Others Netoria Tactics 2 [Demo] [Apollo Seven]

[elliochness]

As far as NTR fans enjoying the content or not, honestly I've completely given up on it. They didn't like the first game much and I was sticking pretty hard to tropes there. When I made this game I decided to just ignore how NTRy it felt.

I'm surprised to hear this as I thought the NTR content if the first game was great and why I was looking forward to the sequel. Whatever else I figure you deserve to hear some praise.

 

[Gari Fuze]

I'm surprised to hear this as I thought the NTR content if the first game was great and why I was looking forward to the sequel. Whatever else I figure you deserve to hear some praise.

I have seen one creator that tried to do everything that people asked for, the game turned to be awful beyond measure. Author/Artist should have their own vision/idea, if it does not exist what is even the point of making games. Some feedback might be valuable, some should be outright discarded.

 

[Dungeridoo]

I'm surprised to hear this as I thought the NTR content if the first game was great and why I was looking forward to the sequel. Whatever else I figure you deserve to hear some praise.

Right? Netoria 1 is one of the best NTR games around. There are some small things to criticize here and there, but suggesting the NTR content is anything less than fantastic is absurd. It raised the bar for my standards in porn games.

Netoria 2 feels like a completely different genre of game.

 

[Apollo Seven]

Right? Netoria 1 is one of the best NTR games around. There are some small things to criticize here and there, but suggesting the NTR content is anything less than fantastic is absurd. It raised the bar for my standards in porn games.

Netoria 2 feels like a completely different genre of game.

Regardless of how the first game was received, a sequel was always going to be different in terms of mechanics and tone since I'm primarily make games to have fun making them. And as such I tend to try to make new ones different from other things I've done. Hence changing the visual style from Welsh inspired to Persian, changing the story to be less dour, focusing on the POV system as the most important mechanic in the game, changing the combat a lot, etc.

 

[NotaGayyy]

Regardless of how the first game was received, a sequel was always going to be different in terms of mechanics and tone since I'm primarily make games to have fun making them. And as such I tend to try to make new ones different from other things I've done. Hence changing the visual style from Welsh inspired to Persian, changing the story to be less dour, focusing on the POV system as the most important mechanic in the game, changing the combat a lot, etc.

that's the way, your games typical stand out from other and remind me of good forgotten japanese games like Sangokushi Sousouden and princess maker etc

I cant belive you're the creator of TF Card Battle as well.

 

[Survion]

As far as NTR fans enjoying the content or not, honestly I've completely given up on it. They didn't like the first game much and I was sticking pretty hard to tropes there. When I made this game I decided to just ignore how NTRy it felt.

Let me get this straight, because some people didn't like the first game you decided to completely ignore those fans who did and throw out everything that made them like the game in the first place?
Point taken, guess I shouldn't have supported it. I'll be more careful with creators from now on.

 

[Tiredpuff]

Let me get this straight, because some people didn't like the first game you decided to completely ignore those fans who did and throw out everything that made them like the game in the first place?
Point taken, guess I shouldn't have supported it. I'll be more careful with creators from now on.

It's very clearly not what he's saying. Trying a different way of writing and focusing on different themes and mechanics is not the same as ignoring the fans of the previous game, the dev is clearly here having a civil conversation with everyone and he's pretty active on the game's discord as well.

 

[Apollo Seven]

Let me get this straight, because some people didn't like the first game you decided to completely ignore those fans who did and throw out everything that made them like the game in the first place?
Point taken, guess I shouldn't have supported it. I'll be more careful with creators from now on.

No, I'm saying the opposite. If you read feedback on the first game, what people were fans of was not the content I added to make the game more NTR-y. They like the groping system, they like how the story outcomes are determined by the gameplay, they like the art, they like the characters and writing.

That's all stuff I kept and expounded upon for the sequel. What I didn't keep was bending the story and tone to fit an NTR formula, which resulted in lots of things people generally don't like in the first game. Things like the the second half of the game's story which was all designed around putting Carwyn through further misery and loss and which no one really liked.

