Negative decision consequences

[Deleted member 1121028]

At the end of the day acknowledging that the player made a choice is really the big takeaway when it comes to games. The path may be linear, but they got to fill in the details.
That said, if you want replayability, the choices in your game should absolutely have some lasting impact on the experience. Unfortunately this takes more creative effort in VN's than any other genre due to how constrained the players are.

 

[recreation]

One thing I like to do (and haven't seen often) is changing dialogues or even character behavior depending on decisions made earlier. It's an easy way to make decisions meaningful without the necessity to do a lot of extra render. You can basically change the whole topic of a conversation without adding a single additional render.

 

[anne O'nymous]

But this isn't real life, right?

Of course, but when the game try to be realist, then doesn't he need to be it even for this ?
I don't say that all games should works like that, but it don't surprise me when they do, and I'll not dislike them solely for this.

If you had full control over what your character says and the other characters around you reacted in an emotionally satisfying/realistic way I could understand, but what you generally get is a series of "square/circle" answers that either fit the shape the dev intended or they don't. Saying, "I hate fags" I feel like is kind of a good example, the player basically know this answer will have negative consequences because it's a telegraphed choice (which makes it sort of pointless to include it, imo).

That's the main point of the problem. The consequences of a choice matters, but the offered options matters equally.
What was an author thinking while giving such choice ? Few players will choice this option, and most of those who'll do it, will do it only once, to see if choices really have consequences. But, perhaps more importantly, what was the player expecting while picking it ? It's obvious that the answer will not be, "great, come take my ass, starting now I'm your dirty anal sex slave".

I think that it's more the fear to write a simple kinetic novel, than anything else. Some kind of, "I'll give them choice, this way they'll see my story as being an effective game". But then, they've to face the truth, if you give choices, you've to take count of them ; at least for a time, the story will not be the same if you kiss the girl, and if you don't. Which obviously imply more works on the story, and more complexity to make the game.
Therefore, some (too many) authors goes for the easiest solution. Either they make totally obvious choice, knowing that 99% of the players will follow them, and that the other will perhaps complain about a lack of constancy but it doesn't matter, it's only 1% of them. Or they go for the game over solution ; you don't need to write a variation where the MC haven't kissed the girl, if you end the game when the MC don't kiss her.

Yeah, that's fair. I think choices that make sense contextually and within the flow of the story are good, but if the only outcome from making them is "sex/no sex" then of course people will just rewind and do it again until they get the right answer (or use a walkthrough), which to me has the unfortunate effect of making the "story" part of the game more or less linear with filler added to give the illusion of consequences and the impression that this avatar you're conversing with has a personality rather than a script - but maybe that's not entirely a bad thing (anyone who plays a certain genre enough will of course begin to identify "gamification" patterns that can be all but impossible to remove). Not every story needs to be emotionally affecting, and maybe that's not why most people play these games.

Which fall back to what I said about bad consequences. The same should be applied for good ones, and you'll not have sex because you made a good choice, but because you made many of them. Something like :
You're on a date with the girl, you talk, you act, you've to face a total of 10 choices being globally "good one", "neutral one", "bad one" ; with potentially one or to "what a wonderful move you just made !".

• More than 3 bad choices, sorry, you're terrible she don't want to see you again ;
• Less than 3 good choices, she don't hate you, but you're clearly not the right for her, let's stay friends ?
• Between 3 and 5 good choices, she'll kiss you and want to see you again ;
• Between 6 and 9 good choices, she'll give you a blowjob ;
• All 10 good choices ? Score, you'll have sex on the first date.

Of course, there will be compulsive players that will want to have sex on the first date, but I'm sure that most players will agree with the blowjob, or even just the kiss. It don't close the door, you're just playing the game your way, having the feeling that you're slowly seducing the girl and not just here to fuck her.
Anyway, the next date will make you starts with part of the earned points ; enough to make you have at least the next step this time, unless you make really bad moves. So if she just kissed you on the first date, you'll have at least a blowjob this time.
And so on for a total of four/five consecutive dates, even if you had sex on the first day. She want to know you, so before being effectively involved in a relationship, you'll have to pass through those dates and at least not fail them. Those who goes fast will have sex with her everytime, the others will have a kiss, then a blowjob, then finally have sex.

