, that was cancelled, one of the girls you found out; She has a gloryhole obsession. And then you find out the school has a secret gloryhole. (Plot twist: It's not her.) But if you keep exploring, you find out that she is trying to invent a female glory hole as "I'M horny too! Why do boys get to have all the fun?!"
So, yeah. Got any plans on how to make the girls stick out outside of the standard "I need money/fame."?

 

[user220]

well that wasn't a quick recap. I hope you had succesful writings (in games or books/stories) to keep your gears on.

I haven't worked on a game yet, so there isn't any context, nor story behind it. Just following the topic and raising questions from the things written by others.

True, gangbang term implies about gang banging something, not individual getting vast fantasies.

You are right, cold turkey isn't best thing to experience. What's the point of having a dick if it's not working? Abstinence happens to most males, after certain age, but during the peak of masculinity it's the worst enemy to have.
I was thinking more forward keeping everyone happy, male and females orgasms in their own style where due the male being exhausted and going to sleep, the lesbian fun can continue.

What type of gloryhole would work? Some sort of jigsaw puzzle where female can organize her own challenges based on size, color, type, structure of the dicks? Something having a unique patter to ride on (starting with small and thin, moving toward black and thick, ending with strong and big that can withstand multiple cums? Hole limits, diameter to fill up thickness, some sort of glass material to prove strongess, wall thickness to justify lenght reach.

As mentioned before, i'm far from making my game, but out of the blue I'd say since fame and money are pretty common and oversaturated, so having a female fantasies (if that's right approach ofc) would be the focus. Things like public hidden sex, adrenaline quickie in airplanes, changing rooms, behind curtains, maybe variations of clothes fantasies (feathers, cotton, latex, leather, etc..) since most of females feels good around materials, right?

Most of the f2p games have male protagonist and female characters that you need to level up/teach/explore to their max. So focus in on the females more than on the male.