So by ditching pegging the game to basic NTR tropes, I can focus on making the story good and let it go wherever is most satisfying instead of what's the most NTR. Of course, any change results in some people not liking them, but it's my duty to make Netoria Tactics 2 as good as possible, not just please the specific people who liked specific elements of the first game.

 

[Survion]

Trying a different way of writing and focusing on different themes and mechanics is not the same as ignoring the fans of the previous game,

It is when he ditch out the NTR elements that made the game likable in the first place.
I am not against innovating itself, that's not my point.

No, I'm saying the opposite. If you read feedback on the first game, what people were fans of was not the content I added to make the game more NTR-y. They like the groping system, they like how the story outcomes are determined by the gameplay, they like the art, they like the characters and writing.

That's all stuff I kept and expounded upon for the sequel. What I didn't keep was bending the story and tone to fit an NTR formula, which resulted in lots of things people generally don't like in the first game. Things like the the second half of the game's story which was all designed around putting Carwyn through further misery and loss and which no one really liked.

So by ditching pegging the game to basic NTR tropes, I can focus on making the story good and let it go wherever is most satisfying instead of what's the most NTR. Of course, any change results in some people not liking them, but it's my duty to make Netoria Tactics 2 as good as possible, not just please the specific people who liked specific elements of the first game.

I strongly disagree. Yes the gameplay, art, characters and writing was extremely good but it was precisely because it fited and expanded the NTR genre so well. You can see in this thread many people saying they liked it and I did as well, it's not that your game was good despite the NTR.
Even regarding the elements you say people liked I don't think they are better now. Aside from the art those seem like a huge downgrade from the first game.

First the characters, the most interesting for me was the older woman but wasn't enough for me to want to play her POV past the demo, the other guy in the party is after the FMC but he doesn't feel like a rival at all, the relationship between the MC and FMC was what interested me but not the characters themselves, to me feels like they are just there, so far the kobold Joe from the first game is more interesting than all of these.

Regarding the writing and story drifting by gameplay those are worse for the same reason, it's determined by a VN style choice of POV. In the first game what mattered was how you conducted the battles, letting the guys grope Gwen and keeping Carwyn away from her to get better stats to face enemies or struggle with debuffs in order to protect her? Even the class Gwen would upgrade to was different if she was a slut. But in this game, you do a POV choice and that's it. Sure there's a normal and corruption route for each but with those struggles and Carwyn proximity system gone it's feel more like a dragged on choice than the gameplay being impactful. Even if you ignore the choice and just focus on the story there's so much stuff happening at the same time that it feels less like a story progressing and more like a bomb that just blew up. But the biggest mistake of all is forcing divisive content like TSF on routes instead of keeping it optional and driven by player actions like in the first game, now POV and routes that would be of interest are non-playable by those who dislike this type of content. You're not making a content optional by forcing it into a route, you're locking players out of entire routes and worsening the experience of the game.

About the second half my only critic of it was that the gameplay stopped being impactiful, my sugestion at the time was that since Gwen was already having sex with the guys she could hide away with them in the middle of battle making some of those harder instead of just more CGs for groping, but I think it was good anyway.

And I think you are wrong classifying the NTR as just an element in the first game, it was the core and averything else sustained it. By ditching the core the elements scattered across the product without having a set structure.

I took my time to read the reviews of the first game and now I'm more certain of my opinion than ever. Some of them are just by NTR haters that every NTR game thread in this site has, games with good art and gameplay attract their attention and they go in to complain about NTR. You can identify those by opening their profiles, posts are all on generic harem games and complaints on NTR games.

My first post sounded passive-aggressive and I'm sorry about that, I just felt betrayed reading that comment and wrote on a hothead. This one is a genuine criticism by a previous supporter.

 

[Apollo Seven]

I strongly disagree. Yes the gameplay, art, characters and writing was extremely good but it was precisely because it fited and expanded the NTR genre so well. You can see in this thread many people saying they liked it and I did as well, it's not that your game was good despite the NTR.
Even regarding the elements you say people liked I don't think they are better now. Aside from the art those seem like a huge downgrade from the first game.

First the characters, the most interesting for me was the older woman but wasn't enough for me to want to play her POV past the demo, the other guy in the party is after the FMC but he doesn't feel like a rival at all, the relationship between the MC and FMC was what interested me but not the characters themselves, to me feels like they are just there, so far the kobold Joe from the first game is more interesting than all of these.