Now you're on a relationship, the goal isn't anymore to have sex with her, but to try this position, or that kink. This going on a day basis, through the discussion you'll have with her.
Let's take "anal sex" as example. You've past some times together and convinced that watch porn together is funny and kinky. You've the possibility to choose a video purely with anal, or a video where you know that there's ass play, or... well, there's a lot of possibilities. You'll also talk about it, commenting the video, immediately, or few days later with something like, "Oh, I crossed a girl today, she remind me of the girls we saw ; you know, the one that was loving so much to have a plug in her ass". Slowly you'll make the girl thing about it, and the outcome will depend of the choice you made.
When she'll accept to do anal, and how opened to the idea she'll be, depending of you. It can be in a week like it can be in a month, depending if you talked about it often or not. Like she can really want it, because you made some good points, or she can do it to please you because you just convinced her to give it a try, and like it's your birthday, let's start a tradition, your anal birthday gift. In the same times, if you made too many bad choices, it will just never happen ; commenting a video by saying, "now I want to ravage your ass", isn't a good way to start opening a mind to this idea.
Here again, some players will be compulsive and want to have it fast, with the girl totally agreeing, while others will prefer to build their own story, and will already be satisfied by it being a birthday gift ; yet the birthday gift can become more than if you continue talking about it, proposing other way to do it that she'll perhaps prefer, or saying that she seemed to have liked it at least a little.
It's up to the player to choose what seem to be the right choice depending of what he want. This knowing that globally speaking, unless you make a really dick move, you'll not close the door, just delay it and/or lower the result at first.

Too many authors want to go too fast. It's the update with anal sex, you'll have anal sex if you make one choice right ; and don't worry, the choice will be between, "let's have anal sex" and "I'm tired, let's just sleep tonight".
Perhaps that I'm an exception, but I prefer when it's more subtle.

I suppose if I were to write both branches well enough to make them more or less of equal quality, that would be its own sort of stakes for the player of which path to take even if they can make the choice multiple times. Could always split the baby and just include both ways to play.

I think that, except at their paroxysm (see above), choices should have small consequences.
You picked the right color, she'll be happy during the rest of the day, perhaps even more enthusiastic when you'll have sex. Then it's all, the next day she'll be back to her normal self, just a little more happy than usual. And the more you'll make good choice, the more her normal self will be full of happiness.
And if you pick the wrong color, next time you'll be at the restaurant she could say something like, "and please, since you don't even know what color I prefer, let me choose what I'll eat". Then again, if you tend to make only the wrong choice, she'll be less and less happy ; you don't care enough about her, do you even really love her ?

Like I implied, it's a slow build. No real wrong choice, no real right one either. A grinding mechanism in a way, but that don't feel wrong or boring, because it don't rely on repetitive action, just on the need to do the right choice more often than the wrong one.
All of those choice being inside scenes that will happen only once or, for the "watch porn together" by example, that will defer enough to not feel repetitive even if, globally speaking, the action is the same.

 

[79flavors]

I've been thinking about this a bit today... and I get that the right answer is to have a game with meaningful choices. However, I still somewhat feel that a lot of devs just aren't up to that task - but feel drawn into doing it that way anyway since "good games include choices".

I wonder if the answer is perhaps to have an gated unlock system game, where the player can repeat "failed" content as many times as they like - but doing it "right" unlocks new content.

In a lot of ways, it would reward players experimenting a bit - since those who are willing to pick the "wrong" choices will see the most content. Whereas the walkthrough crowd can complete the game in record time and see the story as intended (then go to the forums and complain that this release was too short).

Beyond that, the dev can have a bit of fun - because the "other" paths won't necessarily have to be consistent within the overall story.

I suppose I'm thinking of the porn version of

You must be registered to see the links

, which might work better if the player is unable to play the "right" solution until they play through at least one or two failing options first.

 

[desmosome]

One thing I like to do (and haven't seen often) is changing dialogues or even character behavior depending on decisions made earlier. It's an easy way to make decisions meaningful without the necessity to do a lot of extra render. You can basically change the whole topic of a conversation without adding a single additional render.

This is something I wanted to state in my earlier post but kept it out for brevity's sake. Triggers/flags, rather than point variables, are what really gives players the feeling of consequential choices. It can be as simple as modified dialogue for one scene later, an offshoot branch that merges back soon after, or even a entirely separate branch. 79flavors and Avaron made great points as well.

It just comes down to picking the right gameplay mechanics for the story you want to tell, and how willing you are to increase the workload to get the desired results.

 

[InCompleteController]

I wonder if the answer is perhaps to have an gated unlock system game, where the player can repeat "failed" content as many times as they like - but doing it "right" unlocks new content.

I feel like word "failed" puts you in the wrong mindset. A choice shouldn't be about missing out, choosing one thing over another, although the player might not know the full extent of the choice.

It's fine to have a harem ending if you do everything perfectly, although I would prefer that the VN allows for the player to make a few mistakes. Just don't make the endings for the individual girls the same as the harem ending, but skipping the scenes with the other girls and the group as a whole.

If I pick one of the girls over the harem, then give me a scene that's about them. I don't want some bland ending where the girl just fills up a quarter of the screen because the other girls are obviously missing.

Although if you really want to have missable content then just let the players unlock an assist mode by completing the game. Something that helps them pick the perfect responses for whichever path they choose.

I suppose I'm thinking of the porn version of

You must be registered to see the links

, which might work better if the player is unable to play the "right" solution until they play through at least one or two failing options first.

Instead of repeating content until they succeed, why not just give them a scene that can't fail?

Let's say the VN has a girl that loves adventure novels. Throughout the game there are 3 points where the player can bring the girl a gift. Whenever you pick an adventure novel to bring her you will get the "success" scene, which might just be a kiss. If you bring her any other book you will get the "failure" scene.
If you haven't succeeded yet, she could remark that it's not her favorite genre but that she will give it a try. If you have already succeeded once then perhaps add a remark that you should know adventure books are her favorite and maybe ask why you picked a different genre.
Now, if the player has gotten 2 wrong answers by the 3rd attempt just don't give them an option. Instead, how about adding a scene where the player character buys all the gift options (romance, horror and adventure) or a simple gift card?
This way you have now ensured that the player has successfully bought the girl an adventure book that she likes, which you can then bring up later in the game.

Once the game is over, unlock the assist mode that let's the player know that she wants adventure books, so that they can get those minor kiss scenes.

 

[Deleted member 609064]

I prefer fewer branches with better writing than many branches with hokey choices and "filler quality" writing.

Too many "games" have choices just to have choices. Not because the choices will meaningfully tell a unique and entertaining story. I have been writing a couple of stories and I think they stand well on their own. I do see major plot moments where the story could go in another direction but part of me feels like this will undermine the main story I am trying to tell.

Imagine any of your favorite well-known movies with iconic stories. Now gamify it and insert some choices for the viewer and ask yourself it the overall production will be just as good as without choices.

I am not a game developer. I am a writer. I want to tell (and read/play) great stories.

 

[BanksyBoyz]

One thing I like to do (and haven't seen often) is changing dialogues or even character behavior depending on decisions made earlier. It's an easy way to make decisions meaningful without the necessity to do a lot of extra render. You can basically change the whole topic of a conversation without adding a single additional render.

That makes a lot of sense. I suppose there's a fundamental question in all this about what your vision of the experience is: do you want the player to feel like it's "their story", giving them maximum control over outcomes and feeling like it has an impact on the world (perhaps like a traditional branching RPG), or do you have a specific story you want to tell and the player is more of a passive participant in it (like a traditional novel)? I think I find myself more in the latter camp, but perhaps, as another commenter has said, giving them the power to "fill in the details" with specific choices on how to approach a situation would be an effective middle ground, combining that with this idea to have dialogue altered by past decisions to give the impression that this version of the story is "yours" while still staying true to the narrative seems like it could be quite effective and wouldn't require giving up much control over your vision of the story.

 

[BanksyBoyz]

Of course, but when the game try to be realist, then doesn't he need to be it even for this ?
I don't say that all games should works like that, but it don't surprise me when they do, and I'll not dislike them solely for this.




That's the main point of the problem. The consequences of a choice matters, but the offered options matters equally.
What was an author thinking while giving such choice ? Few players will choice this option, and most of those who'll do it, will do it only once, to see if choices really have consequences. But, perhaps more importantly, what was the player expecting while picking it ? It's obvious that the answer will not be, "great, come take my ass, starting now I'm your dirty anal sex slave".

I think that it's more the fear to write a simple kinetic novel, than anything else. Some kind of, "I'll give them choice, this way they'll see my story as being an effective game". But then, they've to face the truth, if you give choices, you've to take count of them ; at least for a time, the story will not be the same if you kiss the girl, and if you don't. Which obviously imply more works on the story, and more complexity to make the game.
Therefore, some (too many) authors goes for the easiest solution. Either they make totally obvious choice, knowing that 99% of the players will follow them, and that the other will perhaps complain about a lack of constancy but it doesn't matter, it's only 1% of them. Or they go for the game over solution ; you don't need to write a variation where the MC haven't kissed the girl, if you end the game when the MC don't kiss her.




Which fall back to what I said about bad consequences. The same should be applied for good ones, and you'll not have sex because you made a good choice, but because you made many of them. Something like :
You're on a date with the girl, you talk, you act, you've to face a total of 10 choices being globally "good one", "neutral one", "bad one" ; with potentially one or to "what a wonderful move you just made !".