Regarding the writing and story drifting by gameplay those are worse for the same reason, it's determined by a VN style choice of POV. In the first game what mattered was how you conducted the battles, letting the guys grope Gwen and keeping Carwyn away from her to get better stats to face enemies or struggle with debuffs in order to protect her? Even the class Gwen would upgrade to was different if she was a slut. But in this game, you do a POV choice and that's it. Sure there's a normal and corruption route for each but with those struggles and Carwyn proximity system gone it's feel more like a dragged on choice than the gameplay being impactful. Even if you ignore the choice and just focus on the story there's so much stuff happening at the same time that it feels less like a story progressing and more like a bomb that just blew up. But the biggest mistake of all is forcing divisive content like TSF on routes instead of keeping it optional and driven by player actions like in the first game, now POV and routes that would be of interest are non-playable by those who dislike this type of content. You're not making a content optional by forcing it into a route, you're locking players out of entire routes and worsening the experience of the game.

About the second half my only critic of it was that the gameplay stopped being impactiful, my sugestion at the time was that since Gwen was already having sex with the guys she could hide away with them in the middle of battle making some of those harder instead of just more CGs for groping, but I think it was good anyway.

And I think you are wrong classifying the NTR as just an element in the first game, it was the core and averything else sustained it. By ditching the core the elements scattered across the product without having a set structure.

I took my time to read the reviews of the first game and now I'm more certain of my opinion than ever. Some of them are just by NTR haters that every NTR game thread in this site has, games with good art and gameplay attract their attention and they go in to complain about NTR. You can identify those by opening their profiles, posts are all on generic harem games and complaints on NTR games.

My first post sounded passive-aggressive and I'm sorry about that, I just felt betrayed reading that comment and wrote on a hothead. This one is a genuine criticism by a previous supporter.

I almost didn't respond to this because I don't think this conversation is going to go anywhere productive, but eh, I like responding to people.

I think there's a miscommunication about what I mean when i say the NTR wasn't the draw of the first game. All the mechanics were designed around the NTR, and that's what people liked. Of course it was the core of the game, that was the point. But people didn't really love the game because the drama bewteen Carwyn and Gwen and Owain/whoever was super compelling. Sure some people did, but just as many people liked it despite of the NTR story. And people who do LOVE NTR often weren't big fans of the game because the NTR content wasn't NTR-y enough for them. So I could have gone and made it even more NTR-y, which to me just means straying even less from the fundamental tropes, but that seemed like the wrong approach. Better to take what I think really worked about the first game, the focus on the in battle mechanics as route progression and story telling tools and apply them to another concept. I've talked about why I settled on the POV system in the end plenty in this thread, but I think it's really cool and lets me do some very interesting story telling. If you don't like it, then don't, whatever. But you should probably wait until you actually play the entire experience and not just the demo before pining about how I destroyed the series.

Regarding the writing and story drifting by gameplay those are worse for the same reason, it's determined by a VN style choice of POV. In the first game what mattered was how you conducted the battles, letting the guys grope Gwen and keeping Carwyn away from her to get better stats to face enemies or struggle with debuffs in order to protect her? Even the class Gwen would upgrade to was different if she was a slut. But in this game, you do a POV choice and that's it.

This is just so fundementally wrong I'm not sure you even played the demo. In Act 1 of Netoria Tactics 2 the grope system determing route progression is still there, and incentives to do or not do it are still there. This mechanic is ported almost straight through in some cases, Azar even has Lone Wolf on his POV. And this game has WAAAAAAY more route based class changes, I quintupled down on that. It's basically a core feature at this point. Everyone's class in Act 2 changes depending on what route you did in Act 1. And you'll just have to take my word on it, but in Act 2 every POV has their own unique in battle mechanics to determine what routes progress. This is the fundemental idea of the series in my mind.

But the biggest mistake of all is forcing divisive content like TSF on routes instead of keeping it optional and driven by player actions like in the first game, now POV and routes that would be of interest are non-playable by those who dislike this type of content. You're not making a content optional by forcing it into a route, you're locking players out of entire routes and worsening the experience of the game.