• More than 3 bad choices, sorry, you're terrible she don't want to see you again ;
• Less than 3 good choices, she don't hate you, but you're clearly not the right for her, let's stay friends ?
• Between 3 and 5 good choices, she'll kiss you and want to see you again ;
• Between 6 and 9 good choices, she'll give you a blowjob ;
• All 10 good choices ? Score, you'll have sex on the first date.

Of course, there will be compulsive players that will want to have sex on the first date, but I'm sure that most players will agree with the blowjob, or even just the kiss. It don't close the door, you're just playing the game your way, having the feeling that you're slowly seducing the girl and not just here to fuck her.
Anyway, the next date will make you starts with part of the earned points ; enough to make you have at least the next step this time, unless you make really bad moves. So if she just kissed you on the first date, you'll have at least a blowjob this time.
And so on for a total of four/five consecutive dates, even if you had sex on the first day. She want to know you, so before being effectively involved in a relationship, you'll have to pass through those dates and at least not fail them. Those who goes fast will have sex with her everytime, the others will have a kiss, then a blowjob, then finally have sex.

Now you're on a relationship, the goal isn't anymore to have sex with her, but to try this position, or that kink. This going on a day basis, through the discussion you'll have with her.
Let's take "anal sex" as example. You've past some times together and convinced that watch porn together is funny and kinky. You've the possibility to choose a video purely with anal, or a video where you know that there's ass play, or... well, there's a lot of possibilities. You'll also talk about it, commenting the video, immediately, or few days later with something like, "Oh, I crossed a girl today, she remind me of the girls we saw ; you know, the one that was loving so much to have a plug in her ass". Slowly you'll make the girl thing about it, and the outcome will depend of the choice you made.
When she'll accept to do anal, and how opened to the idea she'll be, depending of you. It can be in a week like it can be in a month, depending if you talked about it often or not. Like she can really want it, because you made some good points, or she can do it to please you because you just convinced her to give it a try, and like it's your birthday, let's start a tradition, your anal birthday gift. In the same times, if you made too many bad choices, it will just never happen ; commenting a video by saying, "now I want to ravage your ass", isn't a good way to start opening a mind to this idea.
Here again, some players will be compulsive and want to have it fast, with the girl totally agreeing, while others will prefer to build their own story, and will already be satisfied by it being a birthday gift ; yet the birthday gift can become more than if you continue talking about it, proposing other way to do it that she'll perhaps prefer, or saying that she seemed to have liked it at least a little.
It's up to the player to choose what seem to be the right choice depending of what he want. This knowing that globally speaking, unless you make a really dick move, you'll not close the door, just delay it and/or lower the result at first.

Too many authors want to go too fast. It's the update with anal sex, you'll have anal sex if you make one choice right ; and don't worry, the choice will be between, "let's have anal sex" and "I'm tired, let's just sleep tonight".
Perhaps that I'm an exception, but I prefer when it's more subtle.




I think that, except at their paroxysm (see above), choices should have small consequences.
You picked the right color, she'll be happy during the rest of the day, perhaps even more enthusiastic when you'll have sex. Then it's all, the next day she'll be back to her normal self, just a little more happy than usual. And the more you'll make good choice, the more her normal self will be full of happiness.
And if you pick the wrong color, next time you'll be at the restaurant she could say something like, "and please, since you don't even know what color I prefer, let me choose what I'll eat". Then again, if you tend to make only the wrong choice, she'll be less and less happy ; you don't care enough about her, do you even really love her ?

Like I implied, it's a slow build. No real wrong choice, no real right one either. A grinding mechanism in a way, but that don't feel wrong or boring, because it don't rely on repetitive action, just on the need to do the right choice more often than the wrong one.
All of those choice being inside scenes that will happen only once or, for the "watch porn together" by example, that will defer enough to not feel repetitive even if, globally speaking, the action is the same.

I appreciate this thoughtful and thorough response! I think you make some really good points here. Having choices that accumulate over time and the slow, subtle build over the course of many smaller choices rather than one big one that attempts to mimic real world relationships definitely seems like the way to approach that particular problem. The more I'm thinking about this and reading through all your guys' very valuable feedback, I'm definitely leaning toward focusing on the central, linear narrative, and building in subtle shifts to details and conversations - including branching narratives only at specific, minor decision points that enhance player immersion (e.g. you need to get person X out of the picture and you have a couple different ways to do it that will shape how the build up portion of the experience takes place, with resulting dialogue or subtle behavioral consequences in the eventual climax of that storyline, but that doesn't fundamentally alter the outcome).

 

[recreation]

That makes a lot of sense. I suppose there's a fundamental question in all this about what your vision of the experience is: do you want the player to feel like it's "their story", giving them maximum control over outcomes and feeling like it has an impact on the world (perhaps like a traditional branching RPG), or do you have a specific story you want to tell and the player is more of a passive participant in it (like a traditional novel)? I think I find myself more in the latter camp, but perhaps, as another commenter has said, giving them the power to "fill in the details" with specific choices on how to approach a situation would be an effective middle ground, combining that with this idea to have dialogue altered by past decisions to give the impression that this version of the story is "yours" while still staying true to the narrative seems like it could be quite effective and wouldn't require giving up much control over your vision of the story.

Exactly, I had it planned from the beginning, BM is quite a linear game, but I give the player choices that alter dialogues in the later game, the plan is to make some of the characters change their behavior towards the mc completely over time, the scenes will mostly be the same, but one character will either be aggressive or passive for example.
There are other choices that alter complete scenes too, but they're mostly late additions, stuff that made sense after thinking about it, and other stuff to shut up some cry-babies^^

 

[BanksyBoyz]

I've been thinking about this a bit today... and I get that the right answer is to have a game with meaningful choices. However, I still somewhat feel that a lot of devs just aren't up to that task - but feel drawn into doing it that way anyway since "good games include choices".

I wonder if the answer is perhaps to have an gated unlock system game, where the player can repeat "failed" content as many times as they like - but doing it "right" unlocks new content.

In a lot of ways, it would reward players experimenting a bit - since those who are willing to pick the "wrong" choices will see the most content. Whereas the walkthrough crowd can complete the game in record time and see the story as intended (then go to the forums and complain that this release was too short).

Beyond that, the dev can have a bit of fun - because the "other" paths won't necessarily have to be consistent within the overall story.

I suppose I'm thinking of the porn version of

You must be registered to see the links

, which might work better if the player is unable to play the "right" solution until they play through at least one or two failing options first.

This brings to mind the "scene end" screens in Detroit: Become Human, where you see the many possible branches of the tree and then your own decisions and how they rippled through the decision matrix (both giving the player feedback on how they could potentially approach it the next time, while also seeing how all their decisions flowed into each other). It's a pretty cool mechanic, though to your point, pretty ambitious for a single individual to pull off.

Spoiler: Detroit Image

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[BanksyBoyz]

I prefer fewer branches with better writing than many branches with hokey choices and "filler quality" writing.

Too many "games" have choices just to have choices. Not because the choices will meaningfully tell a unique and entertaining story. I have been writing a couple of stories and I think they stand well on their own. I do see major plot moments where the story could go in another direction but part of me feels like this will undermine the main story I am trying to tell.

Imagine any of your favorite well-known movies with iconic stories. Now gamify it and insert some choices for the viewer and ask yourself it the overall production will be just as good as without choices.

I am not a game developer. I am a writer. I want to tell (and read/play) great stories.

I think this is generally how I feel about it as well, though I can certainly appreciate that people may view these experiences differently (some may be in it of the "gamey" parts of the experience rather than the more literary parts - so, as ever, you can't hope to please everyone and are probably best off doing what you feel passionately about and letting the chips fall where they may).

 

[Deleted member 609064]

I think this is generally how I feel about it as well, though I can certainly appreciate that people may view these experiences differently (some may be in it of the "gamey" parts of the experience rather than the more literary parts - so, as ever, you can't hope to please everyone and are probably best off doing what you feel passionately about and letting the chips fall where they may).

I'm not a great writer (yet). I think a lot of this comes from people not being very good writers or lacking confidence in the story they are trying to tell.

Maybe that is just my bias. I love a great story with great art. I don't need walkthroughs and complex decision trees that mean that I have to replay the game multiple times to see all of the content, and if I do, there is no guarantee that any of the additional playthroughs are anywhere as good as the first time I completed the "game".

 

[BanksyBoyz]

I'm not a great writer (yet). I think a lot of this comes from people not being very good writers or lacking confidence in the story they are trying to tell.

Maybe that is just my bias. I love a great story with great art. I don't need walkthroughs and complex decision trees that mean that I have to replay the game multiple times to see all of the content, and if I do, there is no guarantee that any of the additional playthroughs are anywhere as good as the first time I completed the "game".

I've never written anything of much length, so I'm not sure that I am either - but I suppose there's only one way to find out for sure! I'm with you on the story - give me a good story over a bunch of random ham-fisted sex scenes jammed into as little narration as possible, even if it means completely eliminating my ability to control the story or chase 10 women at the same time.