I don't force anything. Just don't play Zaman POV, every other piece of TF content is comepletely optional. If your complaint is that Zaman is the "NTR protagonist" so you have to play him, he's not. This is the kind of stuff I was talking about when making the game less focused on NTR. I already wrote Carwyn's sad cuck story, go play it again if that was the only kind of story you like. I made Zaman POV explicitely soley about TF content so I could actually write a compelling story and character arc about it instead of the mess that Netoria 1's TF content ended up being.

And I think you are wrong classifying the NTR as just an element in the first game, it was the core and averything else sustained it. By ditching the core the elements scattered across the product without having a set structure.

The set structure everything is based around this time is the POV system. I don't care honestly if you don't like that, I think it's awesome.

Anyway, it sounds like you just played the demo, which is fine. But that's a very small slice of what I'm making here and also pretty outdated. There's not really much communication we can do about what I plan the game to be and what the future content is except for just asking you to trust me. And if you don't then that's okay, you can not play the game, play the game, whatever.

 

[Survion]

I think there's a miscommunication about what I mean when i say the NTR wasn't the draw of the first game. All the mechanics were designed around the NTR, and that's what people liked. Of course it was the core of the game, that was the point. But people didn't really love the game because the drama bewteen Carwyn and Gwen and Owain/whoever was super compelling. Sure some people did, but just as many people liked it despite of the NTR story. And people who do LOVE NTR often weren't big fans of the game because the NTR content wasn't NTR-y enough for them. So I could have gone and made it even more NTR-y, which to me just means straying even less from the fundamental tropes, but that seemed like the wrong approach. Better to take what I think really worked about the first game, the focus on the in battle mechanics as route progression and story telling tools and apply them to another concept. I've talked about why I settled on the POV system in the end plenty in this thread, but I think it's really cool and lets me do some very interesting story telling. If you don't like it, then don't, whatever.

Ok that's definitely clearer now, I now understand what was your vision. I did liked the NTR of the game but I think this whole "more or less NTR" discussion people bring here sometimes is just stupid, for me is a "yes or no" kind of thing. And yeah I don't like this POV system.

This is just so fundementally wrong I'm not sure you even played the demo. In Act 1 of Netoria Tactics 2 the grope system determing route progression is still there, and incentives to do or not do it are still there. This mechanic is ported almost straight through in some cases, Azar even has Lone Wolf on his POV. And this game has WAAAAAAY more route based class changes, I quintupled down on that. It's basically a core feature at this point. Everyone's class in Act 2 changes depending on what route you did in Act 1. And you'll just have to take my word on it, but in Act 2 every POV has their own unique in battle mechanics to determine what routes progress. This is the fundemental idea of the series in my mind.

What I meant here is the initial classes being tied to the POV choice, in order to make the FMC start the game as an assassin I have to choose the right POV for it which I don't think is a good way to do it. I could think of different ways but I don't want to drag this on longer. And maybe it's just a biased vision by me not liking the POV system anyway.

I don't force anything. Just don't play Zaman POV, every other piece of TF content is comepletely optional. If your complaint is that Zaman is the "NTR protagonist" so you have to play him, he's not. This is the kind of stuff I was talking about when making the game less focused on NTR. I already wrote Carwyn's sad cuck story, go play it again if that was the only kind of story you like. I made Zaman POV explicitely soley about TF content so I could actually write a compelling story and character arc about it instead of the mess that Netoria 1's TF content ended up being.

This is where we disagree in a fundamental level, no point in dragging further.

But you should probably wait until you actually play the entire experience and not just the demo before pining about how I destroyed the series.

Yeah I don't think I will, since the only routes I found interesting has content that I don't like seeing the game offers me nothing. I simply got a notification from the thread and ended up seeing that post, I'll mute the thread after this conversation is over.

My point with this conversation was not to ask for changes or anything but to discuss why I think some game design choices don't work well, and it was a good one, made me understand some of the thinking process.

 

[ddf]

but just as many people liked it despite of the NTR story

I am one of those.
Not a NTR fan, but I really liked how all plot choices were addressed by gameplay only.
Thank you, it was a great experience!